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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Yeah, TBH, I don't get the hand wringing over SCS. It might be a leg art, but SCS's use for combat is incidental / fortuitous with the FVM combination whereas ZB was intended for such in the first place. In general, SCS's theme is for sneaking and disengages, which it is ridiculously good at.

Game wise, it also incentivizes the players to actually continue to pursue some of these other available arts instead of just throwing them all aside for FVM and SCS only. It makes Ling Qi a bit of a glass cannon build that would need to be supplemented with arts or just boatloads of qi, but I don't necessarily consider that to be a bad thing.
 
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lioli said:
SCS, on the other hand, is only a combat art at all as a secondary concern. Look at what the techniques do -- Trackless Escape let us disengage from combat, or lets us leave the scene without a trace (or lets us sneak into places without a trace); Crescent's Grace makes us faster and lets us ignore terrain penalties. Tying them together gets us a person that sneaks into a place, passing through all sorts of obstacles and traps along the way, and then sneaks out again, all without leaving a trace. In other words, its the movement art for thieves, as is fitting for the gift of the Grinning Moon, patron of thieves and those who work out of sight. That the 2nd level of Crescent's Grace matches the defensive and speed performance of the third and mastered level of a pure combat speed art is a testament to SCS's superiority.
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That is a good point. It also gives us stealth/sneak bonus (auto-successes at darkness) and it gives us Sneak Attack (2 extra dice if we attack first).

It really is a theif's skill and not a combat skill. And I can't believe this didn't occur to me until you mentioned it.
 
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We also have been getting hints that it will be a pretty good damage mitigation art with the ability to morph into shadow allowing damage to pass through us. I think it was mentioned in the last fight.
 
You know, one has to think about the fact that the sect leader gave us an utterly amazing thief technique.

... so, we better start stealing things at night to impress him.
 
It wasn't the sect leader though. Those techniques were a possibility in the formation we entered, but the one who gave it to us was Xin, the moon spirit. That was done mainly because of Xin's sisters though, at least that was what my interpretation was.
 
Still, he did mention him taking us as a student would depend on how well we use the arts. I'm entirely for abusing the technique to lighten those pesky nobles' purses.
 
yrsillar said:
Jiao's not the sect leader tho
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Thanks for the clarification.

A possible art to look into would be a yin aspected perception art for the head meridian. It would be interesting to look into an art that can see the flows of qi or enhances our sight even more. We already have perfect night vision, any other enhancements would make us a nighttime perception monster.
 
Katreus said:
For mercy in particular, it reminds me of the incident of stealing the blanket during winter. Except this time we don't even need the figurative blanket, we'd just like it for even more resources at the market. I would be far more inclined to loot them of their weapons (i.e. the full loot) if it had been clear we'd be leaving them with whatever they need to heal each other / replenish qi / health pills or whatever, but it seems like the distinction is not fine enough for the vote.

I also hate that we went to the market instead of checking up on Meizhen, who we know is in a serious fight against someone who is her equal if not her superior. For all the faux-moralizing for loot all about not standing by our friend Gu Xiulan, which was, itself, a ridiculous argument, we are apparently perfectly fine with not standing by Meizhen.

I hate everything about this vote.

@mrttao Please stop double posting.
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yrsillar said:
"Did you already forget Wei? He really thought you were gonna pull him up after you, you know? How about old man Shen? Even after he gave you bread, you still stole his blankets when winter came."
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Big difference between taking the gear from our attackers and stealing the blanket, during winter, from an old man that fed us. Yes we needed the blanket more than the loot but the old man was good to Ling Qi while the twins were in on a plan to attack her. Also really doubt the sect depends on such low level healers or the majority of people would be screwed.
I do feel bad about not checking on Meizhen though. I'd hoped to get gear and then go to her but relistically we'd probably be too late (though it's questionable how much help we'd actually be)
 
Humbaba said:
Any hypothetical personage worried about the repetition of such an incident may be comforted by the fact that after Ogodei's death in battle, the ministry of integrity was formed to ensure that no such incompetence could arise to threaten the Empire again. They may also find themselves comforted by the fact that Yuan He, who slew Ogodei in combat stands vigilantly shielding the Empires' border, whilst training worthy successors in his capacity as the Sect Leader of the Argent peak.
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Reminder, this is basically all we know about the Sect Leader. War hero and apparently predates the creation of the ministry of integrity.

