Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[Arkeus]

Refusing to acknowledge someone who is factually stronger than you and that you have in fact wronged is the actual prideful act here. Even Ling Qi herself thinks that she would rather talk then fight. Like even if you ignore the fact that kowtowing to stronger cultivators is part of the setting conceit, the dragon is the one who holds all the carxs here. He is the one with prior claim on the site and he is the one who has connections in the sect. The action itself is called placating the dragon because he has an actual claim to the site and Ling Qi seeks his permission. Trying to use violence is just trying to 'cheat' the encounter because Ling Qi thinks that she is stronger and might makes right.

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It's definitely a pride thing yeah. It does gnaws at people to have the protagonist acting subservient when there seems to be a 'choice'.

OTOH, this is basically the equivalent of us choosing to fight Chu Song in growing Pains, or Sun Liling in Crimson Princess Interrupt... but probably safer. I doubt we'd lose our robe or get humiliated in the sect for this, just maybe lose a major action slot because of being in the hospital for a couple days.

Having Ling Qi fight against a appraisal/foundation (probably not higher) Dragon is going to be interesting, and there is even pseudo-IC reason to vote that way (Ling Qi sucking at being subservient).

 

[FixerUpper]

I fear the end result of this particulae decision tree will be 'accidentally seduce the dragon.'

The facts are these:

First we catch his attention by stealing some fruit from right under his nose. Then we meet his mother. Then we come bearing gifts and acting like we are equals, asking to spend more time with him. If we beat him up, I think that respect, anger and interest are going to get all tangled up in his mind until he decides that if he is thinking about us so much it is because we are worth thinking about.

Also, he's a dragon teenager and I dunno how many dragons are around for him to date.

Can't tell if this is worst case scenario or best case scenario.

 

[Arkeus]

I fear the end result of this particulae decision tree will be 'accidentally seduce the dragon.'

The facts are these:

First we catch his attention by stealing some fruit from right under his nose. Then we meet his mother. Then we come bearing gifts and acting like we are equals, asking to spend more time with him. If we beat him up, I think that respect, anger and interest are going to get all tangled up in his mind until he decides that if he is thinking about us so much it is because we are worth thinking about.

Also, he's a dragon teenager and I dunno how many dragons are around for him to date.

Can't tell if this is worst case scenario or best case scenario.

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What really annoys me there is if Zhengui was older this would be the perfect rival genesis moment.

 

[Serous]

Honestly, I'm just hoping that fighting a peer or stronger with a handicap would help Ling Qi do an arts breakthrough.

 

[Erebeal]

First we catch his attention by stealing some fruit from right under his nose. Then we meet his mother. Then we come bearing gifts and acting like we are equals, asking to spend more time with him. If we beat him up, I think that respect, anger and interest are going to get all tangled up in his mind until he decides that if he is thinking about us so much it is because we are worth thinking about.

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Well, it won't help when we're all like "I'm going to play some music and you're going to be my audience. It's not because I like you or anything - I just feel like it . Idiot."

 

[Alectai]

Yeah, the warning we got can be boiled down to "Don't let your Ling Qi-ness show or else he'll get confused and turn it into a fight" And we've basically never seen a scenario where Ling Qi can keep her... Herness in check if she's actually communicating with another lifeform--she can make a good effort, but ultimately, she slips up.

Going in with a challenge from the start means that we have greater initiative and can more adequately set the pace than if he just gets confused in a social encounter and lashes out.

 

[veekie]

And we've basically never seen a scenario where Ling Qi can keep her... Herness in check if she's actually communicating with another lifeform--she can make a good effort, but ultimately, she slips up.

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Observe her mouthing off to the Cyan yandere spirit of frozen death a few times while TRYING to be careful

 

[SITB]

Ok, let's note a couple of things: first, it's unclear that he is stronger than us - that's kind of the point here. Second, we haven't wronged him. He happens to be squatting in some grounds that belong to the sect, and we were sent on a legitimate mission to harvest some peaches. If he doesn't like it, he can complain to his mother (oh, wait...).

Moreover, assuming that going in supplication is "safe" is flawed. It was explicitly called out as risky since it is questionable as to whether or not Ling Qi can maintain an appropriately submissive demeanor - i.e. pass all her composure rolls.

