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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Thor's Twin said:
Alright, let us take it in parts here.

You are clearly misreading the post I made if you are claiming that it is implying the purpose of the two mission plan is to have the mission successes help speed up EPC. Either that or I improperly communicated it. Either way, the purpose of not doing meridians in that week is to give EPC a chance to give us dice to meridian cultivation. That would give a higher possibility of doing two meridians in a single action with the White Room.

Then, doing two missions in a week will allow us to get over 100 sect points. And the point of having that many sect points is so that over the course of the next three weeks we could get a tutor each of those weeks. There is no need to spend all the sect points at once, and to claim that we need to is utterly absurd given that we have already stocked piled 48 sect points for weeks now without using it. We don't need to use sect points as fast as we gather them.

Next, doing two missions in a single week is not losing successes if you assume that the missions selected won't give the full, or any, stealth successes. Which given the missions I listed is a good assumption. Should you judge a mission solely on the number of EPC successes that it will give you, then you are going to lose out on interesting, intriguing, and useful missions simply because of a refusal to do something that doesn't directly impact our cultivation.

Last, doing a tutor for meridians is not the worst use of a tutor, by far. A simple example is using a tutor to do a physical cultivation action when we aren't even going for Bronze 2. Next is doing a tutor for spiritual cultivation if we don't want to get to Green 2 (and even then it's probably a waste as the extra successes would be of much higher import). Next worst is arguably EPC, as we will be getting EPC anyway, it won't save an action at all and the rest will be going to Qi. In fact, Meridian training with tutors probably fall into this, as the additional successes will be going to something useful. So extra is not a waste, and getting the extra meridian a turn earlier will allow us to use the arts we have a turn earlier, which would allow us to do things that might get us resources earlier. Attaching a skill to train with meridians is a bit trickier, but not impossible.
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Do you have any textual evidence that EPC will start giving a bonus to meridian opening rolls at level 5?
 
PrimalShadow said:
It would require a considerable amount of work, and would require us to curb our ambitions with regards to leveling our other arts. It would also only end up getting us another art, which is of questionable value when we are already drowning in arts to cultivate.

As it is, we already have Green level arts that we are currently struggling to fill out; what do you plan on sacrificing to make room for training Argent Storm to 5 and Agent Questionmark to a competitive level?


I said "if they both would have given stealth successes". That is by no means guaranteed; I'd give it roughly 20% odds or thereabouts. Nevertheless, that is still a significant waste, and not something I'd want us doing without good reason.
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We basically have earned us a secret art - a staple of the genre and something that is always worth it.

Argent Arts themselves are already hidden ones, but the fourth one is probably something a young cultivator earns once in five years or less - we were good, but needed a lot of luck even so.
It is bound to be amazing, on another level from "usual" green arts, it probably will earn us attention of Elders as well.

I would not be surprised if it would get us automatic lessons from the Elders.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
I said "if they both would have given stealth successes". That is by no means guaranteed; I'd give it roughly 20% odds or thereabouts. Nevertheless, that is still a significant waste, and not something I'd want us doing without good reason.
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It's only a waste if the quests give 3 stealth rolls or more. We need 2 rolls to hope to hit the weekly cap.

I don't think Ysrillar has called for the mini-vote tally yet, and since we currently have "2 Imperial Eight Sets: High Quality second grade cores of each of the eight imperial elements"
we could use the market action for:

[X] Purchase Plans
-[X] -Exotic Elements (Moon) 10 dice.
-[X] Argent Arts training talisman using one Imperial Eight Beastcores Sets


Or one without the cores to get it instantly. It seems like this kind of talisman would be in pretty high demand in the Argent Sect...
Adhoc vote count started by Ayashi on Feb 24, 2018 at 5:14 PM, finished with 52544 posts and 17 votes.
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tenchifew said:
We basically have earned us a secret art - a staple of the genre and something that is always worth it.

Argent Arts themselves are already hidden ones, but the fourth one is probably something a young cultivator earns once in five years or less - we were good, but needed a lot of luck even so.
It is bound to be amazing, on another level from "usual" green arts, it probably will earn us attention of Elders as well.

I would not be surprised if it would get us automatic lessons from the Elders.
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It's a certainty that if we're staying with the sect next year, then we should work on this art. However, for tournament strength, I'm unconvinced that it's definitely better than our spirit granted arts, which are also a rare thing. Progress in those will also get the attention of people or spirits far beyond us in cultivation.
I'm also unconvinced that it's higher quality than the family arts used by our competition.
I will of course concede that it's on another level from the early green arts in the library.


