Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

But her interlude was... basically underlining how manipulative she was? She brought up a bunch of people and pretty much every single person she brought up was prefaced with 'and this is how I control them.'

I agree that Renxiang probably defaults to manipulation when she can, but that's because it's the only tool she's got in her social toolbox.

I don't agree however, that her goal is stability and safety rather than justice. I think she believes in genuine, fair justice, but she acknowledges how difficult that is to implement in the real world. So compromises need to be made, especially when starting out, but I'm pretty sure her ultimate goal is a true, fair justice rather than just absolute control like what her mother imposes.
 
There is a spark of fascination in CRXs loyalty and gratefulness for her patronage that may become personal loyalty in the future, but since i personally believe CRXs justice is naive and cannot survive contact with the real world i would vastly prefer if we snuff those out as soon as possible so we can prepare to leave the Cai train before it barrels down a cliff somewhere.
Lololol wanting to make an effort to remove corruption and abuse from the system is "naive and cannot survive contact with the real world"? Glad to know you think everyone involved in governance, bureaucracy and law enforcement who think the same are naive idealists :p
 
I would caution that 'fairness' and 'justice' are very subjective and culturally determined concepts. 'The Lion gets the Lion's share' was often seen as VERY fair, even by those who received less. And justice is still a very controversial and nebulous concept in modern society- often associated with religion throughout history.
 
Last edited:
So what if Ling Qi doesn't completely buy in to whatever Cai is selling? She at least doesn't actively dislike it.

So what if the readers don't like the character that much? (At least speaking for myself, I can say that I like Xin/Jiao and Gu Tai more) She's ok.

So what if Ling Qi doesn't think of her as a friend. She's not an enemy.

We accepted a job. That pays. Quite well.
 
She used her connection to get the justice to do something. Normally that would be IRL influence peddling, I believe.

So it might be somewhat premature to say that she want a modern justice system.

My personnal belief is that like her mother she is about control first. Justice exist but it is not the first thing she think about.

As evidenced by her interlude which was about how she could control people and not about justice (in the modern sense).

Now, magical china concept of justice might be obey your boss. In which case both concept would be pretty close.
 
Just imagine Cai Negaverse thread reactions ...
"Why WHY did she accept? What the hell did we even do to make her like us that much?"
".....Maybe she has a thing for us? Hope Meizhen doesn't find out, that would be SO awkward"
"Ling Qi is just a naive commoner who decided on a whim and Meizhen just likes her best friend a lot, get your damn yuri goggles off"
"I TOLD YOU GUYS SHE WAS SECRETLY A PLANT FROM MOM TO KEEP US ON GUARD AGAINST BETRAYALS BY OUR SUBORDINATES!"
 
I TOLD YOU GUYS SHE WAS SECRETLY A PLANT FROM MOM
I suspect that Cai's clothing reports back to her mother and gives her status updates.

I have a slight suspicion based on Yrsillar's comments about Cai Shenua breaking traditions and rules that Shenua is not only aiming to ascend as a greater spirit but also find a way to maintain an active connection to the lower realms.
 
Last edited:
"Why WHY did she accept? What the hell did we even do to make her like us that much?"
".....Maybe she has a thing for us?
"It's the white, isn't it? Both us and Meizhen wear white alot. Well, at least we could get a nice white/dark fashion thing going on with her. Her hair is great as well."
"What did we say about choosing our subordinates based on colour coordination?"

"I TOLD YOU GUYS SHE WAS SECRETLY A PLANT FROM MOM TO KEEP US ON GUARD AGAINST BETRAYALS BY OUR SUBORDINATES!"
"I'm sorry, Renxiang. I've been working for your mother this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Duchess Cai. I've been working for the Empress this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Empress Xiang. I've been working for the Spirit of Civilisation this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Spirit of Civilisation. I've been working for the Concept of Ordered Reality this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Concept of Ordered Reality. I've been working for the Possibility of Existence this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Possibility of Existence. I've been working for the Absolute Nothingness this whole time to test you. You've failed."
 
I mean everyone knows I find cai to be a dry piece of toast but can we at least give her a chance and yrs a chance to write out the story a bit before we start throwing fuel on the fire about what possibly bad things could go wrong....

