Considering the qi cost making some for own use is pretty great too
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Considering the qi cost making some for own use is pretty great too
Well considering FSA was gotten then instead, and we know FSA has an upgraded form, what if RLA had an upgraded form? We could master it relatively quickly I'd assume, since its lower level to start with, and then pick up an upgrade to make it better. I'm not saying thats the best choice, grabbing something better immediately would probably be the optimal choice, but it is a possibility.
Also, what is on the higher floors of the library? I don't remember that being mentioned anywhere but it could easily have been in a non-bookmarked post and I skipped all of those when archive binging.
Edit: on a similar note for stuff I missed, is there a list of arts we had the option of grabbing but didn't pick somewhere?
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Second floor has arts beginning at late red/early yellow, and has some successor arts of first floor archive like FZ. Third floor has arts beginning at mid yellow/late yellow, with some rare early green, and has successor arts from 1st and 2nd floor archive.
If we were looking for going on a successor chain, getting a second floor archive art then getting the third floor archive art would be better. It would give a stronger 'base' than first floor archive then third floor. FSA is significantly weaker than FZ, and a second floor archive art that has successor in third floor archive should, at yellow cap, be more akin to FZ than FSA.
OTOH, FZ needs 385 successes, while FSA 255... but if it was that we were worried about, getting a third floor archive art directly also works.
@yrsillar, mind adding the missing ones to the art informational threadmark?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Third floor has higher level arts that start later, some of which are green. That's more or less it from what I recall.
RLA likely has a upgraded form. Time wise we do not have time to get RLA and then train it before breakthrough, even though we could easily go back and grab it(if we have the sect points, which I don't know). After breakthrough, assuming it is on week 37 and 38 and that we go for spiritual first, we will have 14 weeks to "purchase" and train up both RLA and RLA's successor on top of FVM, SCS, TRF, and any of our other arts to Early Green Level. Mostly FVM, SCS since I can't remember off hand what else is explicitly capped by green.
FSA took 215(15+20+30+50+100) successes, reduced by ten successes needed for every level after the first by a wind related cultivation bonus we get. And RLA would presumably take 15+30+40+60+110 = 255 -25(due to the support bonus we have which I forgot) = 230 successes because it is water/lake and does not have that bonus. We don't know how many successes a successor art of RLA would take but as many as RLA is the bare reasonable minimum. We generally throw 80ish dice for spiritual training from what I remember and out of those get about 44 to 45 successes and suffer diminishing returns if we try to double up on an action in a week. Let's assume for the sake of argument that RLA's successor takes 40% more successes(I don't have reliable information on hand as to how the success limits of successor arts are laid out so I'm making what I think is a reasonable guess between 33% and 50%) than RLA did for 320ish successes. Combined that is 550 successes. Divide that by 45 and we get ~12.26 weeks.
This is discounting the fact that the RLA successor possibly has levels in Green Appraisal depending on where it starts which we are very unlikely to get into before the tournament with everything we have to do. This does mean that we may be able to shave off around one hundred successes or a bit more if we can't master the last levels of RLA's successor due to cultivation level and such. For example just grab the RLA successor, train it up to the limit of Early Green and then have the tournament. Kind of a toss up.
Like Arkeus said, if we want we can just skip all the stuff and go to the third floor RLA successor art. We'll suffer a bit of a training malus due to it being complex to learn without the predecessor arts, but that malus has not been described as onerous enough to outweigh the time spent on training RLA and then the successor. We also as said don't have as firm a base, which my first though makes me think our passives are likely to not be as good as they could be or something similar.
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AM, and presumably the other argent arts, are capped by early green too for the fifth level. AM I'd think we definitely want to finish off, the other two we have are less important but it would still be nice. EPC, SCS, FVM, and AM are the most important four once we hit green, I think, in roughly that order (EPC first because better cultivation will make everything else faster, of course). We also need two meridians to master them, one more leg for SCS and one more head for AM. Would be nice to know how many dice it would take for the next levels too, but I don't see any easy pattern in the dice increases for each new level.
Yeah, I was trying to get an idea on die numbers, but there's no easy pattern to increases that I can see. The only successor art example we have is 55 for ZB, 255 for FZ. That's around a 4.5x increase in dice, but since ZB is such an early art its hard to say how well that could be applied to something like FSA/successor or RLA/successor.
