Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[archangis]

Not really.
He does Xiulan a last little boon...
But he is careful to be sure it does not impact his house meaningfully.

And he was cultivating us as a potential asset - first as a retainer, than as an ally.
And it worked- that they have a shot at the Argent Way is the work of Ling Qi, since she traded one Art directly and delivered the other one by taking Xiulan to a trial. We gave him the tools to get into the inner sect next year.

This said, yes, it was nice of him to help a sorry mortal.
He is a nice guy.

Just a politician.

Click to shrink...

Giving up the tournament for someone is not a small little thing.

I can't believe I have to defend that. Would anyone be okay with giving up our own tournament place? Of course not because that's fucking huge.

Edit: I know he got boy cooties, but seriously, giving up a chance to impress the elders by taking a place in the tournament when he was given the explicit order by his familly to impress them is not insignificant.

We literally had meizhen refuse to do a silly ritual because her grandfather would disapprove. Compare this to what he is doing right now. Going against the explicit orders of his patriarch to help a friend/love interest. And you dare tell me that he is a politician for doing so? Fuck this.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

That is adversarial reasoning. This argument implicitly maps to "I gain more than I lose from this transaction", except his loss is that we gained something.

Click to shrink...

That was his explanation to the bratty spirit kitty who doesn't understand how human interpersonal dynamics work and they don't have to be zero sum games.

 

[tenchifew]

Giving up the tournament for someone is not a small little thing.

I can believe I have to defend that. Would anyone be okay with giving up our own tournament place? Of course not because that's fucking huge.

Click to shrink...

He does not give up the tournament.
He believes he has little chance to win, and wants to get at least his closest retainer with him next year, something he cannot achieve this year. Hell, he has even a shot to get Fan Yu through.

He is a leader - he needs his people. Him making it to the inner sect alone is arguably worse for him than waiting an year.

He also puts Xiulan in his debt, and maintains good relations all around.

He is a good guy, and he does want to help Xiulan, but he is also a great politician.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Besides, we still Su Ling a friend even if she 'keeps scores' with her Silverblood Pills.

Click to shrink...

Su Ling doesn't keep score in the same way. She keeps score of what she owes, not what is owed to her. Like, she didn't want to get Argent Current from us for free, and gave us the first Silverblood pill at no cost. And when she actually asked us to pay for the next one she was uncomfortable with it.

It would be like saying that meizhen isn't a friend because she will not give up if we were up against each others in the tournament.

Click to shrink...

It would be like saying that Meizhen isn't a friend because she didn't want to train with us if said training helped us more than it helped her.

 

[Grigori]

It would be like saying that Meizhen isn't a friend because she didn't want to train with us if said training helped us more than it helped her.

Click to shrink...

The fact that she's more powerful than us does make a big difference there. He can't not consider his chances against us.

 

[archangis]

"There are only so many places," he said quietly as much to himself as the cub. '...And Xiulan needs it more.'

Click to shrink...

He does not give up the tournament.
He believes he has little chance to win, and wants to get at least his closest retainer with him next year, something he cannot achieve this year. Hell, he has even a shot to get Fan Yu through.

He is a leader - he needs his people. Him making it to the inner sect alone is arguably worse for him than waiting an year.

He also puts Xiulan in his debt, and maintains good relations all around.

He is a good guy, and he does want to help Xiulan, but he is also a great politician.

Click to shrink...

Read the update, please.

 

[tenchifew]

Read the update, please.

Click to shrink...

...yes, and I did point it out in my post.

He is helping himself and his group by helping Xiulan and letting her go first, thus, for once, removing a toxic element poisoning Fan Yu and his relationship.

He also does a last boon to his old friend.

A great political move, and a compassionate one.

It does not have to be one or the other.

 

[archangis]

It would be like saying that Meizhen isn't a friend because she didn't want to train with us if said training helped us more than it helped her.

Click to shrink...

Do you mean that meizhen is open to giving us her familly arts in exchange for our arts?

No. Visibly, according to you she isn't a friend therefore. As she doesn't want to give us something that help us more than it help her.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

I guess even if we're more advisarial with Han Jian, it's not anything new. He's been like that for awhile now. It's not any different than any of th calculating reasoning thread goes through when deciding minors. I wouldn't mind spending time with somebody we compete with and not be unfriendly. And staying friendly with what will likely be the social power next year can benefit our friends who won't be following us in.

So yeah, all the Han Jian minors. Gan Flexington, Xuan Shi, Gu Tai and Han Jian all bro out as a moon rave breaks out all around them then vanishes just as fast as we chase a butterfly spirit and a gang of moon fairies

 

[tenchifew]

Do you mean that meizhen is open to giving us her familly arts in exchange for our arts?