Mostly, I think its priority versus our other potential high priority arts is about narrative and our path, which there is a dramatic lack of consensus on.
 
Chronic said:
Shouldn't Argent Questionmark start at Green level? After all you need to master the three other arts to Green to get it, so it would make sense for it to start where the other arts end. So probably only one or two levels to cap without going Appraisal?
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It would not surprise me if it starts at Green, but even then that is several hundred successes to get there.

tenchifew said:
It is bound to be amazing, on another level from "usual" green arts, it probably will earn us attention of Elders as well.
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"Amazing" is highly relative. What is good for one cultivator may not be good for another - and something that is good in general may not be especially useful in a 1v1 tournament format. The Argent Arts overall have very little synergy with our other arts, and even if Argent Questionmark is great for an Argent build we aren't doing an Argent build.

Mind you, I have no doubt whatsoever that we will learn it eventually; I simply question whether it makes sense to do so before the tournament.

On a related note, I notice that you specifically did not answer my question - so I'll reiterate it for your convenience. As it is, we already have Green level arts that we are currently struggling to fill out; what do you plan on sacrificing to make room for training Argent Storm to 5 and Agent Questionmark to a competitive level?
 
Chronic said:
Do we even have enough time left to develop yet another art? I was under the impression that trying to get PoLR and FSS up and running plus upgrading our existing arts and other commitments is gonna be tough enough until the tournament.
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We actually have a ton of time if we're willing to prioritize.

We also don't know if we can train PoLR yet. It was described by Xin as something to work on after we mastered SCS and FVM.
 
Shouldn't we try to at least reach Argent Storm 5 ? After all we need Han Jian to train it and we are really not certain to be with him/ be able to train with him after the tournament.
At least we have the jade slip for AC so we have time for it
 
PrimalShadow said:
It would not surprise me if it starts at Green, but even then that is several hundred successes to get there.


"Amazing" is highly relative. What is good for one cultivator may not be good for another - and something that is good in general may not be especially useful in a 1v1 tournament format. The Argent Arts overall have very little synergy with our other arts, and even if Argent Questionmark is great for an Argent build we aren't doing an Argent build.

Mind you, I have no doubt whatsoever that we will learn it eventually; I simply question whether it makes sense to do so before the tournament.

On a related note, I notice that you specifically did not answer my question - so I'll reiterate it for your convenience. As it is, we already have Green level arts that we are currently struggling to fill out; what do you plan on sacrificing to make room for training Argent Storm to 5 and Agent Questionmark to a competitive level?
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Thousand Ring Fortress and Abyssal Exhalation as maybes.
We can master both of them later.
 
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Aze said:
Shouldn't we try to at least reach Argent Storm 5 ? After all we need Han Jian to train it and we are really not certain to be with him/ be able to train with him after the tournament.
At least we have the jade slip for AC so we have time for it
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likely so, but training it with enough time left after to master a green level art is another matter.
tenchifew said:
Thousand Ring Fortress and Abyssal Exhalation as maybes.
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Mm, I for one am not in favor of putting TRF at low priority; I think having a defensive art like that is important.
 
PrimalShadow said:
I like your enthusiasm, but I think the space of plans we would actually want is smaller than you are making it out to be.
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On the contrary, the planning space that contains the plan that we want is much larger than what I have expressed. To say that these specific options are the ones that we want and that we can have no other is denying the possibility that the narrative and mechanical effects of having a different plan that doesn't have those options is better than what has currently been created.

To confine the plan making process to a specific permutation of tasks and claiming that all plans that don't have those tasks must be worse limits the possibilities that might solve the problems we have. Opening up the plan making process inherently gives more options for terrible plans, but also opens up the opportunity to find a solution that is outside of the box that could be better.

As of now, without knowing the roll for EPC, to claim that any task should be included is premature, as it could very well be possible to finish EPC with the stealth successes from a mission. So that removes EPC cultivation from the table, and the argument could also be made to delay tutoring with Zeqing another week. It doesn't have to be taken. Making plans at the moment is fine and all, but restricting what we want to do seems to be premature
 
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George said:
likely so, but training it with enough time left after to master a green level art is another matter.
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Oh no don't worry, I am not arguing on training the last Argent Art, just unlocking it so we will not have to track down Han Jian/get indebted to a stonger Inner Sect student, it would be a little annoying.
Regardless, the next level of AS has a leg meridian and we all know that more speed is always good :tongue:
 
Thor's Twin said:
On the contrary, the planning space that contains the plan that we want is much larger than what I have expressed. To say that these specific options are the ones that we want and that we can have no other is denying the possibility that the narrative and mechanical effects of having a different plan that doesn't have those options is better than what has currently been created.