Finally, our FVM dice aren't actually too bad anymore. If we equip FSS, we're rolling 29/30 + 1 stage on FVM. With Aria cast we're at an effective 35/36. Remember that Sun Liling only rolled 30 dice in week 32 with a tech. He could maybe be much stronger than her, but then that Appraisal Green spirit beast we fought in the cave (that had been eating lots of other spirits) only had a mere 27 dice (of course, this can vary widely between spirits). While we could get stomped, assuming that we will does not seem well justified.

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1) He is described being at the early stages of green IIRC, so he has at least 1 or 2 auto sux on Ling Qi and probably more esoteric/powerful techniques given the greater weight the green stages seem to have. He 'squats' there to train, like any other sect disciple (admittedly one that is a dragon and got there on his maternal connections). And lastly Ling Qi just sneaked in and stole the fruit instead of trying to talk to him, so he has a reason to think that Ling Qi should apologize to him.

2) Sure the supplication path isn't a sure thing (otherwise there would be no reason not to take it), but it's the one with the greater chances of success and doesn't involve Ling Qi immediately resorting to using force the second that she isn't forced to be diplomatic at gunpoint.

3) Arekus combat specs shows 27 dice for FVM, if Ling Qi equips FSS it reaches 29 (plus 1 level, but as I mentioned beforehand I am pretty sure that the dragon is a level beyond Ling Qi so it only cancels 1 auto-sux). I am also pretty sure that in order to land the debuffs of FVM and FSS Ling Qi needs to actually hit with her techniques.

It's definitely a pride thing yeah. It does gnaws at people to have the protagonist acting subservient when there seems to be a 'choice'.

OTOH, this is basically the equivalent of us choosing to fight Chu Song in growing Pains, or Sun Liling in Crimson Princess Interrupt... but probably safer. I doubt we'd lose our robe or get humiliated in the sect for this, just maybe lose a major action slot because of being in the hospital for a couple days.

Having Ling Qi fight against a appraisal/foundation (probably not higher) Dragon is going to be interesting, and there is even pseudo-IC reason to vote that way (Ling Qi sucking at being subservient).

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I am going to point out that opting out of fighting both Sun Liling and Chu Song were the correct decisions. Sun Liling would have pasted Ling Qi in a fight and Chu Song was on a level beyond Ling Qi during that particular fight.

 

[Erebeal]

3) Arekus combat specs shows 27 dice for FVM, if Ling Qi equips FSS it reaches 29 (plus 1 level, but as I mentioned beforehand I am pretty sure that the dragon is a level beyond Ling Qi so it only cancels 1 auto-sux). I am also pretty sure that in order to land the debuffs of FVM and FSS Ling Qi needs to actually hit with her techniques.

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Ah, not entirely true actually. Mist of the Vale - and importantly Spring's End Aria - are environmental effects. They don't require a clash to take effect. Which is rather handy in this case.

And whether or not fighting has a significantly worse chance of success is questionable as others have noted. I'd prefer to negotiate, honestly, and would be tempted to vote for supplication... But I can sympathise with those who feel that fighting the dragon is simply more fun as an option.

 

[Arkeus]

I am going to point out that opting out of fighting both Sun Liling and Chu Song were the correct decisions. Sun Liling would have pasted Ling Qi in a fight and Chu Song was on a level beyond Ling Qi during that particular fight.

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Yes, fighting him probably mean we'll be pasted and be unable to get the site unless it establish our relationship as a minion. OTOH, reading about Ling Qi hating herself for acting like a boot licker is not really fun, either, so going supplication route while probably better is not exactly good either.

Basically, if we were planning to level up our subterfuge or something right now because we were planning to go into social spyroute supplication could be great to get us a taste, but otherwise I think that both routes are bad in specific ways (superiority means probably being pasted, supplicant means a very teeth grating encounter).

Ah, not entirely true actually. Mist of the Vale - and importantly Spring's End Aria - are environmental effects. They don't require a clash to take effect. Which is rather handy in this case.

And whether or not fighting has a significantly worse chance of success is questionable as others have noted. I'd prefer to negotiate, honestly, and would be tempted to vote for supplication... But I can sympathise with those who feel that fighting the dragon is simply more fun as an option.

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I'd say that fighting doesn't have a tenth of the chance of supplication, to be honest.