No. Visibly, according to you she isn't a friend therefore. As she doesn't want to give us something that help us more than it help her.

Click to shrink...

...we are really talking past each other here, don't we.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Do you mean that meizhen is open to giving us her familly arts in exchange for our arts?

No. Visibly, according to you she isn't a friend therefore. As she doesn't want to give us something that help us more than it help her.

Click to shrink...

She isn't giving us her family arts because that is taboo, not because she doesn't want us to get stronger. Even if we offered her really rare and useful things that are more valuable than her art, she wouldn't do that trade, because doing so breaks family rules and traditions. The reason for not giving us her family arts doesn't have anything to do with how much we benefit from them; it has to do with the nature of the offer.

 

[FixerUpper]

Han Jian always seems to get Verily, A Death Eater Approacheth treatment and I am puzzled as to why.

• He 'betrayed' Xiulan by telling her that he would not be marrying her. He's 14. A childhood promise would have been when they were like 8. As betrayals go, it's insignificant.
  
• He considers Ling Qi stiff competition... as did we when we decided not to let GF have access to the vent. Like, sure, interpersonal relations, but people were pushing AWFULLY hard for Su and Li to compete with them and made elaborate arguments as to why he was a threat to them.
  
• He always made time for us. The same was not true in reverse. Let's not throw shade, we broke away from our friendship first, not he.
  
• He's 'holding off' a year. Probably only against Xiulan because he's worried she will literally kill herself for more power if she doesn't get into inner.
  
• In the end, he has got his heart in the right place and his priorities in order. Will he be a beest friend or husbando? Probably not. But no need to go 'what a bad dude.'

 

[tenchifew]

Han Jian always seems to get Verily, A Death Eater Approacheth treatment and I am puzzled as to why.

• He 'betrayed' Xiulan by telling her that he would not be marrying her. He's 14. A childhood promise would have been when they were like 8. As betrayals go, it's insignificant.
  
• He considers Ling Qi stiff competition... as did we when we decided not to let GF have access to the vent. Like, sure, interpersonal relations, but people were pushing AWFULLY hard for Su and Li to compete with them and made elaborate arguments as to why he was a threat to them.
  
• He always made time for us. The same was not true in reverse. Let's not throw shade, we broke away from our friendship first, not he.
  
• He's 'holding off' a year. Probably only against Xiulan because he's worried she will literally kill herself for more power if she doesn't get into inner.
  
• In the end, he has got his heart in the right place and his priorities in order. Will he be a beest friend or husbando? Probably not. But no need to go 'what a bad dude.'

Click to shrink...

What part of "he is a good guy", as I and even Primal repeatedly have said, makes him "a bad dude"?

 

[archangis]

...we are really talking past each other here, don't we.

Click to shrink...

No way. Were did you get that. In the part where you literally ignored the update text to have the fic fit your bias? Or is it the part where one can be friend without having a single minded goal of serving the other?

She isn't giving us her family arts because that is taboo, not because she doesn't want us to get stronger. Even if we offered her really rare and useful things that are more valuable than her art, she wouldn't do that trade, because doing so breaks family rules and traditions. The reason for not giving us her family arts doesn't have anything to do with how much we benefit from them; it has to do with the nature of the offer.

Click to shrink...

Yes. Meizhen value her clan more than she value us. This is exactly the point I was making.

We have seen this with her refusing the meaningless sisterhood ritual because her grandfather would disapprove.

Compare this to Han Jian who is currently going against the explicit orders of his clans to help a friend/love.

Now tell me which one is the best friend here?

Edit: I am getting pretty aggressive here, so I will try going to sleep. But seriously, Han Jian is a great guy and a great friend.

 

[tenchifew]

No way. Were did you get that. In the part where you literally ignored the update text to have the fic fit your bias? Or is it the part where one can be friend without having a single minded goal of serving the other?



Yes. Meizhen value her clan more than she value us. This is exactly the point I was making.

We have seen this with her refusing the meaningless sisterhood ritual because her grandfather would disapprove.

Compare this to Han Jian who is currently going against the explicit orders of his clans to help a friend/love.

Now tell me which one is the best friend here?

Click to shrink...

...and this confirms that we are talking past each other.
I am saying that he is a good guy who is still more loyal to his house than to his friends, but still a good guy.

I am not sure what you are saying.

Whatever, I am out of this conversation.

 

[LucidProp]

What part of "he is a good guy", as I and even Primal repeatedly have said, makes him "a bad dude"?

Click to shrink...

The repeated accussations of "Politician"?