Oh, and he was asking for more money and was turned down.
 
yrsillar said:
Eh, I suppose it might be best just to nerf shielding gale then, take away the duration so that it's just a single turn burst defense for your party, maybe make the push back clash separate from the actual defense roll. Makes it fit the narrative slot I was going for 'push back foes and throw away high amounts of missile fire.
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Does this mean GC still doesn't apply it's dot for the clash it is activated on (not the 3 turns)?
Katreus said:
I also hate that we went to the market instead of checking up on Meizhen, who we know is in a serious fight against someone who is her equal if not her superior. For all the faux-moralizing for loot all about not standing by our friend Gu Xiulan, which was, itself, a ridiculous argument, we are apparently perfectly fine with not standing by Meizhen.
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A thousand times this. It's really grating that we are going shopping when we could be making sure Li Suyin and Lu Sing aren't dead (I have confidence in Bai Meizhen).

As for the boytwin, I have confidence @yrsillar would have Qi Ling noticing if he was in danger and try to help him.

lioli said:
I think the current parity betwen Gale Shield and Crescent's Grace lies in the thematics of the two arts. Looking at Zephyr's Breath, it's a pure combat speed art -- you start with Against the Wind to slow the opponent down, Gale Shield if they're still fast enough to close in, then ping them to death with Guiding Zephyr.

SCS, on the other hand, is only a combat art at all as a secondary concern. Look at what the techniques do -- Trackless Escape let us disengage from combat, or lets us leave the scene without a trace (or lets us sneak into places without a trace); Crescent's Grace makes us faster and lets us ignore terrain penalties. Tying them together gets us a person that sneaks into a place, passing through all sorts of obstacles and traps along the way, and then sneaks out again, all without leaving a trace. In other words, its the movement art for thieves, as is fitting for the gift of the Grinning Moon, patron of thieves and those who work out of sight. That the 2nd level of Crescent's Grace matches the defensive and speed performance of the third and mastered level of a pure combat speed art is a testament to SCS's superiority.
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Katreus said:
Yeah, TBH, I don't get the hand wringing over SCS. It might be a leg art, but SCS's use for combat is incidental / fortuitous with the FVM combination whereas ZB was intended for such in the first place. In general, SCS's theme is for sneaking and disengages, which it is ridiculously good at.

Game wise, it also incentivizes the players to actually continue to pursue some of these other available arts instead of just throwing them all aside for FVM and SCS only. It makes Ling Qi a bit of a glass cannon build that would need to be supplemented with arts or just boatloads of qi, but I don't necessarily consider that to be a bad thing.
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You are making very good points that I will answer, but first I want to point out that @AbeoLogos was making a post about systemic issues between dodging and reactive defence, as well as between attacking and defending. Crescent Gale and Gale Shield were used as examples of those issues, and not as the arts having the issues.

Basically, every attack arts get it's dot dice added to it, while only reactive defensive ones do. This provide a perverse incentive where not only attack is much easier to stack than defence, but where dodging-centric defence not only means that if you get caught you are in a world of pain, but that you are worse at dodging than someone who stands still with armour arts.

Take, for example, an hypothetical 5 dot defence skill that gives +5 dodge for 10 turns, and an hypothetical 5 dot defence skill that gives +2 damage reduction for 10 turns. The latter one, as it's a reactive skill, will also add +5 to defence during those 10 turns, making the supposedly dodge technique strictly worse.

Now, as for the actual great points you made: I completely agree that SCS is supposed to be a thieving and disengaging ability. I am very much hoping it will be good for thieving and disengaging for the level it's at (E.G, currently we have 'completed it' for the Red/gold level).

In fact, I strongly believe Crescent Grace will continue to improve as it levels, and I am somewhat hopeful that it will become good compared to powerful techniques for the things Crescent Grace focus on in. It's not the current case, though.

The current Crescent Grace, that is, not the one it will become, beside not being available in daylight, doesn't give stealth. It gives mediocre movement speed compared to significantly weaker techniques that are movement based. It gives mediocre defence compared to techniques that are not defence-heavy. It doesn't give significant movement utility so far if it's supposed to be about stealing (no wall running yet). It's extremely expensive Qi wise. It's supposedly 3 dots but is more in line with mediocre 2 dots techniques: It's not good at disengaging nor at movement nor at defence while it has large drawbacks (and doesn't have stealth yet).

Now, do I believe it will stay that way? no. What I am worried about, however, is that it will always stay a "Is not good compared to techniques of that same stage and has more disadvantage".
Thor's Twin said:
Thanks for the clarification.

A possible art to look into would be a yin aspected perception art for the head meridian. It would be interesting to look into an art that can see the flows of qi or enhances our sight even more. We already have perfect night vision, any other enhancements would make us a nighttime perception monster.
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That was why I wanted Head Meridian, but I am now expecting FVM to need those :(
TheLastOne said:
I think it was one of Meizhen's lessons. I also remember that being mentioned as being blindingly fast.
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Bai Meizhan was talking about Cai's mom who got to white in 50 years. The bit about 600 years for the late emperor was given out of story.
 