That Ling Qi would hate doing supplication doesn't mean she couldn't do it.

 

[Camellia]

[X] Approach in Strength

I'm against supplication because of that post that brought up how Ling Qi could be triggered by groveling on her belly to someone she at least thinks she could beat. The mentions of how she's not all that good at restraining herself from being herself are reasonable, but after some time thinking about it, the idea of supplication on the level necessary to appease the dragon just makes me feel nauseous.

The dragon however does not have reason to think Ling Qi has reason to apologize, as Xin mentioned that he still does not know who stole from him.

 

[SoothingCoffee]

[X] Approach in Strength

Something something Rules of Nature something.

 

[veekie]

Something something Rules of Nature something.

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Yakety Sax rather.

 

[SITB]

Yes, fighting him probably mean we'll be pasted and be unable to get the site unless it establish our relationship as a minion. OTOH, reading about Ling Qi hating herself for acting like a boot licker is not really fun, either, so going supplication route while probably better is not exactly good either.

Basically, if we were planning to level up our subterfuge or something right now because we were planning to go into social spyroute supplication could be great to get us a taste, but otherwise I think that both routes are bad in specific ways (superiority means probably being pasted, supplicant means a very teeth grating encounter).
I'd say that fighting doesn't have a tenth of the chance of supplication, to be honest.

That Ling Qi would hate doing supplication doesn't mean she couldn't do it.

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Why are you talking about Ling Qi hating herself for being supplicant? This entire quest had been filled with people whom Ling Qi deferred to because they are stronger. Even Ling Qi's tutor Liao Zhu remarked on how she maintains her dignity in the face of arrogance.

When Ling Qi broke down and cried it was after getting her ass handed to her by Sun Liling. Trying to purposefully get her ass kicked by the dragon is far more likely to trigger those memories of helplessness rather than Ling Qi simply acting subservient like she did the entire quest.

 

[Arkeus]

Zeqing nodded, glancing over to Hanyi, who had wandered over to the mirror like surface of the black pool to crouch at its edge. Ling QI blinked as the younger ice spirit poked at the black ice with her finger… and it rippled like unfrozen water. "Hanyi," she called, bringing the girl's attention back up. "You may play in the pool for one half hour, while I explain Ling Qi's lesson. Do not go too deep."

Hanyi's face brightened, and she clapped her hands excitedly. "Thank you Mama! I'll be careful, I promise!" Ling Qi could only stare as the other spirit leapt into the frozen pool with only a silent ripple to mark her passing.

"...How does that work?" she asked, after a brief moment of contemplation.

"Ice does not bar our passage any more than water bars yours," Zeqing replied simply. "The pool is safe enough for spirits like Hanyi and I, who match its nature," she continued as she floated closer, and seated herself lightly on the bench, her sleeves billowing as ice began to crystallize within them, forming her transparent hands. "Seat yourself."

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Mmmh. I guess this might become a minor. 'Explore the Dark Pool'. Now that we are Green/Bronze it should be fairly safe, especially with formless shade.

Why are you talking about Ling Qi hating herself for being supplicant? This entire quest had been filled with people whom Ling Qi deferred to because they are stronger. Even Ling Qi's tutor Liao Zhu remarked on how she maintains her dignity in the face of arrogance.

When Ling Qi broke down and cried it was after getting her ass handed to her by Sun Liling. Trying to purposefully get her ass kicked by the dragon is far more likely to trigger those memories of helplessness rather than Ling Qi simply acting subservient like she did the entire quest.

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The Dragon apparently only accept total arrogance or Subservience. Ling Qi is NOT good at subservience, she tries to be polite but still often fail.... and politeness is far from flat out kneeling down and calling him great master for hours every weeks.

 

[SITB]

Mmmh. I guess this might become a minor. 'Explore the Dark Pool'. Now that we are Green/Bronze it should be fairly safe, especially with formless shade.

The Dragon apparently only accept total arrogance or Subservience. Ling Qi is NOT good at subservience, she tries to be polite but still often fail.... and politeness is far from flat out kneeling down and calling him great master for hours every weeks.

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Remember all those etiquette lessons that Bai Meizhen taught Ling Qi? Or if you are going to exaggerate dragon's reaction so hard and pretended that Ling Qi will need to wash his feet every time they meet I am going to point out that Ling Qi is far more terrible at being arrogant than being subservient, even if she does win it can still blow up in her face because she wouldn't act arrogant enough.