Now, not every Politician is a bad dude, but you have to admit, in the context of a "Might Makes Right" setting and the reputation of the typical people in politics (corrupt, greedy, etc.), Politician brings to mind manipulative sociopaths, not anything positive.

 

[tenchifew]

The repeated accussations of "Politician"?

Now, not every Politician is a bad dude, but you have to admit, in the context of a "Might Makes Right" setting and the reputation of the typical people in politics (corrupt, greedy, etc.), Politician brings to mind manipulative sociopaths, not anything positive.

Click to shrink...

...ok, so nearly all politicians are manipulative sociopaths?

I am sure a lot of people in parliaments around the world have reasons to be offended.

I also do not think all lawyers are evil.

 

[LucidProp]

...ok, so all politicians are manipulative sociopaths?

Click to shrink...

No?

I even said it in my reply.

Now, not every Politician is a bad dude

Click to shrink...

I am sure a lot of people in parliaments around the world have reasons to be offended.

I also do not think all lawyers are evil.

Click to shrink...

What you think doesn't matter.

What matters is that "Politician" has a reputation, and calling someone a "Politician" can be interpreted as an insult. In the eyes of the public, those who actually want to serve the people in Politics are the exception, not the norm.

 

[archangis]

...and this confirms that we are talking past each other.
I am saying that he is a good guy who is still far more loyal to his house than to his friends, but still a good guy.

I am not sure what you are saying.

Whatever, I am out of this conversation.

Click to shrink...

He is literally betraying orders by his house to help a friend. He has been given the explicit orders of making links in the sect, by going into the inner sect for exemple. He is giving his chance in the tournament to help Xiuman that "need it more".

What part of this ever led you to believe that he is far more loyal to his house than to his friend, that I have no clue.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Yes. Meizhen value her clan more than she value us. This is exactly the point I was making.

We have seen this with her refusing the meaningless sisterhood ritual because her grandfather would disapprove.

Compare this to Han Jian who is currently going against the explicit orders of his clans to help a friend/love.

Now tell me which one is the best friend here?

Click to shrink...

He is being a pretty good friend to Xiulan, sure. Not a good friend to us, however.

 

[FixerUpper]

What part of "he is a good guy", as I and even Primal repeatedly have said, makes him "a bad dude"?

Click to shrink...

The tendency to highlight his worst traits in order to discourage any interaction with him is a thing I have seen before. It is probably one of my big regrets in the quest that at that point in the quest I did not do more to argue against it. Unlike the arts arguments, that one was actually worthwhile. He was and remains the best of the nobles we know. Maybe minus CRX who is a different box of cats.

We now know he:

1. got a commoner adopted into his family
2. learned sign language in order to speak to said commoner and treated him like actual family
   
3. befriended ling qi with no prior reason to
4. automatically acts to conciliate rather than attack - even between commoners and nobles

If you think underlining how adversarial he is when, trufax, we were far more adversarial far earlier with far less cause, isn't implicitly calling him out as a bad dude, I don't know what to say. Like, alright, your portrait of him is not completely nuts, but at the same time... he is like the anti-young master.

Reading the latest update just made me realize how much I miss him in this quest, I guess. Sorry if I came off as adversarial myself.

 

[archangis]

He is being a pretty good friend to Xiulan, sure. Not a good friend to us, however.

Click to shrink...

He explicitely think of us as a friend.

Look at what he did for his others friends. Look at his relationship with han Fang, lan lan or Fan Yu.

What do I need to say more? Thd fuy is loyal to a T to his friends. That somehow it would be different for us is just paranoia.

 

[wankongyew]

...and this confirms that we are talking past each other.
I am saying that he is a good guy who is still more loyal to his house than to his friends, but still a good guy.

Click to shrink...

Both sides say that he is a good guy. But one side is also saying that Ling Qi should stop being friends with him because he is also a manipulative politician who puts his own house first.

Anyway if Patriarch Han is already looking for a way to put down the Gu a notch or two, imagine how upset he will be if Han Jian loses to Gu Xiulan. Han Jian really is taking a big risk here.

 

[tricholysis]

I sorta wonder if Han Jian couched his refusal of Xiulan in 'I wish I could but I can't' terms or in 'sorry no bueno I don't feel that way' terms.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Both sides say that he is a good guy. But one side is also saying that Ling Qi should stop being friends with him because he is also a manipulative politician who puts his own house first.

Click to shrink...

Basically. Except I'd replace manipulative with calculating in my personal analysis.

By my reading, HJ views us as a competitor first and a friend second, and there is nothing wrong with that - but it doesn't evoke my interest in having further interactions. Especially in light of the fact that by the time we stop being a competitor, there is good reason to believe that we will be in the inner sect and he won't.