Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

How, though? There are really only two ways I can see for how it synergises with our other arts.

Breath of Stygian Depths creates low light, improving Sable Crescent Step. Except we have multiple other sources: Mist of the Vale, which is cheaper and has other effects that mean it's always the better choice, and the Violet Lotus Gown's Twilight Beauty.
Crawling Horror's worms can be improved through multiple support arts. Except they'll still be shit because we'll be up against Green opponents and they're Early Yellow and they only last five turns at maximum.

On top of that, it's going to be a lot of actions on training and meridians if we want to bring that up to the level of our current main arts (that already do strengthen each other) that would serve us much better going towards our other arts, Frozen Soul Serenade in particular.
AE is likely to be one of our fastest art to get to AE4 (so early green). AE5 is sadly unlikely, but AE4 should be enough to have Late Yellow worms, as well as a third tech (maybe a fourth). While the aesthetics of worms are really not liked in the playerbase, hopefully the new techs would be better for that.

I am also hopeful that new techs would all focus on summons, simply because AE, FVM, FSS all share very similar first techs, so it appears this is basically a "lung meridian" thing.

Now that I have dealt with the emotional response to the passive-aggressive implications that my argumentation regarding tutoring for meridians was done in bad faith, let me attempt to explain the mechanics of why such argumentation was not done in bad faith, and what needs to happen should you wish to continue a debate/argument regarding tutoring meridians.

The claim that tutoring for meridians is the worst use of tutoring is, and has been conceded to be, false. The argument I used pointed to examples that tutoring for something else was worse than tutoring for meridians. The examples that were used were rational examples of something that we might consider tutoring depending on how we would want Ling Qi to progress, they were carefully chosen for the plausibility of occurring and not simply for being the worse things I could think of. There are plenty of worse things, as you have pointed out yourself, than physical/spiritual tutoring.

Tutoring's primary purpose is to fundamentally increase the chances of a cultivation action taking 1 less turn to achieve. In this way, if done correctly, we can spend two actions to reduce the action required of two arts by 1, necessitating an equal trade. We gain from this through stealth successes, and more fundamental rewards done from missions, as well as the overlap from doing multiple 20 point missions to accomplish tutoring.

At the moment, we have 48 sect points that are doing absolutely nothing. Rather than sitting on them for an indefinite period of time, thus creating no value from them for as long as we hold on to them, it is better to spend them in order to get some return on our investment. As we can not be sure at this stage whether a tutoring of a specific option ( i.e. arts) will save us a cultivation action regarding said arts the next best thing is to use the tutoring for its immediate mechanical effects, gaining a cultivation action during a week.

However, without arts, spiritual, or physical cultivation that would benefit from such an extra action (as meridians are needed for equipping, learning, or progressing in various fundamental arts of our build) that leaves functionally, meridians or qi. Qi cultivation with a tutor is... not what we need right now, and will probably never need it. However, we do need the meridians to equip, learn, or progress arts that we value (such as AM, AE, FSS, and possibly PLR). In that sense, tutoring meridians jump starts that progress while still leaving open four other actions for other cultivation.

If you wish to actually debate/argue this point, then you are going to need to rationally with articulation explain how tutoring meridians is an inefficient use of stored up sect points.
But none of this is true, though.

Tutoring for meridian is the worst use of Tutoring we can plausibly get unless we are going for SLP week. You didn't try to go for plausible use of tutors, there, you tried to go for use of tutors that would be literally useless... and even then, are arguably not as bad as meridian tutoring. Hence my sarcastic answer.

Tutoring is important in order to a°) make contacts in the inner sects that share our focus (so tutoring in expression, or archery, or moon, or whatever), b°) to gain a major action, c°) to get art goodies that we couldn't get otherwise when impressing tutors.

Tutoring meridian means not being able to find a tutor that shares a focus with us, it means losing an action (as we are close to the threshold of double meridian opening with white room, and we can't do it with tutoring), and it means we can't easily get art goodies from tutoring. We are flat out better at opening meridians without tutors currently.

