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Blood, Sweat, and Tears (WH40k Design Bureau)

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DaLintyGuy said:
[The Shrine World of Lativa wishes to acquire a large number of Shelter armor systems, costing 22M, in order to form an auxiliary corps for the Sisters of Battle.]
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I don't really see any reason not to do this, it will strengthen our ally after all.

So does anyone have any design ideas that could remove the artisan cost from the Mrk2 macrocannons?
 
@DaLintyGuy On the Indignant model torpedoes, have the point defense guns on them shown to actually have much of a positive effect?

Some things I want some feedback on:
1. For a subsidiary shipyard design, how much manufacturing should we try to build into it? I'm thinking enough to build the hulls and essential components.
2. For the torpedoes, should we double down on the penetrating armor with a jet, or should we refocus on just having a big explosion.
3. We could probably design a plasma torpedo that would be very strong, but it would also cost Artisan points to build

My current plan idea:
[] Plan Shipyard and better weapons
-[] Remove Artisan cost from Macrocannons Mk2 - Specialized manufacturing facilities can enable us to produce our newer macrocannon designs without needing major oversight from the Mechanicus adepts, freeing them to work on other projects
-[] Explosive shells for macrocannons - Given that a large portion of the ships we face lack strong armor, explosive shells for our Mk2 macrocannons will enable us to put traitors and xenos down that much faster.
-[] Subsidiary Shipyard design - Now that the shipyard overhaul is complete, it is time to consider expanding shipbuilding efforts to other systems. The Subsidiary Shipyard is a self-contained shipyard with a pair of drydocks for escort class vessels, and enough resource processing and manufacturing built-in to construct the hulls and essential components on site.
-[] Better Torpedoes - The Indignant model torpedo has served us well, but in the face of greater threats it is time to create something better. Removing the built-in point defense, and using the sensors to instead help guide the torpedoes into enemy ships, increasing the chance of hitting. Additional armor on the warheads is combined with more powerful explosives for an even stronger jet against enemy armor.
 
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Captainwolf said:
-[] Explosive shells for macrocannons - Given that a large portion of the ships we face lack strong armor, explosive shells for our Mk2 macrocannons will enable us to put traitors and xenos down that much faster.
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We actually already have a design plan that was written up in the past for something like this:

(Macrocannon Add-on) Foreshock Shells: There is a universal principle for defeating armor; transferring lethal force through it is easier than piercing it, whether the subject is the Feudal World plate donned by the Ashen Legion or the hull cladding of battle tanks. The Foreshock Shells endeavor to exploit this principle. Instead of a solid shell, the munition fired takes the form of a thin, soft metal container of high explosives activated by a delayed impact fuse, encompassed within an armored fairing that will allow the payload to be fired by the electromagnetic coils and shield it throughout its trajectory. A proximity fuse will cause the fairing to be discarded with explosive bolts, creating a cloud of man-sized flechettes as the payload impacts. Upon impact, the explosives will squash into a (relatively) thin disk on the hull's surface before detonating, creating a staggeringly powerful shockwave that will destructively stress the ship's superstructure. It is also theorized that the shell's overall weight will be less than that of solid shot, and thus will be propelled to a greater range.
 
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Captainwolf said:
@DaLintyGuy On the Indignant model torpedoes, have the point defense guns on them shown to actually have much of a positive effect?
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Simply shooting back can often have an outsized effect on interceptor efficacy, yes, although you can instead simply armor the shell more instead of mounting guns.
EternalStruggle said:
This sounds not entirely legal...

But I mean half the other shit we're doing isn't either.

Unless the auxiliary corps is also fully female?
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Of course. Probably. I mean it's not your army and the Ecclesiarchy has a history of using volunteers during issues related to their interests such as, say, Crusades, so the legalism is there whichever way they take it.





Oh, and you also have examples of compressed matter explosives even if it is xenotech like the plasma lance idea, Travels. And you would need to make it workable.
 