Or are you saying that Ling Qi getting beat up and being sent to the infirmary without achieving anything is somehow preferable to being humble?

 

[Erebeal]

[X] Approach in Supplication

 

[Arkeus]

Remember all those etiquette lessons that Bai Meizhen taught Ling Qi? Or if you are going to exaggerate dragon's reaction so hard and pretended that Ling Qi will need to wash his feet every time they meet I am going to point out that Ling Qi is far more terrible at being arrogant than being subservient, even if she does win it can still blow up in her face because she wouldn't act arrogant enough.

Or are you saying that Ling Qi getting beat up and being sent to the infirmary without achieving anything is somehow preferable to being humble?

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Basically, my understanding of the dragon social abilities is that, yes, you need to act as a caricature, and I am not sure I find Ling Qi acting as a caricature of a bootlicker preferable to being sent to the infirmary and barred from the site forever.

I'm pretty sure we can't win the fight though, as I am not seeing the dragon as anything less than Liling tier, and probably as above Liling as Liling is above us.

 

[NaanContributor]

Mmmh. I guess this might become a minor. 'Explore the Dark Pool'. Now that we are Green/Bronze it should be fairly safe, especially with formless shade.

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Um, wut? Last I checked, Ling Qi can't swim through solid ice, and Zeqing said that exploring it is safe for spirits who share its nature, which we're not. And that's also not how Formless Shade works, it allows us to go through small spaces, but only if we have line of sight, it doesn't let us phase through matter.

 

[SITB]

Basically, my understanding of the dragon social abilities is that, yes, you need to act as a caricature, and I am not sure I find Ling Qi acting as a caricature of a bootlicker preferable to being sent to the infirmary and barred from the site forever.

I'm pretty sure we can't win the fight though, as I am not seeing the dragon as anything less than Liling tier, and probably as above Liling as Liling is above us.

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Even assuming that you are correct you do remember the reason that the site is attractive for us the voters in the first place? It's to help Zhengui and more importantly Bai Meizhen. The entire reason I have been pushing this so hard and fast is not for cultivation benefits, but to repay Bai Meizhen like Ling Qi thinks she ought to do.

Are you really arguing that Ling Qi wouldn't be willing to swallow her pride to help her best friend?

 

[Arkeus]

Um, wut? Last I checked, Ling Qi can't swim through solid ice, and Zeqing said that exploring it is safe for spirits who share its nature, which we're not. And that's also not how Formless Shade works, it allows us to go through small spaces, but only if we have line of sight, it doesn't let us phase through matter.

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Formless Shade might not let us go through Ice (it might, depending on how 'solid' ice is considered), you are right, though, OwS should let us do that to some measure.

Being third realm and so heavily Darkness/Water aligned does mean we might share the Dark Pool's nature to a significant degree, now.

Even assuming that you are correct you do remember the reason that the site is attractive for us the voters in the first place? It's to help Zhengui and more importantly Bai Meizhen. The entire reason I have been pushing this so hard and fast is not for cultivation benefits, but to repay Bai Meizhen like Ling Qi thinks she ought to do.

Are you really arguing that Ling Qi wouldn't be willing to swallow her pride to help her best friend?

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Honestly, that the minor Meizhen dragon disappeared after Ling Qi decided she should stop leading Meizhen on tells me that this minor was not seen as a healthy one by Yrsillar.

While I would like to share the site with Suyin/Meizhen/Xiulan, and it would be of great help with Zhengui, I wouldn't say the site is 'worth' doing something against Ling Qi's desires.

There is a real argument that Ling Qi needs to get back in the groove of manipulating people and using deception, though.

 

[Serous]

[X] Approach in Strength

 

[veekie]

I'm not really seeing the high strength estimation of the dragon being appropriate here. We have word from his mother that he's been slacking, that he's pissed off at us already(i.e. he's going to go above and beyond for submission), and that he prefers either being dominated or to wholly dominate.