So, yes, if we choose to take tutoring in something like "learn to fight with only one leg by cutting off our right leg" it's worse, but arguing this is bad faith.

In order to get anywhere by the tournament, we are going to very likely try for 2Tutor/3weeks or some such. Argent Tutor, Music Tutors, Movement Tutors, Defense tutors, Support Tutors, we are going to see them all. Tutoring for something we are better at without tutoring, and that doesn't make us meet someone sharing our interests, however, is ridiculously ineffective.
 
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Again, the biggest problem is that Renxiang is a complicated character, and yrsillar's been struggling portraying that in a way that doesn't flanderize her or downplay just how terrible her life is when she has one of the closest things to a god that matters in day to day life taking a direct and personal interest in shaping her into something she intuitively doesn't necessarily want to be.

Stumbling leads to stuff like Caigate--and the problem with Renxiang is that she's always present, and she got her offer in first--so that means that everything she ever does gets scrutinized with a fine tooth comb--while the Sect offer (The one that's currently the strongest from my read on the IC portrayals and overall thread sentiment) is one that's leaving itself mysterious, only making moves in story when they can present themselves in the best possible light, and thus can take advantage of limited information to let us dream up whatever we want after getting through the gates.

Making use of their inability to directly interact with us except in strictly regimented ways if you will to avoid any of their own dirty laundry.

And everyone has dirty laundry. It's a fact of life that the only ones who can afford to be perfectly pure are not people who live in the world anymore. We don't know the full scope of the Sect's problems because they control the flow of information--and even if they can't directly hand us an offer, they certainly can suppress anything that might make a future offer of theirs look less appealing.

Like, even looking at purely OOC information, we know that they're having funding issues--that it would basically take them raising up a crop of disciples for the various governmental officials--on their own dime I might add--in order to have a chance at getting what they need. We got that in the prologue after all.

The chief problem with Renxiang's route is that she's a complicated character, and we don't innately click by nature--Ling Qi being a street rat with great talent, and Renxiang literally tailored into something that Shenhua can use to get a ground's eye view of things. We get an absolute material advantage (Which I have little doubt would include whatever Arts we need--the Cai likely have a vast library from Shenhua's gallivanting and purges), but have no safety net walking the proverbial tightrope, and have to provide support for her constant battle between the person she is, and the thing she has to be to avoid being destroyed by the creature that is Cai Shenhua.

The Sect's advantage is having unlimited access to teachers and a well established curriculum for raising Disciples at least to the Fifth or Sixth Realm or so--that's a fairly safe bet at least, given how we've not seen an Elder below Violet yet. What we don't know is what the "But here's the problems that come with it" are yet.

Gu Tai's advantages and disadvantages are both clear. It's reasonably dangerous, but also reasonably profitable and has decent--if not exceptional--support going for it. The only problem is that few people have followed this story for this long and have decided to be happy playing Terraria instead. Which is fun, but pretty lacking in structure to boot.

And of course, the Bai Route is a non-starter. Literally everything is saying "DO NOT DO THIS THING IT IS A BAD IDEA"
 
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Honestly, Sect route is the easiest. It's basically the default route. It's the one we'd go for if we couldn't think of anything else.

Add Xin and Jiao shenanigans on top of that, and all yrsillar had to do to make it attractive was have Xin tell us "yes, you can have more of this".

Cai is the hardest route. In particular it's hard for us to know if we can have a relationship with Cai that we like - which is what has caused us so much difficulty. Heck, as someone who was one of the biggest proponent of the narrative opportunities of the Cai route back at the start, I'm honestly on the fence right now. Because dealing with Cai is hard. There's a really interesting and good story here. There's great opportunities for Ling Qi to become great. Great opportunities for good character arcs and development.

But it will be hard.

Now, Gu route is, I feel, underrated. It strikes me as one that will take us out of our safe zone a bit, and provide really interesting challenges while being a lot of fun. Tai seems like a great character, and it will obviously let us continue to hang out with the Golden Fields crew and our BFF#2 more. He might not have a lot of pull right now, but my feeling is that if we refuse Cai's offer and spend plenty of time with him over the remainder of the year we'll come to like him a lot. Honestly, I kind of favor this route a bit, and feel like it could be the most fun.
 