So one thing we could do is make a new Live Support system that is geared in direction of DC to make our ships tougher.
 
Here's my plan:

[] Plan Life Support, Shipyard, and Weapons
-[] Remove Artisan cost from Macrocannons Mk2 - Specialized manufacturing facilities can enable us to produce our newer macrocannon designs without needing major oversight from the Mechanicus adepts, freeing them to work on other projects
-[] Subsidiary Shipyard design - Now that the shipyard overhaul is complete, it is time to consider expanding shipbuilding efforts to other systems. The Subsidiary Shipyard is a self-contained shipyard with a pair of drydocks for escort class vessels, and enough resource processing and manufacturing built-in to enable constructing at least part of the components and assemble escort class vessels.
-[] Protector Life Support Systems: An improved life support system, seeking to increase general capacity while adding in significant redundancies to support damage control abilities of ships.
-[] Better Torpedoes - The Indignant model torpedo has served us well, but in the face of greater threats it is time to create something better. Removing the built-in point defense, and using the sensors to instead help guide the torpedoes into enemy ships, increasing the chance of hitting. Additional armor on the warheads is combined with more powerful explosives for an even stronger jet against enemy armor.
 
We have a large collection of salvaged weapons that can be used in new ships so we can use those and focus on non weapon tech this turn and use the salvage on the newly build ships:

2x Looted Lances (Battery 3, Medium Range. 3M)
Plasma Broadside (Cruiser, Broadside, Damage 5, Short Range)(8M,5A)

Cruiser Turrets->Bombardment Cannons: Fires slow but heavy ordnance that is best suited to breaking fortifications or erasing ground features under the weight of atomic fire. Or worse. (Lance 4 with domestic ordnance, Lance 5 using the small stock of recovered melta ammunition. Very Short Range. 3M,1A.) One Cruiser or three Escort modules.
3x Escort Turrets->Macrocannon Turrets: Standard weapons of the Imperial Navy, though a bit worse for wear after being shot out of their ships. (Battery 3, Medium Range. 4M,1A)
1x Escort Turret->Sniper Cannon: A long range, anti-armor variant of a Macrocannon. It can pull it off with the Adamantium spikes it is supposed to shoot, though Calavan munitions won't achieve anything close. (Lance 2, Medium Range, -3 Armor when using Adamantium shells, -1 otherwise. 3M,2A)
1x Escort Turret->Lance Mount: An only slightly damaged Firestorm Lance. (Lance 3, Long Range)(5M,2A)
1x Escort Turret->Plasma Turret: Powerful, long ranged, but power hungry and temperamental even before it was set adrift. (Battery 4, Medium Range, Aggressive Spirit. 5M,4A)

And an engine better then the ones we are usign now:
1x Looted Engines (Accel 3, Maneuver 2. 4M)

For now i am thinking about
Subsidiary Shipyard design
Better Torpedoes
improved engines(reverse engineer the salvaged ones?) The faster ship decided if there will be a fight or not lets make sure those are our ships.
improved Savior- we can add these to our existing carriers without needing to do a refit and use the existing craft as a reserve/protection for planets/aboard cargo ships.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
We actually already have a design plan that was written up in the past for something like this:

(Macrocannon Add-on) Foreshock Shells: There is a universal principle for defeating armor; transferring lethal force through it is easier than piercing it, whether the subject is the Feudal World plate donned by the Ashen Legion or the hull cladding of battle tanks. The Foreshock Shells endeavor to exploit this principle. Instead of a solid shell, the munition fired takes the form of a thin, soft metal container of high explosives activated by a delayed impact fuse, encompassed within an armored fairing that will allow the payload to be fired by the electromagnetic coils and shield it throughout its trajectory. A proximity fuse will cause the fairing to be discarded with explosive bolts, creating a cloud of man-sized flechettes as the payload impacts. Upon impact, the explosives will squash into a (relatively) thin disk on the hull's surface before detonating, creating a staggeringly powerful shockwave that will destructively stress the ship's superstructure. It is also theorized that the shell's overall weight will be less than that of solid shot, and thus will be propelled to a greater range.
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The thing is, HESH warheads (Which this shell is) are much less effective against composite armor, or against armor with spall liners. Additionally, internal bulkheads and armoring will have a much greater effect against the spalling created, much like how spaced armor makes spalling less effective. There is a reason why HESH is used much less than Sabot or HEAT warheads in modern times.