Can we learn a successor art without learning the earlier art? Like learning FZ without ever having learned ZB. I would think the knowledge from the earlier art would be necessary to learn the later one, or there would be some kind of heavy malus to learning the first level of a successor art without having learned the earlier one. Depending on how bad that is it might not be worth it to skip the predecessor. If it is possible, and doesn't give too bad of a malus, than finding an RLA successor and going straight to learning that might be the best idea since it'd give a good place to look. Not sure if there's background rolls for us finding stuff in the library but I'd assume "successor art to RLA" is easier to find than "something to buff our songs" if there is.
Edit: looking over the number of successes for each level of an art, it looks (extremely roughly) like if the next level of an art requires the same level of cultivation, its something like 15%-25% more successes for the next level. If its the next level up of cultivation, its somewhere around 80%-100% more successes required. Its hard to tell though because we don't know what level of cultivation most levels of the various arts we know require, we're only told the cultivation level needed if we get blocked off by it. That would mean we could be looking at 250-300 successes for each of the early green arts we want to cap off.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There would be a training malus, from what I understand a hindering but not exorbitantly heavy one, if we wanted to learn an art that was like fire element and from the third floor. However, yrsillar has said directly in either the discord or thread that we are good enough in water and wind that we won't have a malus to training arts from that area. Thus we could grab the RLA successor, or something similar which fits better, and train it with no malus. There are no background rolls as far as I know, and any arts we find we can always come back and grab if we can get the sect points to pay our way in.
Yeah, I did see that, but that's learning a water or wind art from the third floor. I'm wondering if there's a different malus for trying to learn an art that has a predecessor without already knowing the previous art, since its presumably building on the understanding of the earlier art.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
We aren't going to get penalties if the art is wind/water or some such, as we are good enough at those elements to learn a third archive art from the get go.
Moreover, a first archive art is low enough in quality that at late yellow (the cap of it) it would probably be weaker than a 3rd floor archive art that is also at late yellow (level 3?). This would be different if we take a second floor archive art, obviously. Arguably a capped second floor art to yellow would be roughly as good as a capped to yellow third floor art if the latter begins at mid yellow, and maybe better if it begins at late.
We can't train successor art normally without having trained the predecessor one. There might be exceptions, but we don't know them.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So the idea was that we grab a third floor buff art that is stand alone?
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Yeah, a third floor buff spiritual art that begins as a third floor spiritual buff art. The advantage would be that it would be a rather more esoteric art that we could get if we had gotten one as a successor, but the disadvantage is that esoteric art usually begin a bit awkward.
OTOH, that might be a moon thing where she gives us art with freaking 8 levels that are extremely broad and need 3+ levels to really get going.
@yrsillar, we didn't get any sect point from exploration with GF group last week?
See FVM and AE both really.
- Location
- Staring into the void
That being true; we're still at an advantage if training those arts up, as we can train them faster the higher our cultivation level is.
So, because I hate myself and probably all of you too, I have three Art ideas/targets floating around in my head at the moment. I won't rank them because that adds an unproductive layer of fuss to the whole thing:
-A stealth music Art. Group optional but preferred. Qi/cultivation veiling passive strongly preferred.
The thematics of an Art using Expression to evade notice really appeals to me, and it combines two aspects of Ling Qi's life on the streets in a fun way. Stealth was her lifeline; running and hiding was how she survived and kept herself safe. Playing the flute was the entertainment she could allow herself when she was safe. Not the thrill of the heist, but the passive enjoyment of security. This Art would invert those themes, creating safety, obscurity, from music, even more than FVM. On an emotional level, I think Ling Qi is well equipped to explore the themes of whatever the exact tone of the piece ends up being, and it's fairly likely to still be a bit brighter of a piece than FVM. One of my major concerns with music Arts in general is ending up with something that is emotionally quite negative or that isn't relatable to Ling Qi's experience or character.
-A Wind/Head perception Art based around sound/hearing. Long range focus preferred.
This could probably be a Music Art as well, but it's on the more esoteric side and based on Zeqing's comments, I'm not sure Early Green is advanced enough to swing the concept well enough. The basic concept isn't too complicated; hear things at long distance through the medium/via the connection of the air/Wind. Both sound and wind-borne connections fit the thematic direction Ling Qi's character is taking, and I like the idea of a perception Art that doesn't focus on sight primarily. Sound works around obstacles at our level of cultivation anyway. Longer range perception happens to help our archery out, but my primary motivation is to improve spying and subterfuge efforts while making it a lot less likely we get snuck up on while we're sneaking. Water would be a good elemental pair for Wind if we wanted the Art to focus a bit on piercing wards: Wind and Water are a persistent pair.