Truthfully, each of the three options (Bai route doesn't count) has strengths and weaknesses.

I think they are fairly represented.
Well, perhaps the Golden Fields route would be a stronger pick if it didn't come with a marriage.

If anything, I regret there not being an additional one or two possible routes (that are not almost pure abstractions at the moment like MoI) for us to argue over.
 
Truthfully, each of the three options (Bai route doesn't count) has strengths and weaknesses.

I think they are fairly represented.
Well, perhaps the Golden Fields route would be a stronger pick if it didn't come with a marriage.

If anything, I regret there not being an additional one or two possible routes (that are not almost pure abstractions at the moment like MoI) for us to argue over.

Seems pretty clear that Sect Route feeds into stuff like the Ministry Route or the like.

Remember what was said in the prologue? "Give some good Imperial Guard or Ministry candidates and we'll see about raising your funding"
 
Gu Tai offer is a non starter because it involves Ling Qi accepting a marriage proposal at the age of 15.

He can be the Sage Emperor reborn, the handsomest guy in existence and so caring that he can turn a Yuki Onna heart half circle and it still wouldn't matter because of the marriage proposal; it's innately skivvy.

I could argue about the other perceived flaws, but I straight up admit that this option is basically at the same pool of 'god no this is a terrible idea' as the Bai Meizhen option.
 
Gu Tai offer is a non starter because it involves Ling Qi accepting a marriage proposal at the age of 15.

He can be the Sage Emperor reborn, the handsomest guy in existence and so caring that he can turn a Yuki Onna heart half circle and it still wouldn't matter because of the marriage proposal; it's innately skivvy.

I could argue about the other perceived flaws, but I straight up admit that this option is basically at the same pool of 'god no this is a terrible idea' as the Bai Meizhen option.
It doesn't, though? It involves initiating a betrothal that would last for several years and could be backed out of. It's not the same as being his fiancee would be in the US. And honestly, the Gu, knowing their offer is weak and we don't have support, would probably let us scope it out for a few years if we wanted. I think the offer's unpopularity is really about people not wanting a political marriage.
 
It doesn't, though? It involves initiating a betrothal that would last for several years and could be backed out of. It's not the same as being his fiancee would be in the US. And honestly, the Gu, knowing their offer is weak and we don't have support, would probably let us scope it out for a few years if we wanted. I think the offer's unpopularity is really about people not wanting a political marriage.
Iirc, @yrsillar once said that even Yan Fu's and Gu Xiulan's marriage is not expected to happen before their mid twenties as earlier on is the best time to cultivate full time. If we go Gu Tai I am not expecting our marriage to him happen before at least a few years after the army (so in 15 years or so).

By that time, things will be very different.
 
I honestly feel like Cai is a satisfyingly narrated character. Some people felt that she was 2-dimensional or the like, but that hasn't been my impression. Mind you, she is distinctly different from the norm in some ways, but we knew that would be a thing going in, and frankly we've dealt with people who are no less inhuman (Zeqing comes to mind).

My problem with Cai is that I'm just not attached to her. ...And that is a post in-and-of itself, which I will maybe put together sometime that isn't the middle of the night.
 
It doesn't, though? It involves initiating a betrothal that would last for several years and could be backed out of. It's not the same as being his fiancee would be in the US. And honestly, the Gu, knowing their offer is weak and we don't have support, would probably let us scope it out for a few years if we wanted. I think the offer's unpopularity is really about people not wanting a political marriage.

Yeah, a proposal that has Ling Qi move in with Gu Tai for a couple of years to the backend of nowhere while being relying on his resources to live is not coercive at all!

It's about power dynamics, and currently it's incredibly fucked up offer. It makes sense from his view and the larger view of the setting, but from my view it is pretty goddamned gross.
 