DaLintyGuy said:
My apologies, I was referring to the creation of highly expensive but highly effective compressed matter explosives, not to naval grade HESH/squash heads.
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So wait, if I put in "use compressed explosives" the resulting shell will be more powerful but more expensive? How much more expensive would a compressed explosive warhead be vs a normal explosive warhead
 
sunrise said:
Fully female forces are already dodging the rules as they were created after a law forbidding the church from "men under arms" and they read it as only banning male soldiers.
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There's a difference between skirting the law and outright plowing through it at full tilt.
DaLintyGuy said:
Of course. Probably. I mean it's not your army and the Ecclesiarchy has a history of using volunteers during issues related to their interests such as, say, Crusades, so the legalism is there whichever way they take it.
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The Frateris Militia work because they have no official connection to the Ecclesiarchy or Sisters.

Then again, this is their problem not ours. Plus, Imperial laws are more "strong suggestions" in the halls of power unless you have, like, an actual army attached to the Church or Space Marines or whoever that isn't supposed to have one.
 
Captainwolf said:
So wait, if I put in "use compressed explosives" the resulting shell will be more powerful but more expensive? How much more expensive would a compressed explosive warhead be vs a normal explosive warhead
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It is a new technology so it would be more difficult to design to begin with (given the rewards, probably a -4 penalty) but I would estimate five or so times more powerful. Firing metallic hydrogen is effective.

For reference, these would likely be seen in a near optimal form on Titans as "conventional" warheads to act as thermobaric munitions against armor and infantry if the atomics are not desired for whatever reason.

As for expense... At least 5A for the versions you could make.
 
DaLintyGuy said:
It is a new technology so it would be more difficult to design to begin with (given the rewards, probably a -4 penalty) but I would estimate five or so times more powerful. Firing metallic hydrogen is effective.

For reference, these would likely be seen in a near optimal form on Titans as "conventional" warheads to act as thermobaric munitions against armor and infantry if the atomics are not desired for whatever reason.

As for expense... At least 5A for the versions you could make.
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Alright, no way we can make use of those in our fleet right now. Maybe if we can figure out how the Locroft are able to make those warheads it would become more feasible

Revision to note that the explosive shells should be able to penetrate light-medium armor before detonating

[] Plan Shipyard and better weapons
-[] Remove Artisan cost from Macrocannons Mk2 - Specialized manufacturing facilities can enable us to produce our newer macrocannon designs without needing major oversight from the Mechanicus adepts, freeing them to work on other projects
-[] explosive shells for macrocannons - As our enemies grow ever stronger, it is past time to develop armor-piercing Explosive Shells for our Mk2 Macocannons. These shells should be able to reliably penetrate medium armor before detonating, using an Armor-Piercing Capped shell design to ensure our shells do not shatter against enemy armor.
-[] Subsidiary Shipyard design - Now that the shipyard overhaul is complete, it is time to consider expanding shipbuilding efforts to other systems. The Subsidiary Shipyard is a self-contained shipyard with a pair of drydocks for escort class vessels, and enough resource processing and manufacturing built-in to construct the hulls and essential components on site.
-[] Better Torpedoes - The Indignant model torpedo has served us well, but in the face of greater threats it is time to create something stronger. Removing the built-in point defense, and using the sensors to instead help guide the torpedoes into enemy ships, increasing the chance of hitting. Additional armor on the torpedoes is combined with more powerful explosives for an even stronger jet against enemy armor.
 