-A spiritual attack amplifying Art. Basically what it says on the tin, and nothing new to the conversation. My preference is to avoid Arm meridians if possible, but they might be the source of the most reliably potent passives for the Art; counterpoint is it's more likely to require active-use instead of fire-and-forget buff effects; counter-counterpoint is it's possibly more likely to have single-round buffing instants which, while a qi-intensive strategy, save actions. This Art could also be a Music Art if it wanted to be, and either of the above Arts could aid spiritual offence with the right theming.
-A stealth music Art. Group optional but preferred. Qi/cultivation veiling passive strongly preferred.
The thematics of an Art using Expression to evade notice really appeals to me, and it combines two aspects of Ling Qi's life on the streets in a fun way. Stealth was her lifeline; running and hiding was how she survived and kept herself safe. Playing the flute was the entertainment she could allow herself when she was safe. Not the thrill of the heist, but the passive enjoyment of security. This Art would invert those themes, creating safety, obscurity, from music, even more than FVM. On an emotional level, I think Ling Qi is well equipped to explore the themes of whatever the exact tone of the piece ends up being, and it's fairly likely to still be a bit brighter of a piece than FVM. One of my major concerns with music Arts in general is ending up with something that is emotionally quite negative or that isn't relatable to Ling Qi's experience or character.
-A Wind/Head perception Art based around sound/hearing. Long range focus preferred.
This could probably be a Music Art as well, but it's on the more esoteric side and based on Zeqing's comments, I'm not sure Early Green is advanced enough to swing the concept well enough. The basic concept isn't too complicated; hear things at long distance through the medium/via the connection of the air/Wind. Both sound and wind-borne connections fit the thematic direction Ling Qi's character is taking, and I like the idea of a perception Art that doesn't focus on sight primarily. Sound works around obstacles at our level of cultivation anyway. Longer range perception happens to help our archery out, but my primary motivation is to improve spying and subterfuge efforts while making it a lot less likely we get snuck up on while we're sneaking. Water would be a good elemental pair for Wind if we wanted the Art to focus a bit on piercing wards: Wind and Water are a persistent pair.
-A spiritual attack amplifying Art. Basically what it says on the tin, and nothing new to the conversation. My preference is to avoid Arm meridians if possible, but they might be the source of the most reliably potent passives for the Art; counterpoint is it's more likely to require active-use instead of fire-and-forget buff effects; counter-counterpoint is it's possibly more likely to have single-round buffing instants which, while a qi-intensive strategy, save actions. This Art could also be a Music Art if it wanted to be, and either of the above Arts could aid spiritual offence with the right theming.
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Why before breakthrough?
Ling Qi will be better at everything, especially cultivating arts, after breakthrough.
Basically yeah. There's a case for getting all the Argents for breakthrough bonuses. Theres a much weaker case for mastering all the Argents to cap for breakthrough bonuses.
Other than that we aren't really going to be seeing much of a qualitative difference.
Speaking as someone who'd really like to see a Larceny art.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
A stealth art that would be interesting is an art that reduces perception of people in an area. We could use that for sneaking and so that we could trap people in FVM easier.
Honestly I don't want just a stealth art I would like something that would also help us build up a field of death.
Honestly I don't want just a stealth art I would like something that would also help us build up a field of death.
- Location
- Malaysia
Seems to me that those are the people who want to go all in on the social actions, even if it means sacrificing major actions on them.
- Location
- scrabbling
I want music to be part of her pre-Green foundation, basically, and amn't convinced that a single art is enough for the more mechanical parts of that determination.
FVM's diapason inflicts a 3 die penalty on perception, in addition to low-light penalties from the mist itself, and we get +2 stealth. The issue with debuffing enemy perception instead of buffing allied sneak though is broadly you're going to have to win a clash for that.
Generally speaking we want our buff arts to be clashless. We have enough debuff arts that need clashes or opposing tests. That means one focused on allies like ZB was and FZ is, and avoiding arts with enemies in the description.
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
I don't care about having our sp.atk buff be music/not, or group/self-only. (well I do have preferences, but not strong ones)
What I do care about is making sure our request contains what we actually want from such an art. Even if it means putting it in footnotes.
Specifically, something like this:
[] Look in Floor N for an Art that "increases the effectiveness of spiritual attacks"*
- [] Dissonance too, but mainly Elegy, Breath, Diapason etc.
- [] And it should make our debuffs harder to dispel, and force a clash for auto-dispels**
- [] Bonus points if it comes with a Tranquil Rebuke-like punishment for a failed attempt
That way when we get our selection of 3-4 arts, we can choose more-or-less based on thematic and aesthetic aspects rather than arguing if this or that art might lack something we really want mechanically.