I honestly feel like Cai is a satisfyingly narrated character. Some people felt that she was 2-dimensional or the like, but that hasn't been my impression. Mind you, she is distinctly different from the norm in some ways, but we knew that would be a thing going in, and frankly we've dealt with people who are no less inhuman (Zeqing comes to mind).

My problem with Cai is that I'm just not attached to her. ...And that is a post in-and-of itself, which I will maybe put together sometime that isn't the middle of the night.
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it really.

And that's really the big challenge with the Cai route in general. If Cai was easy to love, then the route would be much easier to take.
 
Yeah, a proposal that has Ling Qi move in with Gu Tai for a couple of years to the backend of nowhere while being relying on his resources to live is not coercive at all!

It's about power dynamics, and currently it's incredibly fucked up offer. It makes sense from his view and the larger view of the setting, but from my view it is pretty goddamned gross.
By the time we do live with him we'd be stronger cultivation wise than him, and as it won't be in proper Gu lands there won't be anyone stronger than us around.

Sure, we'd be relying on him because he'd be the link to the greater Gu clan, but it won't be half as coercive as if we were alone without allies and weaker. We'll likely also have our own allies around, too.
 
By the time we do live with him we'd be stronger cultivation wise than him, and as it won't be in proper Gu lands there won't be anyone stronger than us around.

Sure, we'd be relying on him because he'd be the link to the greater Gu clan, but it won't be half as coercive as if we were alone without allies and weaker. We'll likely also have our own allies around, too.

Yeah, Ling is totally going to reach Sixth level of green and bronze in a year while Gu Tai remains in place; particularly after the expected system changes (I am pretty sure that Ling Qi has one year to remain in the sect before being whisked to do her community service).

And Ling would totally be without allies because all of her friends, barring the Golden Group, are part of the central provinces and Gu Tai mentioned that part of the appeal of going to the frontier is being isolated from the politicking of the Golden Fields (and of course the fact that it's quite likely that the Golden Fields group would remain in the Argent Sect a few more years to study and make connections).

All of this builds up to the fact that Ling Qi will be alone and seperated from her friends while living by Gu Tai's grace, so even if she becomes stronger than him in 2 years there would be the undercurrent of paying him back for his generosity with the implication of marriage.

That's why it coercive in the first place.
 
Coercive is too strong a word in-setting wise, but I understand where are you coming from.

That said, we really shouldn't project modern western morality on what is a xianxia setting.
 
Coercive is too strong a word in-setting wise, but I understand where are you coming from.

That said, we really shouldn't project modern western morality on what is a xianxia setting.

I admitted that from an in-universe point of view it's not particularly objectionable. But from my point of view as a voter I don't see why I should vote nor encourage voting for a choice I hold as objectionable, moreso considering the fact that the costs outweigh the benefits by far and Ling Qi already has two reasonable choices.
 
Yeah, Ling is totally going to reach Sixth level of green and bronze in a year while Gu Tai remains in place; particularly after the expected system changes (I am pretty sure that Ling Qi has one year to remain in the sect before being whisked to do her community service).

And Ling would totally be without allies because all of her friends, barring the Golden Group, are part of the central provinces and Gu Tai mentioned that part of the appeal of going to the frontier is being isolated from the politicking of the Golden Fields (and of course the fact that it's quite likely that the Golden Fields group would remain in the Argent Sect a few more years to study and make connections).

All of this builds up to the fact that Ling Qi will be alone and seperated from her friends while living by Gu Tai's grace, so even if she becomes stronger than him in 2 years there would be the undercurrent of paying him back for his generosity with the implication of marriage.

That's why it coercive in the first place.
Gu route is not going to GF next year, but after Sect Army, so in ten years.

So, yes, Ling Qi is totally going to be higher level than Gu Tai in ten+ years.

Ling Qi also very likely will be able to bring some of her friends to GF in ten years (Su Ling wants to hermit it up and help people, Suyin might like building her own place with us, Xiulan might want to be away from her sister to build her name, etc).