To confine the plan making process to a specific permutation of tasks and claiming that all plans that don't have those tasks must be worse limits the possibilities that might solve the problems we have. Opening up the plan making process inherently gives more options for terrible plans, but also opens up the opportunity to find a solution that is outside of the box that could be better.

As of now, without knowing the roll for EPC, to claim that any task should be included is premature, as it could very well be possible to finish EPC with the stealth successes from a mission. So that removes EPC cultivation from the table, and the argument could also be made to delay tutoring with Zeqing another week. It doesn't have to be taken. Making plans at the moment is fine and all, but restricting what we want to do seems to be premature
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Personally, you definitely can't convince me not to vote for a Zeqing plan, and if we don't do Dragon this week you also won't be able to convince me to vote for it in future weeks.
 
Thor's Twin said:
As of now, without knowing the roll for EPC, to claim that any task should be included is premature, as it could very well be possible to finish EPC with the stealth successes from a mission. So that removes EPC cultivation from the table, and the argument could also be made to delay tutoring with Zeqing another week. It doesn't have to be taken. Making plans at the moment is fine and all, but restricting what we want to do seems to be premature
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Of course any plan making right now is operating at less than 100% information. There is a low but nonzero chance that we can get EPC this turn. There is similarly a low but nonzero probability that the minors next turn will be in a permutation that make certain major plans untenable. Hell, we might get an interrupt sometime this turn that overturns all of our plans. Lots of stuff is possible, and locking in a given plan right now is indeed premature.

Thankfully, nobody is asking us to lock in a plan right now. Thus, we can safely talk about what we ought to plan for given typical outcomes for the turn. That is what I am doing.


As far as removing EPC cultivation and doing a mission, that is certainly something we could do, but I don't believe it is something we want to do. Right now, we don't have any missions that are guaranteed to give stealth successes; merely give a decent chance at them. I do not believe the risk is justified, especially when any mission successes can be added to SCS, and they do almost as much good there as they do with EPC.

As far as delaying Zeqing tutoring, certainly, that is among the domain of things we could do, but it is very clearly not something we should do. There are reasons both mechanical and narrative that we want to take a Zeqing action this coming week, and a plan that don't do it without an extraordinarily compelling reason is a waste of time.

Thor's Twin said:
To confine the plan making process to a specific permutation of tasks and claiming that all plans that don't have those tasks must be worse limits the possibilities that might solve the problems we have. Opening up the plan making process inherently gives more options for terrible plans, but also opens up the opportunity to find a solution that is outside of the box that could be better.
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And you are welcome to brainstorm. I merely claim that it is exceedingly unlikely that you are going to find a plan with any chance of being optimal if you go outside those parameters.

In point of fact, I'll note that the last couple of turns, we ALSO had a wide array of choices for what we could do. It seems a bit self-contradictory for you to simultaneously sing the virtue of not accepting artificial restrictions on our plan space and then simultaneously express gratitude over us not needing to breakthorugh and therefore opening up options despite the fact that the pre-breakthrough weeks also had most of the same options and our reason for being constrained to only one or two non-breakthrough actions was equally artificial. You can't have it both ways.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Alright, let us take it in parts here.

You are clearly misreading the post I made if you are claiming that it is implying the purpose of the two mission plan is to have the mission successes help speed up EPC. Either that or I improperly communicated it. Either way, the purpose of not doing meridians in that week is to give EPC a chance to give us dice to meridian cultivation. That would give a higher possibility of doing two meridians in a single action with the White Room.

Then, doing two missions in a week will allow us to get over 100 sect points. And the point of having that many sect points is so that over the course of the next three weeks we could get a tutor each of those weeks. There is no need to spend all the sect points at once, and to claim that we need to is utterly absurd given that we have already stocked piled 48 sect points for weeks now without using it. We don't need to use sect points as fast as we gather them.

