Im sad that the 20% less paranoia plan didn't pass (probably because it was proposed so much later). Still, I'm fine with the qi overflow instead of the spiritual i guess.
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
Didn't have time to notice and make the alt plan until much later, and you really shouldn't be fine with what's basically using a free action on Qi cultivation instead of Spiritual, especially since overflow like this is practically not happening again.
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- Required Location
Just to be 100 per cent sure:
If our expenses are greater than our current bank, you are asking us how to proceed instead of autoselling the mirror to cover the costs, right?
- Location
- United States of America
It has become painfully evident that we are talking about 2 entirely different things here. I'm not arguing against using PLR for it's effects, or if we can't detect the enemy to flush them out. The situation you are talking about seems to be extremely different than the situation I am talking about.
I'm talking about the 1 v 1's in the top 16 competition, where, presumably, Ling Qi and the opponent are plopped into an arena that is large enough for a long distance archer to achieve an insurmountable advantage. Or, in the alternative, an arena where an archer can achieve an insurmountable advantage. Which means that the opponent and Ling Qi are presumably at least a turn apart at full running speed, and perhaps even 2 or 3 turns apart.
In this situation, using PLR as the first thing we do most likely lose the first strike because it gives the initiative to our opponent. The moment we pop PLR the opponent most assuredly knows where we are and the distances involved. So he waits, runs away, or moves towards us. However, we are forced to move towards him, and he knows this, or we are going to keep refreshing PLR wasting qi that he doesn't have to worry about.
We should know this, which puts the pressure on us to go find him and attack him. So when we pop PLR we also move towards his presumed location. 1/4 of the distance has been covered at this point between the two contestants. Opponent waits or moves towards us or move away.
If he stays put it is either because he can attack at the moment, or the distances are too far and he is willing to wait another turn to let us come closer.
If he moves towards us, it is presumably because he has some sort of ranged attack that will start wearing us down and he wants to get in range of it. We lose the first strike.
If he runs away, it is presumably because he wants to tire us out and have us chase him with PLR active, thus losing qi. we might be able to catch up to him eventually because we are faster, but that depends on the difference in speed and the size of the arena. And if he is running it can be assumed that he has a plan to use the distance to his advantage.
Using PLR right at the beginning forces us into a set of choices (move towards the opponent) but allows the opponent to choose the best option for his strategy in beating us. It creates a situation where the opponent knows what we are going to be doing but we don't know what the opponent is going to be doing.
I have no idea what strategy would see it as a positive to reveal to the opponent the location and speed of the stealthy and speedy Ling Qi. And forcing us into a position where we must do something but gives the opponent the choice of his preferred action is simply begging for the opponent to have the initiative and do the first strike.
I see that you are comparing the classical start of Ling Qi's strategy and trying to compare it to a situation where we need to set up our defenses as fast as possible. Which is befuddling because getting our debuff train up and going while maintaining a solid defense does not equal setting up our defense as fast as possible while preserving the first strike. And amusingly, with the Horror properly deployed, we can, if we so choose, set up our defense as fast as possible while preserving the first strike, in 2 turns. Other than FS, which to my recollection hasn't been used as a defensive mechanism and if so only far later in the fight.
Turn 1: MotV; HRA; CG
Turn 1 Horror: DWV
Turn 2: TRU; RS; TRD
In this manner, we set up MotV; HRA; CG; DWV; TRU; RS; TRD all within 2 turns. A total of 9 qi in two turns for exactly the same defensive effect as what the typical Ling Qi would have in 3 turns. And a much stronger 1st turn defensive set up if I say so myself.
So yes, I completely see a method to set up the entire defensive suite in 2 turns if we properly use the Horror and set it up before the conflict is joined. We probably don't want to do this against every Jack and Jill, but against Sun Liling, the saving of a turn for defensive setups will certainly give us the time to make a fight worth remembering.
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I mean, the Horror has no stealth capabilities. It also compromises our ability to sneak on an enemy that is actively searching for us. I'm confused by your little chart having two turn 1s, and using FVM before an enemy is in range is ill-advised because, as Arkeus pointed out, it -is- our first strike. Diapason is an important attack to land on enemies; it makes the rest of FVM and PLR much stronger. Step one of our debuff train.