EDIT: Not as long as I thought, but still not next year:
Xiulan frowned at her, but Gu Tai laughed. "There would indeed be much scrabbling," he admitted. "But nowhere else in the empire will you find the possibilities of past treasures, and rich resources, lost under a bit of sand and ash," he said, the lines of thunder running through his qi pulsing. "I am afraid it would be at least two years, more likely three, before any such things were finalized however. You would have to remain under the Sect for that time."
 
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Gu route is not going to GF next year, but after Sect Army, so in ten years.

So, yes, Ling Qi is totally going to be higher level than Gu Tai in ten+ years.

Ling Qi also very likely will be able to bring some of her friends to GF in ten years (Su Ling wants to hermit it up and help people, Suyin might like building her own place with us, Xiulan might want to be away from her sister to build her name, etc).

EDIT: Not as long as I thought, but still not next year:

As you yorself noted it's going to be 2/3 years to pass someone who still cultivates. It's nonsensical given the fact that yrsillar mentioned that he intends to bump the difficulty of cultivating to grant more gravitas to each stage.

You also seem to think that Li Suyin would just leave her prospects in the sect behind and go with Ling Qi because she asked her and assume that Ling would actually ask that given the fact that Li Suyin would be just as rootless as Ling Qi and dependent on Gu Tai hospitality, ditto for Su Ling.

(And Xiulan wouldn't accept handouts from Ling Qi either way so ???? The only way Ling Qi would see her in that instance is if Xiulan visits her when she returns to the Golden Fields for whatever reason).
 
As you yorself noted it's going to be 2/3 years to pass someone who still cultivates. It's nonsensical given the fact that yrsillar mentioned that he intends to bump the difficulty of cultivating to grant more gravitas to each stage.

You also seem to think that Li Suyin would just leave her prospects in the sect behind and go with Ling Qi because she asked her and assume that Ling would actually ask that given the fact that Li Suyin would be just as rootless as Ling Qi and dependent on Gu Tai hospitality, ditto for Su Ling.

(And Xiulan wouldn't accept handouts from Ling Qi either way so ???? The only way Ling Qi would see her in that instance is if Xiulan visits her when she returns to the Golden Fields for whatever reason).
Yrsillar, when noting things will be much harder, said we shouldn't expect to get to Cyan before 19/20. 2/3 years are enough for us to get to completion green if we assume that getting from completion green to Cyan is the longest part. No matter what, though, is that thinking we need 2/3 years to pass someone who is Green 6 but has been cultivating much longer than us is not out of bound.

He almost certainly is not going to get to Cyan in that time... and if he is, it means he is having a higher potential than expected, but it doesn't mean we won't be close on his heels, and he would know it. As our future husband he would know better than to be coercive, there. I also wouldn't mind him being talented.

Xiulan coming wouldn't be a 'hand out', it would be if she doesn't want to follow the same path as her sister and doesn't want to be in mainstay GF. This is not certain, but not unlikely. Likewise, Suyin coming after 2/3 years wouldn't be surprising at all.
 
I will admit, I feel like I made a mistake in not presenting other options closer to when Cai's was introduced, so I will thank you for the feedback. Thanks for sticking with me through the stumbles doods.
To be fair, real life rarely presents you all the avaliable choices and extra time for you to make a informed choice.
It makes sense that the people we are closer to, or at least working with, are those that gave access to the future paths the soonest.
 
Eh, yeah, the Gu route is pretty much not even on my list as a potential vote. It has too heavy a downside in that marriage, even if it is delayed to far in the future. The expectations of a betrothed woman in a heavily patriarchal society is not a fun one. Ling Qi will be expected to bow to Gu on certain matters, if not by the guy himself, everyone around them. That sorta pressure... well nope. Not for Ling Qi, not for someone who values her freedom.
 
Yrsillar, when noting things will be much harder, said we shouldn't expect to get to Cyan before 19/20. 2/3 years are enough for us to get to completion green if we assume that getting from completion green to Cyan is the longest part. No matter what, though, is that thinking we need 2/3 years to pass someone who is Green 6 but has been cultivating much longer than us is not out of bound.