Next, doing two missions in a single week is not losing successes if you assume that the missions selected won't give the full, or any, stealth successes. Which given the missions I listed is a good assumption. Should you judge a mission solely on the number of EPC successes that it will give you, then you are going to lose out on interesting, intriguing, and useful missions simply because of a refusal to do something that doesn't directly impact our cultivation.
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Ayashi said:
You are assuming every mission has at least 2 stealth rolls to get us to hit the 30 autos cap.
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There has never been a mission that gave stealth that didn't have 2 stealth rolls. Either a mission has stealth, and then we get at least 2+ rolls, or it doesn't and maybe Yrs is nice and give us some stealth elsewhere in the week.

Doing 2 missions in a single week when it's impossible to use that many points at once just means having a significant chance to lose out on successes for no reason. Staggering missions every weeks, instead, is maximising the chance of getting interesting things.


Last, doing a tutor for meridians is not the worst use of a tutor, by far. A simple example is using a tutor to do a physical cultivation action when we aren't even going for Bronze 2. Next is doing a tutor for spiritual cultivation if we don't want to get to Green 2 (and even then it's probably a waste as the extra successes would be of much higher import). Next worst is arguably EPC, as we will be getting EPC anyway, it won't save an action at all and the rest will be going to Qi. In fact, Meridian training with tutors probably fall into this, as the additional successes will be going to something useful. So extra is not a waste, and getting the extra meridian a turn earlier will allow us to use the arts we have a turn earlier, which would allow us to do things that might get us resources earlier. Attaching a skill to train with meridians is a bit trickier, but not impossible.
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You are right, doing a tutoring for, say, 2 hand Axe is not very useful. I am glad that you caught me and told me how there were worse use of a tutor than one that makes getting meridian harder and slower for us while also losing us the secondary benefits of a tutor.

This will teach me thinking that people are arguing in good faith.
 
Uh, now with the revelation of the last Argent Art being unlockable after all the other It makes me think of the Archer tutor and the thing he said about those who walk the path of the Sect Master can't afford to take something else.
While I think that the Inner Sect is full of scrub that can't match Ling's talent our meridians are getting difficult to open and (even if I was one of the most ardent defender of it on discord) we may have to give up on AE : the techs are useful only in limited circumstance and the passives are nice but not worth all the meridians already used (or will be use)
If AE 3 doesn't have a spike in strengh I think that I will probably vote to unequip it and use the Lung meridians for the Moon Rave Art for example
 
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Aze said:
Uh, now with the revelation of the last Argent Art being unlockable after all the other It makes me think of the Archer tutor and the thing he said about those who walk the path of the Sect Master can't afford to take something else.
While I think that the Inner Sect is full of scrub that can't match Ling's talent our meridians are getting difficult to open and (even if I was one of the most ardent defender of it on discord) we may have to give up on AE : the techs are useful only in limited circumstance and the passives are nice but not worth all the meridians already used (or will be use)
If AE 3 doesn't have a spike in strengh I think that I will probably vote to unequip it and use the Lung meridians for the Moon Rave Art for example
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There is a good argument for getting AE3 quickly yeah, as we need a minimum total of 4 lung for PLR and FSS, so nowing if we want to unequip AE early makes sense.

However, I do think that AE is probably going to become our most core art for the tournament.

@yrsillar, I wanted to ask, do we get another accessory talisman slot now that we are green/bronze, or is it either accessory or flying sword, or is it just flying sword?
 
Arkeus said:
However, I do think that AE is probably going to become our most core art for the tournament.
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Ew, no.

We have so many great, synergistic arts. Many of them are literal gifts from spirits as opposed to the metaphorical gift of Abyssal Exhalation. Why would we throw all of them away to make an art for which we don't have significant equipment bonuses or a full mastery bonus the centrepiece of our style?
 
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Seventeen said:
Ew, no.

We have so many great, synergistic arts. Many of them are literal gifts from spirits as opposed to the metaphorical gift of Abyssal Exhalation. Why would we throw all of them away to make an art for which we don't have significant equipment bonuses or a full mastery bonus the centrepiece of our style?
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Pretty much this.
Most of our arts synergize beautifully, AE is the one I think is pretty underwhelming so far.
 
Arkeus said:
There has never been a mission that gave stealth that didn't have 2 stealth rolls. Either a mission has stealth, and then we get at least 2+ rolls, or it doesn't and maybe Yrs is nice and give us some stealth elsewhere in the week.
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Last week the tower offered a single Stealth roll.
Besides, doing two missions open the possibility to neting a no-stealth mission and a stealth mission instead of being stuck with a single no-stealth mission for the week.
 
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At some point, we need to sit down and discuss what our Tournament Build will be, because between Argent Questionmark and us needing to figure out talismans, we really don't have room for every art that we have access to.
 
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