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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Snowfire said:
What about the cold-blooded murder of the entire Golden Company force that were holding the Sleepers? Who couldn't even fight back. What was the number there, five hundred? A thousand? More? They didn't need to die. We killed them all because it was convenient. Nothing more.
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They were being mean to the Little Valyrians.

So bascially puppy kickers.

I have no sympathy for them.
 
Snowfire said:
What about the cold-blooded murder of the entire Golden Company force that were holding the Sleepers? Who couldn't even fight back. What was the number there, five hundred? A thousand? More? They didn't need to die.
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According to D&D alignement RAW, that wasn't a moral issue at all.
Justification :
  • They were an army that served Evil. Slaughtering goblin hordes is fine in D&D, and so is this sort of situation.
  • They were slavers. In D&D, slavery is equal to rape, murder, torture, BDSM, poison use or drug use : ABSOLUTE EVIL.
  • They routinely committed evil acts, and thus mostly should have qualified as evil, or at least neutral (not good). This is very important here.
  • Killing traitors to the realm isn't a problem as long as the laws aren't evil (which they aren't). We were executing criminals, not murdering innocents.
 
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Goldfish said:
I like the Ice version, except for the At Will Holy Ice Javelin barrage. That's just too much, dude. 3/Day Holy Ice is quite nice, IMO, allowing Yrael to use the barrage or Wall of Ice as needed.
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I need to know, what is too much about it? Too much damage? To many dice? Too much stuffing?

I did the math for its damage and it is in the same place as his full attack, but much more accurate.

So whats too much about it I guess?

Snowfire said:
Because they didn't start there. We enabled them to change. And let's be honest, our Erinyes and Azema shouldn't have Alignment subtypes anymore given how we snapped their metaphysical connections to Hell and the Abyss, respectively.
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They did? Azema is a full mortal now, and the erinyes are native outsiders. They're just ya know, evil because thats how they understand and parse the world.


Snowfire said:
Rehabilitation of criminals and therapy for those mentally affected by exposure to things like the Deep Ones, I think. Their abilities are perfect for it.
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And their temperament. Its literally what they exist to do.
 
Snowfire said:
What about the cold-blooded murder of the entire Golden Company force that were holding the Sleepers? Who couldn't even fight back. What was the number there, five hundred? A thousand? More? They didn't need to die.
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Same as the entire army of Lys. They all died to prove a point. After we murdered the better half of Lys ruling class for convenience. But hey, we made a nice even 1,000 Darkenbeasts for our army from the corpses of all those people!

Just to better slaughter our enemies free the oppressed masses and bring them into the warm embrace of Emperor Viserys, who will watch and guard them with his secret police and the closest thing to the NSA that money can buy! :V
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
According to D&D alignement RAW, that wasn't a moral issue at all.
Justification :
  • They were an army that served Evil. Slaughtering goblin hordes is fine in D&D, and so is this sort of situation.
  • They were slavers
  • They routinely committed evil acts, and thus mostly should have qualified as evil, or at least neutral (not good). This is very important here.
  • Killing traitors to the realm isn't a problem as long as the laws aren't evil (which they aren't). We were executing criminals, not murdering innocents.
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Ahahahaa. Ok, no.
  • Slaughtering goblin hordes that might one day threaten others is fine. Anything more is memey craptastic flanderization of the alignment.
  • All of them? Really?
  • :Citation Needed:
  • Which makes the act Lawful. It sure as hell doesn't make it Good.
 
Azel said:
Same as the entire army of Lys. They all died to prove a point. After we murdered the better half of Lys ruling class for convenience. But hey, we made a nice even 1,000 Darkenbeasts for our army from the corpses of all those people!

Just to better slaughter our enemies free the oppressed masses and bring them into the warm embrace of Emperor Viserys, who will watch and guard them with his secret police and the closest thing to the NSA that money can buy! :V
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Dont forget leading an enemy army to get massacred against our own army!

With healthy casualties on both sides!
 
zxzx24 said:
Dont forget leading an enemy army to get massacred against our own army!

With healthy casualties on both sides!
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That's the one I'm talking about.

Oh! Oh! We used copious amount of blackmail, coercion and assassination to clean up Myr's ruling class so that a cabal of wealthy oligarchs could seize absolute power and swear fealty to us!

I'm bursting with Paragon juice here! :V
 
Guys assignment discussions are not the most productive things in the world because the entire concept of an alignment system is reductionist in the extreme. Also precedent shows things can get heated when talking about that so maybe it would be best to let the matter of Viserys' alignment drop.
 
So, with expectations set by long experience and multiple previous alignment debates, I don't foresee anything good coming from yet another one.