He almost certainly is not going to get to Cyan in that time... and if he is, it means he is having a higher potential than expected, but it doesn't mean we won't be close on his heels, and he would know it. As our future husband he would know better than to be coercive, there. I also wouldn't mind him being talented.

Xiulan coming wouldn't be a 'hand out', it would be if she doesn't want to follow the same path as her sister and doesn't want to be in mainstay GF. This is not certain, but not unlikely. Likewise, Suyin coming after 2/3 years wouldn't be surprising at all.

The amount of successes required was changed from 600 to 1200 to slow down the progression of stages. Assuming that Ling Qi will reach peak green in 3 years while Gu Tai remains stagnant is pretty goddamed weird (also Gu Tai is about 2 or 3 years older given the fact that he was constantly described as boy past his first appearance). And even if somehow Ling Qi reaches the same level as Gu Tai we know that the Gu family is patriarchal, and guess who controls tbe land and sets cultural norms and thus has the power in the relationship?

Li Suyin has no reason to actually move out from her cushy sect position to somewhere else. The fact that you think she would do this simply because Ling asks her to is kinda fucked up. She isn't Ling Qi subordinate y'know? Nor her best friend. And even if she did do it against all reason she still would be in the same boat as Ling Qi as having no connection to anyone or anything bar the grace of Gu Tai.

Gu Tai himself is likely not coercive; but the offer itself is. Which is why I said that the offer is a non starter in the first place.

(If Xiulan wants freedom from the expectations of the Gu family she won't move back to the Gu family lands. Certainly not where she would be subordinate to Gu Tai because of the aforementioned patriarchy)
 
Honestly, I'm in favour of the Cai route mainly because Cai route is also the healthy-relationship-with-Meizhen route. I want to stay as close to her as possible without screwing us both up.
 
The amount of successes required was changed from 600 to 1200 to slow down the progression of stages. Assuming that Ling Qi will reach peak green in 3 years while Gu Tai remains stagnant is pretty goddamed weird (also Gu Tai is about 2 or 3 years older given the fact that he was constantly described as boy past his first appearance). And even if somehow Ling Qi reaches the same level as Gu Tai we know that the Gu family is patriarchal, and guess who controls tbe land and sets cultural norms and thus has the power in the relationship?

Li Suyin has no reason to actually move out from her cushy sect position to somewhere else. The fact that you think she would do this simply because Ling asks her to is kinda fucked up. She isn't Ling Qi subordinate y'know? Nor her best friend. And even if she did do it against all reason she still would be in the same boat as Ling Qi as having no connection to anyone or anything bar the grace of Gu Tai.

Gu Tai himself is likely not coercive; but the offer itself is. Which is why I said that the offer is a non starter in the first place.

(If Xiulan wants freedom from the expectations of the Gu family she won't move back to the Gu family lands. Certainly not where she would be subordinate to Gu Tai because of the aforementioned patriarchy)
I do not think Gu Tai will be stagnant. I think that getting to Cyan is hard, and that Gu Yanmei is a genius for getting there at 22. It will take a decade, I think, for Gu Tai to get there... but 4/5 years for us. The reason the successes went from 600 to 1200 is to reflect that.

Also, Gu Yanmei, at 22, looks the same age as Ling Qi.

I do not think Suyin will move "because Ling Qi ask her to", I think Suyin will actually want to move and do things, and if Ling Qi moves somewhere that's good for her, she'll want to come. The idea that we'd be 'forcing' her is weird.

Honestly, I'm in favour of the Cai route mainly because Cai route is also the healthy-relationship-with-Meizhen route. I want to stay as close to her as possible without screwing us both up.
Yeah, Meizhen hinted very strongly that she doesn't want us to go in the sect, and she probably won't see us much if we go with Gu Tai.

This is why I was a bit surprised when @yrsillar said that cai route had "asbolute material advantage over the other options" to counterbalance Ling Qi being so different from CRX. I would have said "Being told we might lose Meizhen social link with Gu or Sect route" more than counterbalance any social issues we have with CRX.
 
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