What we do want in place before getting in range is PLR and Spring's End Aria. The first is awkward to setup mid-fight while being a really nice screen, the second enhances our first strike capability.
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- United States of America
Like... I'm confused by your confusion. The chart is specifically for in combat actions. We are fighting them. They have a turn to attack us as well. We used MotV because the enemy was in range and we were attacking. This isn't pre-conflict turns, this is actual conflict turns. It is completely based off of what Ark was doing, so if you have a complaint about using MotV talk to him as well.
As for the second "turn 1" that would be the Horror's turn because we built the horror before the conflict began so it also has a turn.
What we don't want before the fight begins is PLR, absolutely not. And Spring End's Aria is also fundamentally bad to set up before the fight begins. Like, I'm confused by the insistence to set up our defense and other buffs before the conflict. Inherently we will have less dice because the dot's won't apply and then we run into the problem of trying to maintain them 2 or 3 turns into the fight when we could be using PLR, Hoarfrost Caress, AE techs, or any number of things. Most of our defensive aspects are instants and responses meaning that they flourish when being used during a fight.
As for why we don't want to use PLR before the fight begins... I thought I adequately explained it in the previous post? Unless we are absolutely positive about how the fight is going down, how the opponent will attack, and when he will attack using PLR creates the situation where we must engage the opponent and the opponent doesn't have to engage us. It gives initiative and information to the opponent without gaining any real benefit other than the PLR screen, which against opponents where we need to worry about giving away information and initiative, pretty much any of the top contenders, means using PLR later to add to our defenses.
Spring's End Aria is similarly problematic because it is us singing. Singing is going to give away our position, there is no to ways about it. Spring's End Aria isn't a stealth song, it is very clear and very visible. It gives away our position, it gives away most likely our speed, and it gives the opponent the ability to predict, plan, and anticipate where we are coming from.
As for the Horror giving away our position, I don't follow you. The Horror is its own separate entity which can be spotted independently of us. That it can be spotted by an individual actively searching for it does not reveal our location, especially if we move it away from us. Or have it far enough behind us. Or have it anywhere other than where we are. It's one of the Horror's advantages actually, in that the opponent knows it's out there, but has to guess whether we are with it or separated from it.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
We had 1596 going into shopping spree for our talismans, but while we expended 1345, we also gained 300RSS from the sect GSS at the same time, and we gained 120RSS from the pill furnace. So 1596+300+120-1345= 671 RSS left. We then used 265 RSS for week 49/50, got a Cai GSS week 49, and got 100 RSS from pill furnace.
So: 671+ 500 + 100 - 265 = 1006 RSS left for current before this turn.
But yeah, Horror is going to cost us a fuckton for what is not usable at all.
We are talking about using PLR as a pre-fight buff here, like how we use the horror before the fight in your supposed big environment.
We are happy if the opponent run away, because it means they are going to be in optimal range to us for us slaughtering them. If they approach us to fight, or if they are revealed because they are hiding from stealth, we are also happy.
None of the possibilities where we use PLR to buff us up include losing first strike, because we would only use PLR to buff us up before a fight if we believe the opponent is not in range, and hopefully if we know where the opponent is.
Also, I don't believe your baseless belief that "archers can only win a fight if the terrain is set up for archers to win a fight", nor do I believe "the holodeck is going to be the same for every fights every years".
Wait, did you switch your argument on how we can have time to reach our opponent? This is why I am comparing pre-fight buffs and why we want to have our buffs up before we engage the enemy. Like how you want to prepare the horror before the fight. So in your scenario, you prepare the horror before we fight. I am saying we should also buff us up. We can have the buffs for minutes before we engage the enemy without issues.
I was comparing the first turns of a fight where we don't lose first strike, as you don't want to lose first strike, with or without pre-buff. If you want to lose first strike, then things changes... but that is still not all our defensive suit. Our defensive suite currently is MotV (full action), TRU (full action), PLR (full action), SEA (instant), HRA (instant), FS (instant), OwS (Instant, maybe too expensive unless we want to go scouting for the enemy), TRD (response), GC (response), RS (response). It seems you also switched our your argument about prebuffing as suddenly first strike no longer matters when we aren't talking about PLR, only about PLR?
