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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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zxzx24 said:
What angels?

This is the first angel we met, except baelor who we never spoke to.
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Exactly, they started off with Baelor several thousand pages ago. And we've spent dozens of updates planning around the fact that the Seven do in fact command angels.

To change anything about the fact now is incongruous to the extreme, and I'm against it.
 
Snowfire said:
The Ends Justify the Means has never been and never will be a phrase that any character with a Good alignment should ever speak.
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Well yeah which is why we are a Lawful Neutral character who is doing good, not a Lawful Good character.

Viserys is not good, but he's closer to Good than he is to evil on the alignment scale, but in the end he's Neutral, even if he's in the nicer half of the Neutral beings, because in the end Good and Evil is a simplification, outside of Outsiders at least, mortals are all shades of grey.

It's just that some are so light a shade of grey, the untrained eye see them as white, which is the beings that are called Good. And some are so dark a shade of grey, the untrained eye see them as black, which is the beings that are called Evil, and the beings that clearly look grey are what are called Neutral, but there's a big difference between a light grey Neutral, and a dark grey Neutral, and Viserys is on the lighter side of grey.
Azel said:
Then the Erinyes are locked into Lawful Evil?

I'm peachy with that, but that's what you are saying. If nature is absolute, then we would have to physically pry the Evil out of them.
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Nature is not absolute for an Outsider, the existence of Baator prove that, as if an Outsider couldn't change alignment, then Celestials could never have become Fiends.

What I think Outsiders are limited in, is that they can't experience gradual alignment change, an angel don't fall, by slowly beginning to care less about the innocent suffering, it fall all at once, going from Good to Evil in an instant, if you get to an angel 5 minutes before it would have fallen, then it will still act just as good as it always did, because it's only the moment, when it's doubts and discovered hypocrisies overwhelm it that it changes.

Things build up but they don't effect the Outsider, until the moment they become so powerful, that in a grand revelation, the Outsiders nature change, and it mutate into an entirely different form of Outsider.

Azema and our Erinyes are exceptions, as they have become something not completely Outsider, allowing them to change gradually as mortals do, instead of only being able to change, in grand mind-shattering and reconstituting revelations as Outsiders do, but full Outsiders don't change by degree, change is all or nothing with them.

This is how I interpret beings made of raw alignment at least, they can only contain 1 alignment, so anything that don't fit that alignment is locked away, either to wither into nothing, if it's current alignment is supported, or to slowly grow, until it becomes so strong that it overpower it's current alignment, reshaping the Outsider utterly in an instant.
Azel said:
Fair enough, but you know that the hypocrisy is rankling me.

It's almost as if charismatic strongmen who promise everything being awesome if they are just handed absolute power are not all that great people in the end...
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Personally calling Viserys Good irritates me as he really isn't, but calling him Evil irritates me even more, as he's somewhat further from Evil that Good, and he is dedicated to doing Good, even if he's not at all dedicated to being Good.
TalonofAnathrax said:
Changing the subject: I disagree with the idea that the Seven have been unfairly nerfed, but I do feel like the devils were letting us play on easy mode for a while there.
Now that we have the Hall of Mirrors it makes perfect sense for them not to Teleport in, set fires in SD and immediately flee (Divination dissuasion) but they could have been harming our kingdom, ruining our PR and sealing our efforts at almost no cost for years !

Meanwhile the Seven were under the same restrictions as all the other gods (it's easier to summon evil than good, gods begin rather detached from the setting, significant opposition and setting structure inconveniences held them back...) so their troubles isn't a huge problem for me. However before we could see their efforts and struggled against other actors, OOC they did feel as if they lacked agency.
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It's not actually easier to summon Evil than Good, it's just easier to reasonably safely summon evil than Good, because sacrifice is one of the easiest ways to summon strong Outsider, and while Fiends are generally untrustworthy, they wont have a grudge against you in particular, for sacrificing 50 babies to summon them, whereas if you summon an Archon in that way, then said Archon will hate you in particular, and even if it will get it banished from this world or outright destroyed, it will take any chance to kill or harm you.
 
tarrangar said:
It's not actually easier to summon Evil than Good, it's just easier to reasonably safely summon evil than Good, because sacrifice is one of the easiest ways to summon strong Outsider, and while Fiends are generally untrustworthy, they wont have a grudge against you in particular, for sacrificing 50 babies to summon them, whereas if you summon an Archon in that way, then said Archon will hate you in particular, and even if it will get it banished from this world or outright destroyed, it will take any chance to kill or harm you.
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In this setting, DP has explicitly said that due to the disharmony of the spheres, every attempt to summon Good has a change of accidentally summoning some kind of Evil instead.
 