Like let's just wait a bit, maybe talk about other things. Like our second spirit , do you think we have a chance to get dragon bro before tournament? Or are readers gonna go with ravemoon girl because if they don't she is gonna dissappear
 
I mean everyone knows I find cai to be a dry piece of toast but can we at least give her a chance and yrs a chance to write out the story a bit before we start throwing fuel on the fire about what possibly bad things could go wrong....

Like let's just wait a bit, maybe talk about other things. Like our second spirit , do you think we have a chance to get dragon bro before tournament? Or are readers gonna go with ravemoon girl because if they don't she is gonna dissappear
Sixiang already has a friendly relationship with us thanks to the party and is explicitly a muse who can probably help with our musical arts so definitely him/her, tsundragon will take more work since we just met him and he's still prideful.
 
I mean everyone knows I find cai to be a dry piece of toast but can we at least give her a chance and yrs a chance to write out the story a bit before we start throwing fuel on the fire about what possibly bad things could go wrong....

Like let's just wait a bit, maybe talk about other things. Like our second spirit , do you think we have a chance to get dragon bro before tournament? Or are readers gonna go with ravemoon girl because if they don't she is gonna dissappear

I think dragon mom might take exception.

Wasn't there a thing about about male dragons running off with human women?.

As for the moon spirit. Might be interesting, Idk if it will gain traction though. For some bizarre reason I halfway expect she/he has been pretending to be a vampire for the lulz, since we told him/her that they couldn't enter a home unless invited.

Yeah, I know that kind of vampire isn't really Chinese.
 
"I TOLD YOU GUYS SHE WAS SECRETLY A PLANT FROM MOM TO KEEP US ON GUARD AGAINST BETRAYALS BY OUR SUBORDINATES!"

Nah, clearly she's a spy from the Bai Clan set in place to keep an eye on Cai.

"But we investigated her background and she's a runaway daughter of a prostitute."

The Bai faked it, obviously. They've got tens of thousands of years on Cai Clan. No way our info network is anywhere near their's.

"But why would they bother? It's not like we even knew who Ling Qi was going into this and no one would have predicted us offering to vassalize her."

Cai's kinda famous for promoting talented commoners. Not that hard to guess she'd eye Ling Qi.

"It's not like she's the only talented commoner in the sect."

That's why the Bai trained her well so she'd stand out more.

"She was a mortal when she entered the Sect."

You don't have to be a cultivator to be trained.
 
"It's the white, isn't it? Both us and Meizhen wear white alot. Well, at least we could get a nice white/dark fashion thing going on with her. Her hair is great as well."
"What did we say about choosing our subordinates based on colour coordination?"


"I'm sorry, Renxiang. I've been working for your mother this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Duchess Cai. I've been working for the Empress this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Empress Xiang. I've been working for the Spirit of Civilisation this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Spirit of Civilisation. I've been working for the Concept of Ordered Reality this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Concept of Ordered Reality. I've been working for the Possibility of Existence this whole time to test you. You've failed."
"I'm sorry, Possibility of Existence. I've been working for the Absolute Nothingness this whole time to test you. You've failed."

"I'm sorry Absolute Nothingness, I've been something this whole time to test you. You've failed."

ITS JUST A NEVER-ENDING CYCLE OF TESTS!
 
Lololol wanting to make an effort to remove corruption and abuse from the system is "naive and cannot survive contact with the real world"? Glad to know you think everyone involved in governance, bureaucracy and law enforcement who think the same are naive idealists :p

Even modern democracies can be rather corrupt. Cai Renxiangs Ideals cannot be achieved in full. Especially not in a feudal system backed by cultivation giving the high nobility nigh supreme military power.

Right now she might still be willing to compromise her justice for cases like Rong, but Cai Renxiang is a cultivator. She'll grow ever more extreme as she leaves her humanity behind and becomes a spirit of justice incarnate.

We've seen that CRX is a consummate micromanager and micromanaging is just a terrible idea when you are a godlike conceptual energy being that fundamentally can't understand human nature.

There is a reason most Whites don't take part in politics.
 
As evidenced by her interlude which was about how she could control people and not about justice (in the modern sense).

I suspect that's because she's aware most people aren't justice-driven like she is, and hence, more base means are needed to get them to buy into her justice dream. I mean, Shenhua did the same thing, making promises and compromises on the way up so she could get the end result of "I RULE ALL WITHIN MY DUCHY". You don't think she was an uncompromising control freak from the beginning, do you? She'd never have gotten where she was today if she'd started like that.
 