Obviously SEA and PLR are very specific prebuff that might not be wanted depending on the circumstances.
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If we can assume we can take 1 turn to deploy the Horror and not lose us the first strike, I think we can assume we can take 1 turn to use Illustrious Phantasmal Festival and not lose us the first strike. In either case it seems the optimal place to do it would be just outside our range and the range of our enemy, since both compromise strategic level stealth over time. Neither compromises tactical level personal stealth for Ling Qi. The nature of PLR is that it disguises the user, so I think it would not automatically kick us out of stealth, so none of the SCS first strike or stealth bonuses are automatically imperiled.
Using a stealth turn 0 to drop some techs outside of engagement range, then moving in to engage in standard combat should be legal. This would be giving up first strike bonuses against an enemy with higher initiative, but there's what 1 person we're aware of who has that?
Using a stealth turn 0 to drop some techs outside of engagement range, then moving in to engage in standard combat should be legal. This would be giving up first strike bonuses against an enemy with higher initiative, but there's what 1 person we're aware of who has that?
- Location
- United States of America
Like wow... apparently there is a fire in the newsroom and no one is understanding each other. So let's try to step back and see where crossed wires occurred.
Your analysis had MotV, Dissonance, and Elegy within the confines of the turns that Ling Qi was taking. If your turn sequence has MotV, Dissonance, and Elegy then I am going to assume that conflict has already begun because there is no reason to lose first strike because we decided to not start off with our opponent in FVM. So I assumed that your turn analysis was in fact an in-combat turn analysis of what is likely to occur.
I responded with my own in-combat turn analysis of how we could achieve the same defensive position within 2 turns by using an out of turn action setting up the Horror.
Your previous turn analysis seemed to have nothing to do with pre-conflict buffing because 1/3 of it was offensive based attacks (MotV, dissonance, Elegy). If we are going on the offensive, then I am assuming that conflict has already started.
Assuming conflict had already started, I responded to your turn analysis and achieved the same defensive options in 2 turns rather than 3. I can not stress this enough, my turn analysis was in-combat as was your turn analysis. So let's not use in-combat analysis and try and say it correlates at all to pre-combat turn analysis... because it doesn't.
If your in-combat analysis was meant to demonstrate the need, or value, of buffing outside of combat to save us those actions then that was not communicated clearly to me at all.
If you want a turn analysis that involves pre-combat buffing, then it would look something like this.
Turn 1: Build Horror; HRA; TRD
Horror: DWV
Turn 2: TRU; RS; CG
Except that doesn't really work because that requires response actions, something that can't be done unless we have an attack to respond to. So then it plods on to 3 turns or 4 turns of just buffing ourselves up.
Most notably in this situation, building the Horror does not actually slow down our self-buffing, as it then takes it turns and places a buff where we would have spent an action doing it. A beautiful system.
Now, moving on to why we rarely, if ever, want to pre-buff with PLR because I consider that an absolute waste of pre-buffing and may actively be determinantal.
I will preface this with an acknowledgment: Using PLR first does not inherently destroy our ability to achieve the first strike.
Now, what does PLR give us that we would want to deploy it before the combat begins
So, if your argument is that after taking an action to loudly proclaim where we are and then we are able to strike first against an opponent, then there are a couple of hurdles in your path.
Another thing is that the Horror does not compromise our strategic stealth, it, in fact, adds additional options to it, if there is even a thing called strategic stealth when the opponent is fully aware that an individual is in the same arena as him. Having something that can be sensed, but is not attached to us gives us the option to direct the opponent in a direction that we want. To bait him towards something that is advantageous to us. Simply having nothing to sense gives very limited direction to the opponent on where to go and gives us very little means to control his behavior.
So no, I disagree with the assumption that PLR is best optimized to occur before the fight begins. It should be a tech we pull out on the 3rd or 4th turn, depending on the opponent.
I have never switched my argument on how we have time to reach our opponent and how we can do pre-combat buffing. So let's go through why I did a combat buff analysis in response to your combat buff analysis.