@DragonParadox Then If no one finds any further issues... Yraels update is complete!

He is now a nightmare machine on wheels however.
Name: Yrael, Archon of Mantarys (Archon Lord)
Titles: Lord of Mantarys, The Bright Lord, Angel of Vengeance
Age:???
Alignment: Lawful Good
Race: Medium outsider (archon, extraplanar, good, lawful)
Level/Class: 16HD
Flaws: Honorable Challenge, Sentimental
Feats: Improved Critical (Greatsword) (B), Whirlwind Attack(B), Power Attack, Extra Turning, Protection Devotion, Mage Slayer, Practiced Spellcaster, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, DMM quicken spell,
Skill Tricks: Clarity of Vision
Senses: Darkvision 60 ft. Detect Evil, Low-Light Vision;
Aura: Aura of Menace (DC 18)
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Ancient Valyrian, Abyssal Infernal; truespeech
SQ: Second Skin, Deliver Judgement, Staff of Authority, Vibhuti


DEFENSE
hp: 212 (16d10+112)
AC: 35 = 10 (base) +4 (dex) +13 (full plate) +6 (natural) +2 (deflection)
Speed 30ft., fly 90 ft. (average)
Initiative: +6
Attack: Melee +1 Holy Flaming Greatsword +28/+23/+18/+13 = (2d6 + 1d6 Fire + 16/19-20 x2) - +2d6 damage against Evil targets, +2d10 fire damage on critical.
[+16/+11/+6/+1 (bab) +8 (str) +1 (magic) + 3 (morale)]; [2d6 (base) +1d6 (flaming) + 12 (STR) +1 (Enchantment) + 3 (morale)]

Ranged +1 Holy Flaming javelin +27/+22/+17/+12 = (1d6 + 1d6 Fire + 13/ x2) - +2d6 damage against Evil targets - 30 ft range increment
[+16/+11/+6/+1 (bab) +6 (dex) +1 (magic) + 4 (morale)]; [1d6 (base) +1d6 (frost) + 8 (STR) +1 (Enchantment) + 4 (morale)]

Special:
Spell Save: 10 + 7 (wis) + Spell level =
Weapon Proficiency: Simple, Martial
Immunities: Electricity, Petrification, All Death Spells, Magical Death Effects, Energy Drain, and any Negative Energy Effects
SR: 24
DR: 10/evil

STATS:
26 (+8) Strength
20 +2 =22 (+6) Dexterity
22 +2 =24 (+7) Constitution
18 (+4) Intelligence
22 +2 =24 (+7) Wisdom
20 +2 = 22 (+6) Charisma

SAVES
Fort +17, Ref +16, Will +17; +4 vs. poison, +2 vs. evil

SKILLS 228/228
Skills: Diplomacy +38, Intimidate +27, Knowledge (the planes) +23, Knowledge (War) +23, Knowledge (Local) +23, Listen +26, Sense Motive +26, Spell craft +23, Spot +26, Bluff +25, Knowledge (Nobility) +23, Profession (Management) +25,


Spell like abilities:
Constant—detect evil, magic circle against evil, discern lies (DC 20),
At will—aid, continual flame, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), message,
3/day— mass align weapon, mass versatile weapon, Mark of Justice, Wall of Fire,
1/day— Mass Fire Shield,

Maneuver like abilities: Initiator level 13
Constant- Golden Generals Attitude,
3/day- Defending the Pride,
1/day- Endurance of the Strong,


Deliver Judgement (Su)

Lastly When an Archon detects a creature lying in his presence, he can immediately target said creature with his Mark of Justice SLA as a free action. More than one careless fiend has met their doom attempting sweet lies or false promises against an Archon Lord.