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Captainwolf said:
explosive shells for macrocannons - As our enemies grow ever stronger, it is past time to develop armor-piercing Explosive Shells for our Mk2 Macocannons. These shells should be able to reliably penetrate at least 2 pts of armor before detonating, using an Armor-Piercing Capped shell design to ensure our shells do not shatter against enemy armor.
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I'd rule these as more like Damage 3 than reducing enemy armor. As all they are are shells without anything special, such as Adamantium tuned for the job or a sheath of plasma to help push aside material.
 
DaLintyGuy said:
I'd rule these as more like Damage 3 than reducing enemy armor. As all they are are shells without anything special, such as Adamantium tuned for the job or a sheath of plasma to help push aside material.
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Yeah, I put that in to indicate that they should be penetrating before exploding, rather than being pure HE shells that detonate on the outside of the armor.
 
Captainwolf said:
Yeah, I put that in to indicate that they should be penetrating before exploding, rather than being pure HE shells that detonate on the outside of the armor.
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
We actually already have a design plan that was written up in the past for something like this:

(Macrocannon Add-on) Foreshock Shells: There is a universal principle for defeating armor; transferring lethal force through it is easier than piercing it, whether the subject is the Feudal World plate donned by the Ashen Legion or the hull cladding of battle tanks. The Foreshock Shells endeavor to exploit this principle. Instead of a solid shell, the munition fired takes the form of a thin, soft metal container of high explosives activated by a delayed impact fuse, encompassed within an armored fairing that will allow the payload to be fired by the electromagnetic coils and shield it throughout its trajectory. A proximity fuse will cause the fairing to be discarded with explosive bolts, creating a cloud of man-sized flechettes as the payload impacts. Upon impact, the explosives will squash into a (relatively) thin disk on the hull's surface before detonating, creating a staggeringly powerful shockwave that will destructively stress the ship's superstructure. It is also theorized that the shell's overall weight will be less than that of solid shot, and thus will be propelled to a greater range.
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Honestly, I prefer an evolution of our existent plasma shells, seeing as we should probably get a bonus from being familiar with the design, hence why I prefer this write-in:


(Ordnance) Refined Thermo-Cavitation Shells: There are literal decades of data to draw on when it comes to the performance of the now familiar plasma shells. Drawing on the experience of their manufacturing, the special ammunition has been at long last been determined to be held back by their inception design. This obviously cannot do. As such, steps have been taken to make the Thermo-Cavitation Shells live up to their Omnisiah-given potential. No longer are they going to be half-butchered plasma engines encased inside a shell, instead they are going to be equipped with a plasma reactor dedicated to economically use the space inside their shells AND explosively fail at their peak from the ground up. This comes with a rearrangement of the standard plasma engine sensors, so that the machine spirit inside of them can track and vent plasma so that the inner chamber can reach prime fusion at each individual Shell's peak


Plus, you know, get some use out of my plasma explosive bonus.
 
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mithril-blade said:
Honestly, I prefer an evolution of our existent plasma shells, seeing as we should probably get a bonus from being familiar with the design, hence why I prefer this write-in:


(Ordnance) Refined Thermo-Cavitation Shells: There are literal decades of data to draw on when it comes to the performance of the now familiar plasma shells. Drawing on the experience of their manufacturing, the special ammunition has been at long last been determined to be held back by their inception design. This obviously cannot do. As such, steps have been taken to make the Thermo-Cavitation Shells live up to their Omnisiah-given potential. No longer are they going to be half-butchered plasma engines encased inside a shell, instead they are going to be equipped with a plasma reactor dedicated to economically use the space inside their shells AND explosively fail at their peak from the ground up. This comes with a rearrangement of the standard plasma engine sensors, so that the machine spirit inside of them can track and vent plasma so that the inner chamber can reach prime fusion at each individual Shell's peak


Plus, you know, get some use out of my plasma explosive bonus.
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The problem is that plasma shells cost 1A to make, and a better plasma shell might cost even more Artisan

Maybe we should see if we can make the current Plasma shells not cost Artisan points, and adapt them to the macrocannons Mk2. That way we could issue them to our entire navy.
 