Your analysis had MotV, Dissonance, and Elegy within the confines of the turns that Ling Qi was taking. If your turn sequence has MotV, Dissonance, and Elegy then I am going to assume that conflict has already begun because there is no reason to lose first strike because we decided to not start off with our opponent in FVM. So I assumed that your turn analysis was in fact an in-combat turn analysis of what is likely to occur.
I responded with my own in-combat turn analysis of how we could achieve the same defensive position within 2 turns by using an out of turn action setting up the Horror.
Your previous turn analysis seemed to have nothing to do with pre-conflict buffing because 1/3 of it was offensive based attacks (MotV, dissonance, Elegy). If we are going on the offensive, then I am assuming that conflict has already started.
Assuming conflict had already started, I responded to your turn analysis and achieved the same defensive options in 2 turns rather than 3. I can not stress this enough, my turn analysis was in-combat as was your turn analysis. So let's not use in-combat analysis and try and say it correlates at all to pre-combat turn analysis... because it doesn't.
If your in-combat analysis was meant to demonstrate the need, or value, of buffing outside of combat to save us those actions then that was not communicated clearly to me at all.
If you want a turn analysis that involves pre-combat buffing, then it would look something like this.
Turn 1: Build Horror; HRA; TRD
Horror: DWV
Turn 2: TRU; RS; CG
Except that doesn't really work because that requires response actions, something that can't be done unless we have an attack to respond to. So then it plods on to 3 turns or 4 turns of just buffing ourselves up.
Most notably in this situation, building the Horror does not actually slow down our self-buffing, as it then takes it turns and places a buff where we would have spent an action doing it. A beautiful system.
Now, moving on to why we rarely, if ever, want to pre-buff with PLR because I consider that an absolute waste of pre-buffing and may actively be determinantal.
I will preface this with an acknowledgment: Using PLR first does not inherently destroy our ability to achieve the first strike.
Now, what does PLR give us that we would want to deploy it before the combat begins
- A field that requires a person to pass a 7 success perception test in order to accurately target us
- Should the opponent accurately target us they do so with a -3 to dice
- 4 qi to deploy
- an action
So, if your argument is that after taking an action to loudly proclaim where we are and then we are able to strike first against an opponent, then there are a couple of hurdles in your path.
- The arena needs to be larger than 100 m across
- Irrespective of how large the area is that the locations of the combatants are further than 100m apart
- That the opponent would move into our qi sensing range (of 100m) and not have a plan to cross the rest of the distance to attack
I completely disagree with your assumption. PLR and the Horror are completely different in terms of how the qi is used and the scale of what is going on. Using PLR to create sound, lights, and an 80m radius rave cannot be compared to creating a singular creature that may not even take up a cubic meter of space.
Another thing is that the Horror does not compromise our strategic stealth, it, in fact, adds additional options to it, if there is even a thing called strategic stealth when the opponent is fully aware that an individual is in the same arena as him. Having something that can be sensed, but is not attached to us gives us the option to direct the opponent in a direction that we want. To bait him towards something that is advantageous to us. Simply having nothing to sense gives very limited direction to the opponent on where to go and gives us very little means to control his behavior.
So no, I disagree with the assumption that PLR is best optimized to occur before the fight begins. It should be a tech we pull out on the 3rd or 4th turn, depending on the opponent.
The Horror is awful at that. We only have the one. It's a total misuse of resources. A handful of scouts would be much better used as a decoy, but it's not an option if we still want to use the Horror because we don't even have a single spare scout. I'm fine with not, obviously, but I'm sure others will insist.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
You...assumed that the combat had already started when my whole argument was that it was better to buff before the combat start than when it does, so that we can have both optimal offence and defence? Saying that if we buff beforehand we can fight without actually suffering through bad turns? I only did a comparison of 'having buff already up before combat' vs 'having to begin combat without buffs up'. That's all.
Why? did you not read my argument at all?
EDIT: Actually, I know you did, because my post was responding to yours saying that prebuffing didn't matter at all because it changed nothing. So that's apparently just yet another goal shifting.
I don't want an analysis of us prebuffing. It doesn't matter how we prebuff as we know we can do it (and we can use instant response without being attacked).
