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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
It might even make a certain amount of sense for the Seven's Outsiders to be more human-like than is the norm in D&D cosmology. We need to consider how devasted the Celestial Planes were by the shattering of the spheres.

The Seven might be starting from scratch, raising new Celestial servants to replace those lost to them much sooner than would be expected, leaving more of their personalities intact. Eons can normally pass before a mortal soul ascends to Outsider-dom.
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Yrael has been successfully summoning more Archons. This does not really hold up that well.
 
Azel said:
A Lawful Good Succubus Paladin still keeps their Chaotic Evil subtypes.

Because she is made of Chaos and Evil, but she can still change her personality.

I think @Snowfire is just devastated to learn that even the paragons of Good in this world a petty little tyrants and delusional murderers.
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True but that succubus was more of an oddity, the transcendence of personal will over being. I think that for whole classes of celestial beings who act more human-like it would be fair to remove the subtype .
 
Azel said:
Which is irking me something fierce. Where are they coming from if not the Upper Planes and if they come from there, why do we have no idea about what's going on there?
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If we don't get at least some idea of what's going on when we do the mass-summoning we have planned (or have we already done that?) I'm going to have some reasonably serious issues with it.
 
DragonParadox said:
True but that succubus was more of an oddity, the transcendence of personal will over being. I think that for whole classes of celestial beings who act more human-like it would be fair to remove the subtype .
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Then the Erinyes are locked into Lawful Evil?

I'm peachy with that, but that's what you are saying. If nature is absolute, then we would have to physically pry the Evil out of them.
 
Azel said:
Mereth shifting towards Neutral. Leto being less of a turbo-bitch at everyone. Azema vaguely sauntering upwards.

Why can they act against their metaphysical nature, but Blind Zealot Deva is bad?
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Because they didn't start there. We enabled them to change. And let's be honest, our Erinyes and Azema shouldn't have Alignment subtypes anymore given how we snapped their metaphysical connections to Hell and the Abyss, respectively.

Azel said:
Then the Erinyes are locked into Lawful Evil?

I'm peachy with that, but that's what you are saying. If nature is absolute, then we would have to physically pry the Evil out of them.
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See above. We've already done most of that work, apparently. Somehow.
 
Snowfire said:
If we don't get at least some idea of what's going on when we do the mass-summoning we have planned (or have we already done that?) I'm going to have some reasonably serious issues with it.
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We have 2 types of summoning in the works:
A) Summoning servants of Mammon that Uniila knew (120+ beings), and a few Erynies we didn't last month.
B) Summoning Phoenixes next month to help out with Scholarum.

We also summoned huge amounts of Outsiders the last month.
Won't give the numbers, but no less than... 50? 70?

We didn't get any insight on Heavens in the process, our only clue came from Jazzirian.
 
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Azel said:
Then the Erinyes are locked into Lawful Evil?

I'm peachy with that, but that's what you are saying. If nature is absolute, then we would have to physically pry the Evil out of them.
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No they are not, they too can choose to change. The distinction I was making was for an outsider that acts 'neutral' because of the god who made it not though its own will. That feels like it would be reflected in type.
 
egoo said:
We have 2 types of summoning in the works:
A) Summoning servants of Mammon that Uniila knew (120+ beings), and a few Erynies we didn't last month.
B) Summoning Phoenixes next month to help out with Scholarum.

We also sumMoned huge amounts of Outsiders the last Month.
Won't give the numbers, but no less than... 50? 70?
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What about the Therapy Archons we were going to grab? Or is that still a long term project?
 
Also about the upper planes I was going to wait until the Scholarum of Manatrys to give you the info on that, but I can just bite the bullet and cover it in the morning in an info post if you like.
 
Snowfire said:
What about the Therapy Archons we were going to grab? Or is that still a long term project?
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...To be completely honest, I have no idea what you are talking about.

If there was summoning I missed and didnt add to the list...
Well, I will, the moment you tell me what exactly we wanted to summon :V
 
DragonParadox said:
Also about the upper planes I was going to wait until the Scholarum of Manatrys to give you the info on that, but I can just bite the bullet and cover it in the morning in an info post if you like.
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Yes, please.
Also, vote is solid now.
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 1, 2019 at 3:15 PM, finished with 187 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] "It is odd that you claim allegiance to the Father, not the Seven, and invoke the Crone when asking for wisdom. Would he do the same, or trust that his judgement is always above such reproach?"
    -[X] "One thing though I would ask you to ponder in your meditation. How many have you slain not by the blade, but by denying them the help of others? How many of those vile witches and warlocks that wished not to raise their blades for your gods could have become healers and scholars? If you think there is a price for magic to be paid in the future, then there must also be a price paid for it's absence. And maybe it would be a much lower price to watch those practitioners for wrongdoing instead of judging them not by their deeds, but by your fears."
    [X] Suggest that he look instead to the Maiden for did he not call this a New Age
    -[X] you have heard of how the Chosen of the Maiden is a boon companion of both inhuman spirits and non-sworn sorcerers. Perhaps she can help him with his contemplations on a new age.
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...
People, I am absolutely not convinced that "Viserys should be Evil" makes any sense. If we are sticking to the D&D definition of good and evil, then he absolutely doesn't meet most of the criterion for being Evil.

Furthermore, his immense generosity, selflessness and care for others should be pushing him towards Good hard. Ending slavery? Feeding the hungry and caring for the poor? Providing justice, defending the innocent?