* maybe specify element like "at least one of Darkness/Wind"
** doable with something like "all techs treated as 1 dot higher for the purpose of dispel clashes"
What I do care about is making sure our request contains what we actually want from such an art. Even if it means putting it in footnotes.
Specifically, something like this:
[] Look in Floor N for an Art that "increases the effectiveness of spiritual attacks"*
- [] Dissonance too, but mainly Elegy, Breath, Diapason etc.
- [] And it should make our debuffs harder to dispel, and force a clash for auto-dispels**
- [] Bonus points if it comes with a Tranquil Rebuke-like punishment for a failed attempt
Mainly Diapason and Elegy, but also stacking debuffs.
Diapason especially is really powerful, but we're only ever likely to cast it once in combat, and so far enemies have had a far too easy time of removing its effect (or resisting it entirely).
Diapason especially is really powerful, but we're only ever likely to cast it once in combat, and so far enemies have had a far too easy time of removing its effect (or resisting it entirely).
That way when we get our selection of 3-4 arts, we can choose more-or-less based on thematic and aesthetic aspects rather than arguing if this or that art might lack something we really want mechanically.
* maybe specify element like "at least one of Darkness/Wind"
** doable with something like "all techs treated as 1 dot higher for the purpose of dispel clashes"
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I wonder if there is a spiritual art that would boost spiritual attack while increasing debuffs raw numbers like AC does with multi attacker.
- Location
- Cyberspace
I concur.
Now, the argument of "Ling Qi should grab a good music art and cultivate the first level to try and improve 'music' cultivation bonuses in Green" isn't a bad one... but I feel that one level of an archive art (nowhere close to mastered) isn't going to make a difference if the levels of FVM and the capped Expression + woodwind specialty + extra lessons and refinement don't. It would've been an argument for a few weeks back - when there would've been time to complete an art that only has three levels, master a simpler art or at least make some solid progress.
The remaining "delay for more arts" arguments that I think are worth considering are (a) "Ling Qi finds the fourth Argent Art; she should quickly cultivate this first in case there's Argent breakthrough bonuses", (b) "The puzzle box contains a quality (perhaps musical) art that fits Ling Qi's style, Ling Qi should cultivate the first level as long-hanging fruit" or (c) a not-quite-sufficient-on-its-own "One more week of cultivation and bonus successes will advance one of her existing arts".
(a) is worth considering because while the chance is too low to delay while searching for the art, having some extra successes when cultivating Argent Arts would impact Argent Genesis, the fifth level of Argent Mirror, the fourth and fifth levels of Argent Current and Argent Storm, and there's a reasonable chance that there's one or two successors to those she find very appealing (a musical, archery or stealth one, for example). So if it becomes immediately available (say, not!Kabuto wants to stack up more favors, Renxiang remembers Ling Qi mentioning it and thinks it'd be a good last-minute gift, looting of Liling's base digs up some jade slips, etc), it's worth nabbing (besides, getting a bit more Heaven and Earth might be helpful for FSA and AE respectively).
(b) is worth considering because so far arts coming from actions relating to the Moon seem to be fairly potent - so just as weak arts will have little impact on any breakthrough bonuses, strong arts might have a larger impact; and one that fits her style is worth introducing. And yes, if it's musical then having a bit more reinforcement there is appealing. It's just that the somewhat potluck of archive arts has too much uncertainty about the quality and nature of what is found.
(c) is worth considering because it's relatively low-hanging fruit; all of Ling Qi's current arts are fairly strong ones, and pushing an art from "only a couple levels" to "over half-way mastered" could be important.
In all three cases though, I see it as mostly pushing towards some cultivation actions in the first week of a two-week breakthrough (or maybe taking three weeks to break through) than "wait another week to start breaking through". I feel like the only thing that'd lead to me not advocating breakthrough actions in week 37 are either strategic choice between the "must ignore all else, closed door!" crowd and a plan that has no breakthrough attempts at all, a fire that Ling Qi needs to put out* or an opportunity that needs to be jumped on immediately (a trial site discovered, say**).
* Or, while not a fire - if Sun Liling makes a grand entrance with another attack this week, then there might be some opportunities for serious loot in raiding a base in the aftermath; that or other high-value opportunities could also induce a delay, I suppose...
** If Ling Qi finds a site (or one of her allies does and is looking for someone to take it with them), then that's a vehement "do this now, break through next week instead". For one thing, trials might have cultivation caps. For another, any week could be when someone else finds the trial - or the ally looking for a partner might look elsewhere for help.
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You've mentione this before, an I wonder exactly what you mean. Even with the most mathematically optimized breakthrough plan, we only have ~5% chance of completing breakthrough in one week. There's a good chance we'll need three no matter what.