Captainwolf said:
The problem is that plasma shells cost 1A to make, and a better plasma shell might cost even more Artisan

Maybe we should see if we can make the current Plasma shells not cost Artisan points, and adapt them to the macrocannons Mk2. That way we could issue them to our entire navy.
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I don't know, it seems to me that the whole thing is dependant on roll of the dice.

To wit, I can't for the life of me imagine WHY it would cost more A for the refinements in the prospective new shells.
 
mithril-blade said:
Honestly, I prefer an evolution of our existent plasma shells, seeing as we should probably get a bonus from being familiar with the design, hence why I prefer this write-in:


(Ordnance) Refined Thermo-Cavitation Shells: There are literal decades of data to draw on when it comes to the performance of the now familiar plasma shells. Drawing on the experience of their manufacturing, the special ammunition has been at long last been determined to be held back by their inception design. This obviously cannot do. As such, steps have been taken to make the Thermo-Cavitation Shells live up to their Omnisiah-given potential. No longer are they going to be half-butchered plasma engines encased inside a shell, instead they are going to be equipped with a plasma reactor dedicated to economically use the space inside their shells AND explosively fail at their peak from the ground up. This comes with a rearrangement of the standard plasma engine sensors, so that the machine spirit inside of them can track and vent plasma so that the inner chamber can reach prime fusion at each individual Shell's peak


Plus, you know, get some use out of my plasma explosive bonus.
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I don't mind building on the thermo-cavitation shells, but I'd prefer something we can deploy more widely - I'd rather reduce the cost to 1M or .5M with no increase in performance than go for additional armor reduction. Something like:

[] Plasma Explosive Manufacturing Protocols: Thermo-cavitation shells have proven their value in Calavar's arsenal, but the high cost of manufacture prevents a widespread rollout. In order to make them more widely available, a standardized manufacturing process and associated specialized machinery will be created (possibly requiring some small tweaks to the design). In particular, automation of the most delicate parts of the reactor production should remove the need for direct mechanicus involvement in every shell.
 
mithril-blade said:
I don't know, it seems to me that the whole thing is dependant on roll of the dice.

To wit, I can't for the life of me imagine WHY it would cost more A for the refinements in the prospective new shells.
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The problem is that it costs Artisan at all, which we only have 10 per turn, compared to how we will have at least 420 Manufacturing this turn.
 
An alternative plan that goes for widespread plasma shells instead of explosive shells.

[] Plan Shipyard and Plasma shells
-[] Remove Artisan cost from Macrocannons Mk2 - Specialized manufacturing facilities can enable us to produce our newer macrocannon designs without needing major oversight from the Mechanicus adepts, freeing them to work on other projects
-[] Plasma Explosive Manufacturing Protocols: Thermo-cavitation shells have proven their value in Calavar's arsenal, but the high cost of manufacture prevents a widespread rollout. In order to make them more widely available, a standardized manufacturing process and associated specialized machinery will be created (possibly requiring some small tweaks to the design). In particular, automation of the most delicate parts of the reactor production should remove the need for direct Mechanicus involvement in every shell. In addition, the shells will be adapted for use in the Mk2 Macrocannons.
-[] Subsidiary Shipyard design - Now that the shipyard overhaul is complete, it is time to consider expanding shipbuilding efforts to other systems. The Subsidiary Shipyard is a self-contained shipyard with a pair of drydocks for escort class vessels, and enough resource processing and manufacturing built-in to construct the hulls and essential components on-site.
-[] Better Torpedoes - The Indignant model torpedo has served us well, but in the face of greater threats it is time to create something stronger. Removing the built-in point defense, and using the sensors to instead help guide the torpedoes into enemy ships, increasing the chance of hitting. Additional armor on the torpedoes is combined with more powerful explosives for an even stronger jet against enemy armor.
 
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