My point was.... simply that if you are going to use an horror, which necessitate prebuffing, then there is no reason not to prebuff.... and if we prebuff, the only way horror matters is if DWV from horror stacks on top of our own DWV. You then responded you didn't want to prebuff, which confused me. Is that not your argument? that you prefer to not prebuff? So why are you having the horror being prebuffed in your scenarios but not the rest of it?
No, actually. It just needs for us to not be within line of sight of the enemy. If we are behind walls, we aren't going to get attacked, and the combat won't start.
Now, I don't think us using PLR is likely, because it's more awkward than normal prebuffs. But it doesn't need very narrow circumstances at all. I can't think of many holodeck set ups where there aren't trees/walls/etc.
It compromises our strategic stealth the exact same way PLR compromises it: by being a signal that something is going on at a specific location. It is also a more expensive technique to use for a lesser effect.
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- Location
- United States of America
I'm beginning to hate having my posts chopped up like a cow at a butcher's shop and discussed piecemeal. So, in order to condense what my posts are about, I'm just going to talk about PLR as the pre-buffing conversation is a tangled mess.
I am disturbed by the belief that line of sight is necessary for combat to begin. It conveniently forgets that AoE's exist as well as our very own Falling Star Shot, which prevents cover and other obstacles from having bonuses against it.
Walls stopped combat when we were red, line of sight became redundant when Qi sensing became a thing in Yellow, and I am convinced that walls will provide no meaningful way to stop combat from occurring at Green.
As for the strategic stealth, I fail to see how PLR and a Horror are at all related to signifying a location is active. PLR allows the opponent to know where our direction is 80m before the opponent ever has a chance to sense us. The Horror does no such thing.
I find it hard to believe that there is an honest belief that a Horror created from 21 individual scouts which probably takes up less than a cubic meter of space has the same potential to be sensed as the creation of an 80m radius zone of our qi.
The use of PLR gives our opponent's an alert to where we are 80m before they have the chance to sense us, the Horror does no such thing.
Then don't read it. You can just skip their posts after all, and the rest of us can read their arguments and make a decision on which we believe.
Normally I would, but this one's been going on for quite a while and the vote that it might have influenced is already closed. Now it's just a waste of everybody's time.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Ah, I see, so you skip the actual argument that you began about prebuffing, conveniently bypassing that the main issue is that the horror works only if we prebuff, but if we prebuff the horror only does anything if DWV from the horror stacks with our own DWV- and for the price of 10Qi for one DWV stack.
I'll just go to your conveniently new argument, then!
Walls and line of sight have still stopped combat once we entered green. Those were the reasons Sun Liling couldn't attack us multiple turns when she was pursuing us. The vast, vast majority of techniques still need those. If you are saying that techniques like our Winter End's Cadanza or Dissonance do not need line of sight and can work even when having obstacles, you might be correct... except that in that very same scenario it also applies to assembling the horror, which would also trigger those potential AOEs.
After all, we are supposed to be using the horror against peer opponents (unless you are changing your argument once again). Peer opponents means that they will be trying to sense where we are as they know we are a stealthy motherfucker.
So, yes: PLR and Horror are equivalent neon signs saying where we are, except PLR actually hides the details of where we are. After all, it doesn't matter if PLR is louder as long as both are past the threshold they need to be to be detected.
The issue here is that the real vote is when we'll have to decide if we want to use the horror in the tournament. As I believe it might very well, depending on the set up of the holodeck, make us more vulnerable to use it for almost no gain whatsoever, this still need to be discussed.
I am wary of us going in a cost sunk fallacy where we'll decide we need to use the horror because we have built it, even though it is of probably no help to us and instead might make it harder for us to enter combat in an optimal position.
Since when do we vote on what to do in fights other than the most broad strokes (ie. fight/talk/run)?
Same, fam
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Well, we used to, but it has been phased out now that I think about it. Until Growing Pains we actually had a lot of details in how we approached fights, but... that was a long time ago, and since then it hasn't happened.
While it's possible tournament will have us have more choice as it's the climax, I'll table this argument until then.
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
@yrsillar I think you missed a few, or at least mine:
Page 1 lists dex at 20/45, same as the last threadmark skill gains.