We also know that most spirits tend to stall in development. Expecting a spirit not being challenged to hang around indefinitely at the same power

Part of the problem with that then is that:
-Ling Qi's always been free with her tongue. She has been admonished by the following before for being too Ling Qi even when its to her disadvantage:
--Bai Meizhen
--Cai Renxiang
--Han Jian
--Zeqing

-Ling Qi really does think she can take him. He can't beat her stealth back when she was Yellow as it is. Her submission is inherently insincere because she considers the main difficult part being not allowed to actually hurt the dragon.
--Addendum, Ling Qi is capable of stalling Sun Liling for a time while still in Yellow and alone, she is even more confident of being able to stall and frustrate the dragon now that she's in Green with Zhengui supporting her.

-One of the reasons for female dragons having a problem with female humans is that they are known to 'seduce' male dragons(who as a literal symbol of virility, has Tastes for Dem Legs). This is a potential trigger point for Ling Qi, she's very much not comfortable with any such implications.

-Ling Qis' best developed arts are all well suited to an indefinite kiting defense strategy. Its hard for even a DPS specialist to hurt her while she's dedicated to giving them a fine chase after debuffing the shit out of them.

 

[Arkeus]

I'm not really seeing the high strength estimation of the dragon being appropriate here. We have word from his mother that he's been slacking, that he's pissed off at us already(i.e. he's going to go above and beyond for submission), and that he prefers either being dominated or to wholly dominate.

We also know that most spirits tend to stall in development. Expecting a spirit not being challenged to hang around indefinitely at the same power

Part of the problem with that then is that:
-Ling Qi's always been free with her tongue. She has been admonished by the following before for being too Ling Qi even when its to her disadvantage:
--Bai Meizhen
--Cai Renxiang
--Han Jian
--Zeqing

-Ling Qi really does think she can take him. He can't beat her stealth back when she was Yellow as it is. Her submission is inherently insincere because she considers the main difficult part being not allowed to actually hurt the dragon.
--Addendum, Ling Qi is capable of stalling Sun Liling for a time while still in Yellow and alone, she is even more confident of being able to stall and frustrate the dragon now that she's in Green with Zhengui supporting her.

-One of the reasons for female dragons having a problem with female humans is that they are known to 'seduce' male dragons(who as a literal symbol of virility, has Tastes for Dem Legs). This is a potential trigger point for Ling Qi, she's very much not comfortable with any such implications.

-Ling Qis' best developed arts are all well suited to an indefinite kiting defense strategy. Its hard for even a DPS specialist to hurt her while she's dedicated to giving them a fine chase after debuffing the shit out of them.

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Well, here is what we know of him

In a small river valley near to the outer mountain lies a grove of potent third grade fruit trees. It is also the territory of a young river dragon. The creature is at the low end of third grade, but is highly intelligent. Retrieve one full container of fruit. Wounding the dragon is prohibited. 35 points.

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'low end third grade'. If you recall, Wolf alpha was said to be 'early green'. So, dragon is probably Appraisal/Foundation.

You are saying that Ling Qi thinks she can take him, and that it means she'd have issues submitting, and you are right... but Ling qi also thought she could take Chu Song and Liling:

[] Duel her, even if she is above you in cultivation you have a shot. If you can take her out her lackeys shouldn't interfere and she won't be causing any other trouble today.

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[] ...Stay and fight. If she wants a duel she can have one. You aren't weak anymore.

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Ling Qi is notoriously bad at estimating the strength of those higher cultivation level than she is.

The dragon being stronger than current Sun Liling, and being unable to see something that's not either submission or domineering, also explains perfectly well why no one is cultivating at the site. Sun Liling's just not going to lick his boots, nor would CRX or Meizhen.

 

[veekie]

Well, here is what we know of him
'low end third grade'. If you recall, Wolf alpha was said to be 'early green'. So, dragon is probably Appraisal/Foundation.

You are saying that Ling Qi thinks she can take him, and that it means she'd have issues submitting, and you are right... but Ling qi also thought she could take Chu Song and Liling:


Ling Qi is notoriously bad at estimating the strength of those higher cultivation level than she is.

The dragon being stronger than current Sun Liling, and being unable to see something that's not either submission or domineering, also explains perfectly well why no one is cultivating at the site. Sun Liling's just not going to lick his boots, nor would CRX or Meizhen.

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Based on that our best option is to not go at all.

False submission would enrage the dragon more than a fight, going by stereotypes. And as basically everyone can tell, Ling Qi isn't going to grovel nearly enough.