Staff of Authority (Ex)
A Warlord Archon can Manifest a Suzerian Scepter as a move equivalent action. The Scepter vanishes when the Warlord Archon dies, or when the Scepter leaves its hand.

Vibhuti (Su)

A Warlord archon can manifest a +1 Holy flaming burst greatsword or +1 Holy flaming javelin as a free action. The legion archon's sword vanishes if it leaves its hand, and its javelin vanishes after striking or missing its target. Or after one round, whichever is shorter. It crumbles to ash if another creature attemps to use them.

In addition a when Warlord Archons uses its Wall of Fire and Mass Fire Shield spell like abilities half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.

Finally a Warlord Archons Mass Fire Shield has a duration of 1 minute/level, and grants immunity to all damage dealt by the Archons Wall of Fire spell like ability.

Cleric Spells: Caster level 13 (13 levels of spells) [Prepared] (Protection and War domains for spells)
0th: (6) Cure Minor Wounds x2, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Mending, Light,
1st: (7+1) Barbed Chains, Bless, Moment of Greatness, Sign, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Clarion Call, Sanctuary(D),
2nd: (7+1) Silence, Close Wounds, Divine Protection, Ironskin, Divine insight, Sound Burst, Elation, Spiritual Weapon(D),
3rd: (6+1) Alter Fortune, Dispel Magic, Mass Aid, Mass Conviction, Mass Resist Energy, Knight's Move, Magic Vestment(D)
4th: (5+1) Assay Spell Resistance, Blessing of Fervor, Freedom of Movement, Mass Shield of Faith, Recitation, Divine Power(D)
5th: (4+1) Fickle Winds, Revivify, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, True Seeing, Spell Resistance(D)
6th: (3+1) Banishment, Chains of Light, Heal, Antimagic Field(D)
7th: (2+1) Mass Spell Resistance, Radiant Assault, Power Word Blind(D)

Boneward Belt Powers (3 charges/day):
1 charge: Heals 2d8 points of damage
2 charges: Heals 3d8 points of damage
3 charges: Heals 4d8 points of damage

Anklets of Translocation (2/day) (Slotless):
Ability: Instantly teleport as per a short dimensional hop (with no chance of error) up to 10 feet. The new space must be within line of sight and line of effect. One cannot use the anklet to move into a space occupied by another creature, nor can one teleport into a solid object; if such an attempt is made, the anklet's activation is wasted. The Wearer can bring along objects weighing up to your maximum load, but you can't bring another creature with you.

Headband of the Whisper Within:
5/day as a Swift Action, add +2 Competence bonus on any Dispel Magic checks made before the end of the turn.

Earring of Arcane Acuity (3 charges/day):
1 charge: Darkvision 60 ft. for 1 hour
2 charges: See Invisibility for 10 minutes
3 charges: True Seeing for 1 minute

Amulet of Tears (3 charges/day):
1 charge: 12 temporary hit points
2 charges: 18 temporary hit points
3 charges: 24 temporary hit points
Duration: 10 minutes

Permant Channel Vigor:
You focus the energy of your mind, body, and spirit into a specific part of your being, granting yourself an exceptional ability to perform certain tasks. When you cast the spell, choose one of the following portions of your self as your focus target. Thereafter, you may change the focus target as a move action. You can gain the benefit of only one channel vigor spell at a time.

Equipped Items: Boneward Belt, Anklets of Translocation, Headband of the Whisper Within (+2 WIS), Gloves of Zephyr's Grace (+2 DEX), Earring of Arcane Acuity, +1 Soulfire Mithral Bracers, Amulet of tears. Ring of Untarnished Glory (+2 CHA), Armor of the Radiant Savior: Segmented Reinforced Ornate Sanctified Mithral Fullplate (+1)

He is so good at buffs now.

He makes any battlegroup he is a part of just insane.
 
Snowfire said:
It's one of the only things that makes sense. Alignment subtypes mean something, mate. They mean that you are, fundamentally, an embodiment of a force of reality. That doesn't make you infallible, but it's like...the example of how DP is making it impossible for Fae to lie. It's that level of restriction. Anything less ultimately cheapens that element of the metaphysics to the point that it might as well not exist.