Arkeus said:
Basically, every attack arts get it's dot dice added to it, while only reactive defensive ones do. This provide a perverse incentive where not only attack is much easier to stack than defence, but where dodging-centric defence not only means that if you get caught you are in a world of pain, but that you are worse at dodging than someone who stands still with armour arts.
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Ah see, this is the first time I have seen anyone put it this way. Everyone were making it out like Zephyr breath is overpowered, which is why QM agreed to nerf it.

But what you are saying is that Zephyr breath is fine, the problem is that dodging/defending as a mechanic is broken. Such that tank style defender arts are somehow better at dodging than dodging arts.

This makes a lot more sense now, thank you for clarifying. @yrsillar what are your thoughts about it?
Arkeus said:
The current Crescent Grace, that is, not the one it will become, beside not being available in daylight, doesn't give stealth.
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Not every ability given by an art has to apply to everything. Crescent Grace doesn't give stealth, but it is part of SCS art, which does give stealth.
 
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mrttao said:
Not every ability given by an art has to apply to everything. Crescent Grace doesn't give stealth, but it is part of SCS art, which does give stealth.
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You can't say "It's a art that is focused on stealth" and then point out to the second technique, which is a non-stealth technique (the first is also non-stealth), and say this is why this movement technique is bad at movement and bad at defence that it focus on so far.

As for "no one said it" for the systemic issue, that was what Abeo's big post was about a couple pages ago.
 
Arkeus said:
That was why I wanted Head Meridian, but I am now expecting FVM to need those
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What is giving you that impression? FVM doesn't seem like it would do anything with our perception.

Speaking of other things, when should we start doing requests from the request board? I would argue almost right away merely because the quicker we start getting sect points the quicker we would be allowed into the level 2 archives. It will give us some more experience that we desperately need, prove our worth to the sect elders, and allows us to make connections with people and get a network of people we know, and networking seems like a big thing in Xianxia. The more people you know, the better your opportunities are.
 
Arkeus said:
You can't say "It's a art that is focused on stealth" and then point out to the second technique, which is a non-stealth technique, and say this is why this movement technique is bad at movement and bad at defence that it focus on so far.
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Actually what was said is that it is an art that focuses on the skills of a sneak/thief. Not just stealth alone.
Yes the art gives some stealth (1 auto success at night), it also gives mobility, it gives backstab. and more. That when all of them tied together, are ideal skills of a Thief class (makes since considering who gave it)

The specific technique you are singling out as not fitting gives
yrsillar said:
Crescent's Grace: ooo
Cost 5 qi
Instant
Can only be activated in low light or darkness. The user adds three dice to their defensive pool and increases their speed by 5. While active, the user ignores terrain penalties to speed and slopes of 45 degrees or less. User may cross water or gaps freely as long as their movement ends on solid ground.Lasts three turns
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+speed
+defense
+ignore terrain/incline penalty to movement
+teleport across gaps and water.

Those are all very beneficial for a theif style character. Speed is always awesome when running away or trying to slip between guard patrols.

Defense is not really a thief thing, but it fits the rest of the technique since it happens through teleporting through the shadows to avoid attacks.

Ignoring terrain penalties is very useful when sneaking through forest or mountain terrain. Or even when just climbing stairs inside a building without slowing down.

and teleporting across gaps and water lets you cross the crocodile filled moat, and teleport from the tree to the room through the open window.

So while this particular technique is not granting stealth dice. It is very useful for a stealth based theif-assassin type character by granting them amazing mobility.
 
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Arkeus said:
Does this mean GC still doesn't apply it's dot for the clash it is activated on (not the 3 turns)?

A thousand times this. It's really grating that we are going shopping when we could be making sure Li Suyin and Lu Sing aren't dead (I have confidence in Bai Meizhen).

As for the boytwin, I have confidence @yrsillar would have Qi Ling noticing if he was in danger and try to help him.



You are making very good points that I will answer, but first I want to point out that @AbeoLogos was making a post about systemic issues between dodging and reactive defence, as well as between attacking and defending. Crescent Gale and Gale Shield were used as examples of those issues, and not as the arts having the issues.

Basically, every attack arts get it's dot dice added to it, while only reactive defensive ones do. This provide a perverse incentive where not only attack is much easier to stack than defence, but where dodging-centric defence not only means that if you get caught you are in a world of pain, but that you are worse at dodging than someone who stands still with armour arts.

Take, for example, an hypothetical 5 dot defence skill that gives +5 dodge for 10 turns, and an hypothetical 5 dot defence skill that gives +2 damage reduction for 10 turns. The latter one, as it's a reactive skill, will also add +5 to defence during those 10 turns, making the supposedly dodge technique strictly worse.