Meanwhile the worst things we did were: theft (not a huge deal in D&D), murder (not great, but the morality of murder is deeply target-dependent in D&D), blood sacrifice of evil outsiders (pretty sure it doesn't fall within the stupid BOED/BOVD definitions of D&D alignment rules), sending our army to war when we could have avoided doing so (but a just war nonetheless), and killing a bunch of slavers (not a problem either).


Remember, D&D alignement was made for a fighting game designed in America. So slaughtering people isn't always evil, but taking weed is just as evil as raping and torturing babies.

While IRL I would struggle to call Viserys a truly good person, in D&D alignment terms he has performed a lot of Good acts, not just Evil !


Killing all the Alchemists? Made perfect sense, but was probably Evil (or at least Neutral, minimising risks to the city at the cost of the lives of likely innocent lesser alchemists). Murdering thieves in Braavos? Whatever, D&D alignement doesn't give much of a shit about killing those who commit lots of evil acts like theft (and it doesn't really care about stealing from them either). Poisoning those thieves? Oh, that's as bad as selling innocents as slaves, so we probably went very Evil there ! Sneaking up on enemies like cultists, devils or Evil humans of any type? Not a problem as long as it qualifies as "ambush" and not "assassination" (and we rarely actually assassinate anyone, actually. Mostly we use stealth before attacking people who are armed and can fight back).
 
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DragonParadox said:
No they are not, they too can choose to change. The distinction I was making was for an outsider that acts 'neutral' because of the god who made it not though its own will. That feels like it would be reflected in type.
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Then they should get at least the Lawful subtype in return, or, you know, replace with them re-skinned Inevitables or Axiomites.

But that raises the question why a Lawful Neutral Outsider would serve a shit-waffle that can't even abide by the rules of Parley...
 
Snowfire said:
Yrael has been successfully summoning more Archons. This does not really hold up that well.
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Azel said:
Which is irking me something fierce. Where are they coming from if not the Upper Planes and if they come from there, why do we have no idea about what's going on there?
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I've been hoping that rather than simply summoning those Archon, Yrael and company have been shining an Archon Signal Beacon out into the cosmos to attract those remaining scattered upon the Planes.

It's not only fitting for the background of the setting, I really like the idea of Mantarys becoming the home for Archon refugees after it's long tenure as Demon central.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
...
People, I am absolutely not convinced that "Viserys should be Evil" makes any sense. If we are sticking to the D&D definition of good and evil, then he absolutely doesn't meet most of the criterion for being Evil.

Furthermore, his immense generosity, selflessness and care for others should be pushing him towards Good hard. Ending slavery? Feeding the hungry and caring for the poor? Providing justice, defending the innocent?

Meanwhile the worst things we did were: theft (not a huge deal in D&D), murder (not great, but the morality or murder is deeply target-dependent in D&D), blood sacrifice of evil outsiders (pretty sure it doesn't fall within the stuoid BOED/BOVD definitions of D&D alignment rules), sending our army to war when we could have avoided doing so (but a just war nonetheless), and killing a bunch of slavers (not a problem either).


Remember, D&D alignement was made for a fighting game designed in America. So slaughtering people isn't always evil, but taking weed is just as evil as raping and torturing babies.

While IRL I would struggle to call Viserys a truly good person, in D&D alignment terms he has performed a lot of Good acts, not just Evil !


Killing all the Alchemists? Made perfect sense, but was probably Evil (or at least Neutral, minimising risks to the city at the cost of the lives of likely innocent lesser alchemists). Murdering thieves in Braavos? Whatever, D&D alignement doesn't give much of a shit about killing those who commit lots of evil acts like theft (and it doesn't really care about stealing from them either). Poisoning those thieves? Oh, that's as bad as selling innocents as slaves, so we probably went very Evil there ! Sneaking up on enemies like cultists, devils or Evil humans of any type? Not a problem as long as it qualifies as "ambush" and not "assassination" (and we rarely actually assassinate anyone, actually. Mostly we use stealth before attacking people who are armed and can fight back).
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What about the cold-blooded murder of the entire Golden Company force that were holding the Sleepers in Essaria? Who couldn't even fight back. What was the number there, five hundred? A thousand? More? They didn't need to die. We killed them all because it was convenient. Nothing more.
 
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Azel said:
Then they should get at least the Lawful subtype in return, or, you know, replace with them re-skinned Inevitables or Axiomites.

But that raises the question why a Lawful Neutral Outsider would serve a shit-waffle that can't even abide by the rules of Parley...
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  1. I would probably give them the Lawful subtype yes
  2. As for why they serve Lucan, that is something I would be more comfortable exploring IC as the conclave arc continues
Speaking of continuing the arc, vote closed so I can get one more update out.
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 1, 2019 at 3:15 PM, finished with 187 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] "It is odd that you claim allegiance to the Father, not the Seven, and invoke the Crone when asking for wisdom. Would he do the same, or trust that his judgement is always above such reproach?"
    -[X] "One thing though I would ask you to ponder in your meditation. How many have you slain not by the blade, but by denying them the help of others? How many of those vile witches and warlocks that wished not to raise their blades for your gods could have become healers and scholars? If you think there is a price for magic to be paid in the future, then there must also be a price paid for it's absence. And maybe it would be a much lower price to watch those practitioners for wrongdoing instead of judging them not by their deeds, but by your fears."
    [X] Suggest that he look instead to the Maiden for did he not call this a New Age
    -[X] you have heard of how the Chosen of the Maiden is a boon companion of both inhuman spirits and non-sworn sorcerers. Perhaps she can help him with his contemplations on a new age.
Click to expand...
 
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