Least Evil remains Evil, after all.
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"If I have to choose the lesser of two evils, I'd rather not choose at all."

Also, I'd be curious hearing what Azel would use to justify Viserys as evil or break him. He does have one really obvious weakness but I doubt it will ever come up here again.
 
Snowfire said:
Obviously we need unreasoned debate, then :V
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Unreasoned debate absolutely has its place though. Don't mock the ever-useful "fuck you, I'm not debating Nazis" tactic !

Indeed, IMO there is a point at which you can either use unreasoned debating (fall back on axiom choice, this invalidating the opposing logic), or you can get in for an on/off years-long argument aiming at changing someone's fundamental axioms (and prejudices, and sources of information) so that they can then be reasoned into believing what you want them to believe.
It works for Islamic terrorists and right-wing terrorists here in France, after all. Sure they call it by a prettier name when they do that in prison + therapy, but that's what it boils down to really.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Unreasoned debate absolutely has its place though. Don't mock the ever-useful "fuck you, I'm not debating Nazis" tactic !

Indeed, IMO there is a point at which you can either use unreasoned debating (fall back on axiom choice, this invalidating the opposing logic), or you can get in for an on/off years-long argument aiming at changing someone's fundamental axioms (and prejudices, and sources of information) so that they can then be reasoned into believing what you want them to believe.
It works for Islamic terrorists and right-wing terrorists here in France, after all. Sure they call it by a prettier name when they do that in prison + therapy, but that's what it boils down to really.
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Unreasoned debate absolutely does not have a place in the world. Unfortunately much like chemical weapons, new age propaganda and shark-fin soup, it exists nonetheless.
 
Honestly I'm willing to admit the possibility that we are incredibly evil because I am the most gullible person ever. I can't remember the last time I didn't go "Eh, this guy might be a good guy" when a movie introduced its incredibly obvious villain. I'm that sucker who falls for all the lies the bad guy says.
 
lockingbane said:
You're from france? It nice there? My cousin has been considering moving to Bordeaux so I am kind of curious
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That is a question better suited for PMs, I think ;)
Still, of course I think that France is pretty great overall. I don't know Bordeaux very well (never lived there, have only visited a few times) so any advice I could give would be general stuff (learn French if you want to live here, basic politeness and cultural tips, etc). For more precise details and advice from locals, try something like Quora.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
That is a question better suited for PMs, I think ;)
Still, of course I think that France is pretty great overall. I don't know Bordeaux very well (never lived there, have only visited a few times) so any advice I could give would be general stuff (learn French if you want to live here, basic politeness and cultural tips, etc). For more precise details and advice from locals, try something like Quora.
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Ill be sure to tell him.

Also my question was half curiousity and half an attempt to move past the debate that is still ongoing albeit on a much lower key.
 
Duesal said:
The Seven started off with these angels, and for them to have it retconned now really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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People could have just mistaken them? They ought to look quite similar.

~~

Personally the I think the wisest thing'd be to disconnect morality entirely from the D&D alignment system. Yes it's not as written, but D&D as written leads to endless "killing baby Hitler" situations that make next to no sense.
I'd propose to just codify Good and Evil as, energies/places/alliances gods live.
To stick with killing baby Hitler;
- Savras, god of Divination says "Impressive bit of divination there. good job."
- Tyr, god of Justice "Your actions prevented future injustice but were not justified now. 0 points."
- Talos, god of Destruction "One one hand you totally destroyed that baby but ..."

So what I propose that any action em(de)powers/resonates with a multitude of gods, who in term have joined/allied together to create the alignment factions we all know from D&D.
(e.g. Good as the literal substance/planar location is the "Egg to the Hen" of the gods.)


If a mortal is designated as Good or Evil, depends on their chosen afterlife manager (and said's approval).

((please, let's not argue about what a god would think about killing baby Hitler. it's just a spicy example)
 
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Well Bloodraven (endorsed and aided by us) already pretty much does the whole "kill baby Hitler" thing :D

Real question: is "kill baby Viserys" evil ? :p
 
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