Now, as for the actual great points you made: I completely agree that SCS is supposed to be a thieving and disengaging ability. I am very much hoping it will be good for thieving and disengaging for the level it's at (E.G, currently we have 'completed it' for the Red/gold level).

In fact, I strongly believe Crescent Grace will continue to improve as it levels, and I am somewhat hopeful that it will become good compared to powerful techniques for the things Crescent Grace focus on in. It's not the current case, though.

The current Crescent Grace, that is, not the one it will become, beside not being available in daylight, doesn't give stealth. It gives mediocre movement speed compared to significantly weaker techniques that are movement based. It gives mediocre defence compared to techniques that are not defence-heavy. It doesn't give significant movement utility so far if it's supposed to be about stealing (no wall running yet). It's extremely expensive Qi wise. It's supposedly 3 dots but is more in line with mediocre 2 dots techniques: It's not good at disengaging nor at movement nor at defence while it has large drawbacks (and doesn't have stealth yet).

Now, do I believe it will stay that way? no. What I am worried about, however, is that it will always stay a "Is not good compared to techniques of that same stage and has more disadvantage".

That was why I wanted Head Meridian, but I am now expecting FVM to need those :(

Bai Meizhan was talking about Cai's mom who got to white in 50 years. The bit about 600 years for the late emperor was given out of story.
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One thing I think you're missing a little is that SCS makes us better at a number of things. That makes it so that it does every single thing worse, but we get them all with one art.

Like, Crescent's Grace makes us faster, lets us super parkour, helps our intrusion ability (we can cross gaps as long as we end on solid ground - we can effectively make horizontal leaps the entire length of our movement), let us run across water, AND it boosts defense.

Miss Melee's movement art made her good at closing gaps to get into melee fights. She had a movement art level, and that's EVERYTHING it did.


No Crescent's Grace is several steps worse then a dedicated defense art, but it's doing the lifting of three different arts. You could have the Parkour and Speed art, the ninja move Art, and the Dodge Good art, and those would all be individual arts that all outdo Crescent's Grace, but we would need three Meridians for three different arts and to have raised all of them separately.
 
Thor's Twin said:
What is giving you that impression? FVM doesn't seem like it would do anything with our perception.
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Passive Effects
-Adds three bonus dice to all perception rolls
-User receives no penalties for acting in low light or darkness

Three Dice to all perception rolls seems like quite a bit to me for a non-perception art.
TheLastOne said:
One thing I think you're missing a little is that SCS makes us better at a number of things. That makes it so that it does every single thing worse, but we get them all with one art.

Like, Crescent's Grace makes us faster, lets us super parkour, helps our intrusion ability (we can cross gaps as long as we end on solid ground - we can effectively make horizontal leaps the entire length of our movement), let us run across water, AND it boosts defense.

Miss Melee's movement art made her good at closing gaps to get into melee fights. She had a movement art level, and that's EVERYTHING it did.
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I agree that the technique is fairly broad... but you are underestimating Miss Melee's art. She had freaking high dodge that didn't come from nowhere. She was getting high dodge from passives of her art, at least, it's just that she had a dedicated technique to movement.

Now, SCS, which is both much higher grade and which is dependent on light levels, has a technique that, at most at red soul, can give half of Miss Melee's movement ability, and maybe 1 more dice of dodge than Miss Melee get from passive.

Does it have a bit more utility about 45 angle? Sure. Is it worth halving movement bonus and maybe worse defence, as well as not working in daylight? no.

EDIT: Again, though: I am fully expecting Crescent Grace to continue improve aa we level SCS. I am just wary at it always staying "do multiple things in a mediocre way but have huge penalties".
 
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Arkeus said:
Now, SCS, which is both much higher grade
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We don't know for sure that SCS is of a higher grade than Miss Melee's art. It's a distinct possibility, but Miss Melee does come from a noble family, a noble family that might be high ranking due to her engagement with Huang Dao, who Gu Xiulian noted was a good catch. Miss Melee probably did have the movement art at level three, due to her being a noble and an earlier cultivator than us. As seen with ZB, there can be a stark difference between the second level of the skill and the third level of the skill. With the inclusion of the spine Meridian needed for SCS in order to progress to the next level, there will probably be another technique that makes us significantly harder to hit and mitigates damage somewhat.

All in all, I'm really liking SCS and I think that as it improves it will outstrip other movement arts in its utility and capabilities.
 
Arkeus said:
EDIT: Again, though: I am fully expecting Crescent Grace to continue improve aa we level SCS. I am just wary at it always staying "do multiple things in a mediocre way but have huge penalties".
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what penalties?
SCS only has benefits so far.
do you mean limitations? it only has the 1 limitation, it has to be in low light. And we specifically have a companion skill for providing us that so we can always have it when we want it.
 
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