Cai had her opportunity to earn Ling Qis loyalty, but she like... totally didn't, at least not before this vote.
Why do people keep saying this? She helped us every time we approached her with a problem. Just because she wasn't proactive doesn't mean it was the wrong approach. Do people seriously want me to believe if we had constant Cai interrupts of offering help they'd like Cai more? Considering all the comments I see about the difficulty of balancing social links, it doesn't seem like it'd be appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Why do people keep saying this? She helped us every time we approached her with a problem. Just because she wasn't proactive doesn't mean it was the wrong approach. Do people seriously want me to believe if we had constant Cai interrupts of offering help they'd like Cai more? Considering all the comments I see about the difficulty of balancing social links, it doesn't seem like it'd be appreciated.

It has nothing to do with being proactive. I am of the opinion that we and Cai both tried everything possible to forge a bond - and all we ended up with was "wary trust". The two of them just aren't very compatible personalities.
 
Even modern democracies can be rather corrupt. Cai Renxiangs Ideals cannot be achieved in full. Especially not in a feudal system backed by cultivation giving the high nobility nigh supreme military power.
All systems are corrupt. That doesn't mean you give up on the system, it just means you need to find and slap down the people who abuse it.

And yes, CRX's personality will become somewhat inflexible by the time she hits white. That will also happen to Ling Qi, and has and will happen to every other white. Them's the facts of cultivating.
You do have a point that Shenhua is (and Renxiang likely will be) more politically active than most whites and there is a debate to be had over whether that is a bad thing, but that's going to happen regardless of our actions. And is well beyond what would be in character for Ling Qi to worry about currently.
 
Basically, looking back on this, I think our questing behavior and general inability to decide on a proper direction for Ling Qi made the Manipulation High, Empathy Low duchal heiress become totally incapable of deciding on a strategy for approaching Ling Qi and attempt instead to throw things at the wall to see what sticks. Ling Qi doesn't even know what she wants, so CRX has to sort of flail around hoping that Ling Qi will just figure it out on her own and then ask.
Ok, I'm going to quibble with this to some degree. Firstly, I don't think that Cai doesn't understand people. If anything, managing people the way she does requires a high ability to understand their feelings and motivations.

Heck, even Ling Qi's problem isn't lack of empathy - it's that she doesn't pay any attention to people outside her monkeysphere, which is a rather different thing.

Also, elaborating on the "manipulation" issue... people (not that you have) can have a tendency to see this in a negative light. I would argue, however, that Cai hasn't really behaved in any way that, for instance, Meizhen or Han Jian wouldn't in her place. Considering the broader implications of her actions and how her interactions with people serve her goals is part and parcel of the position of responsibility she's in.

Quite a good discussion of this issue was actually in a recent update to Of Noble Purpose:
Hiroyasu is staring at you now, utterly silent, and for a brief moment you fear he might be about to reject you entirely. It would not be unreasonable for him to do so, you know; there are a great many people who dislike the idea of being manipulated by others, even to benign ends, and still more that would rather assume you have some ulterior motive than ever accept your words at face value. The only way to deal with that kind of person is to act without guile, to speak without thought and meet their sincere words with simple honesty of your own, but you… you can't do that.

You've tried, more than once, but this is one of those circumstances where your noble upbringing works against you. You've been trained from birth to fulfill the role your family demands from you, and part of that role demands an awareness of consequence and implication beyond anything your more lowborn peers will ever have to deal with. To do something without thinking of what it might mean, how it might change the way that another perceives you, to engage in social behaviour without even the slightest shred of manipulation… such things are akin to fighting with your eyes closed, and you simply cannot bring yourself to do so, not when so much rests upon your shoulders.

My impression is that Cai is very similar here.
 
It has nothing to do with being proactive. I am of the opinion that we and Cai both tried everything possible to forge a bond - and all we ended up with was "wary trust". The two of them just aren't very compatible personalities.
But Ling Qi isn't a very trusting person to begin with. The fact Cai recognized she had to take it slow and wait to be approached is a good sign. And getting Qi's wary trust isnt necessarily a sign of their incompatibility, but of how leery Qi is of trusting people. If anything it's an accomplishment since it actually worked, as split as the vote ended up being.
Edit: I won't say it'll be buddy buddy fun times now and forever, but it's a start.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top