With that in mind, can y'all please refrain from delving any further into the Abyss than you already have this afternoon? It's just going to become an argument rather than a debate and y'all know it.
 
Snowfire said:
Rehabilitation of criminals and therapy for those mentally affected by exposure to things like the Deep Ones, I think. Their abilities are perfect for it.
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All right then.
Kinda weird that we forgot about them, but I wasn't keeping up with the "prison system reform"-discussion, so whatever.

As a side note...
Snowfire said:
What about the cold-blooded murder of the entire Golden Company force that were holding the Sleepers in Essaria? What was the number there, five hundred? A thousand? More?
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Could someone remind me, maybe @Duesal, what did we do with all the bodies there?

I think we can re-use them even now still, even if all that's left is bones.
And that can be a neat little segway into deciding if we want to do anything with Sleepers. :V

I think at this point we can assure their cooperation.
We are far stronger a realm than we were at the moment we learned of them.

And they are PCs. With unique knowledge and skills, and lore...
 
DragonParadox said:
Guys assignment discussions are not the most productive things in the world because the entire concept of an alignment system is reductionist in the extreme. Also precedent shows things can get heated when talking about that so maybe it would be best to let the matter of Viserys' alignment drop.
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Fair enough, but you know that the hypocrisy is rankling me.

It's almost as if charismatic strongmen who promise everything being awesome if they are just handed absolute power are not all that great people in the end...
 
You are falling for Azel's usual "depict everything as super Evil to make the thread vote for more evil next time" trick.

Snowfire said:
Ahahahaa. Ok, no.
  • Slaughtering goblin hordes that might one day threaten others is fine. Anything more is memey craptastic flanderization of the alignment.
  • All of them? Really?
  • :Citation Needed:
  • Which makes the act Lawful. It sure as hell doesn't make it Good.
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Snowfire, I'm sorry but I fear you need to reread the BOED. D&D alignements really are that stupid and flanderised, rules-as-written.

  • The Golden Company absolutely would "one day threaten others". We are explicitly at war with them and have been for generations, and they served Tiamat.
  • Yes, all of them were slavers. The army as a whole was rounding up the Essarians to sell them. And D&D does allow the "just war" reasoning - no need to check the alignment of each soldier individually if the army they are a part of is doing Evil. Conscripts make the issue weirder, but thankfully aren't relevant here.
  • Mercenary company, remember? Canon explicitly says that mercenaries routinely rape and pillage innocent populations. They also practised slavery, and regularly fought unjust wars (evil in D&D's stupid morality system). Still, the previous bullet point is sufficient to justify their massacre.

My point is that under D&D's stupid morality system which I hate IRL, Viserys is easily neutral and not evil. You also underestimate just how much Good we get simply from setting our kingdom and tearing down the obviously Evil ones which existed previously.
 
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...Am I alone who would jsut prefer Viserys to stay Neutral, and thinks all the debate on Morals here kinda off-point?
Like, we do Evil things.
We do Good things.
But most of all, we do all these to instill order and law, to give people security, and to carve our a worthy realm.
Good/Evil seems kinda balanced in our doings to me :/

I honestly see the Lawful aspect first, and Neutral second :/
 
egoo said:
Could someone remind me, maybe @Duesal, what did we do with all the bodies there?

I think we can re-use them even now still, even if all that's left is bones.
And that can be a neat little segway into deciding if we want to do anything with Sleepers. :V

I think at this point we can assure their cooperation.
We are far stronger a realm than we were at the moment we learned of them.

And they are PCs. With unique knowledge and skills, and lore...
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That was pre-Fungus Forge, so we basically just threw them all in a mass grave and then left.
 
zxzx24 said:
I need to know, what is too much about it? Too much damage? To many dice? Too much stuffing?

I did the math for its damage and it is in the same place as his full attack, but much more accurate.

So whats too much about it I guess?


They did? Azema is a full mortal now, and the erinyes are native outsiders. They're just ya know, evil because thats how they understand and parse the world.

And their temperament. Its literally what they exist to do.
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It hits very hard over a significant range and it can be used to attack multiple targets simultaneously. And he can do it at will. I consider that too much power on top of everything else he will have, including 7th level Divine spells. Make it 3/Day, please?
 
Azel said:
Fair enough, but you know that the hypocrisy is rankling me.

It's almost as if charismatic strongmen who promise everything being awesome if they are just handed absolute power are not all that great people in the end...
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On the other hand the real world does not have actual apocalyptic otherworldly threats rushing towards it. On the balance I would say Viserys is too self-aware of his own flaws and concerned with maintaining freedom of conscience to be what I would call 'evil'. As for the Alignment field on his sheet... I'm not really that interested in it these days. My sense of the character contains far more nuanced motivations and principles
 
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