A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
Not even that, he's an Angel not an Archon, he's Neutral Good not Lawful Good, so this is not a case of a Lawful Good being putting Law before Good, it's a case of a Good being, deluded into thinking an evil act is for the greater Good.
He's drunk the Kool-Aid, and been convinced only the Seven can be truly righteous.
[X] A_Somebody
- Location
- Germany
It's cute how much he and Yrael are alike, isn't it?
- Location
- Germany
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- ?????????
Just as a note for mortals at least praying to the Crone for wisdom is a reasonably common occurrence. Viserys obviously does not know how much that extends of celestials.
- Location
- Germany
Have another glass of Kool-Aid my friend.Exept we believe that Viserys' greater good is all in all correct.
Sure, but by saying that he prays to the Crone for wisdom, not his patron the Father, he implies that the Father and by extension his chosen Lucan is fallible.
- Location
- florida
Mmm. Let's put the good back in lawful and see what we get shall we?
No. No that's not how justice works.
Heaven is not the fucking minority report.
Killing regular ass people because they might someday become a threat is logic that even inevitables would find laughable.
It's fucking 100% pure westeros stupid, and it's right back to Viserys Freudian excuse again because Roland knows that this isn't right.
One of the reasons Viserys ended up with such a fucking complex about self determination, going so far as to tell the archon he is standing next to to put his conscience first is because of what HIS dad did.
And the dumbass loop that all of human civilization seems to be stuck in.
People don't use their brains, and just go along with what their lord or boss or king wants them to do without thinking JEE, MAYBE I SHOULDNT SET THE FUCKING CITY ON FIRE. THAT SOUNDS PRETTY CRAZY ACTUALLY!
AND IT JUST KEEPS HAPPENING! OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN WE HAVE TO SAVE THESE DUMBASSES FROM THE PEOPLE WHO EAGERLY LEAD THEM OFF A FUCKING CLIFF!!!
And now we've apparently come to the fucking star on the dumbass tree.
It's all the self righteous prick lords and noble jackasses worshipping him I just know it.
That their culture has so thoroughly ingrained "what your lord or father commands IS virtue, right and wrong were just something you imagined".
I hate it. I hate it SO much.
And hearing a fucking angel of all things spew that tired bullshit excuse to cover for either a tyrant or a mad man is just too. much!
- Location
- Germany
Just a statement what we players in general believe.Have another glass of Kool-Aid my friend.
I am aware you are more cynic, but I got the impression that the majority of us really does think we are doing good for the world, not just for Viserys.
And by now I believe at least we are the best option, even if not that good on some objective scale.
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I'm sorry this is frustrating for you. If it helps remember death is not the only option, they can also give up magic.
- Location
- Germany
And it took quite some effort to convince all of you that all of this is fine. The police state, the executions, the proactive murder of political enemies...
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
I...think you may be missing the point again here, DP. Angels are, by RAW, literal incarnations of Good. Good, in the alignment system and at its core, is built around the ideal of selflessness. Angels do not ascribe to this ideal; they are that ideal. The fundamental of nature of their creature subtypes makes them this. And that they are falling into the same logical fallacy that has allowed us to break so many beings away from their paths - a logical fallacy that Yrael was able to avoid somehow - is incredibly straining.
Like, to put it another way. Yrael has always been this archetype of his alignment. It's been good to see. Every extraplanar agent of the Seven has had these massive, gaping and human holes in their logic chains. When they're meant to be Outsiders.
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- Location
- United States
I just want a plane-spanning empire. And a nice trophy room to go with it.
To be fair the police state still has far more representation and a better justice system than what one might find in Westeros in canon. People get to vote on the body that drafts laws, a guilty verdict has to be based on evidence and it can no longer be overturned by just being good at killing (or paying someone who is). That does not even get into things like a humane prison system and free healthcare
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- Germany
Well they were mortals, not so long ago.
And the gods that raised them are shaped by humans.
They are just not as far removed from human fallacies as an angel or archon born/come into being in Celestia, made of souls long cleaned from mortal memories would be.
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Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
And we've coldly slaughtered tens of thousands to get there, the vast majority of which were at worst petty criminals. What we've created might be good for those inside it, but nothing about how we created it has been Good.
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Fair point.
I'm not sure what I can do about it though, the flaws in the nature of the Seven and their servants are built into the world-building I set up. I guess I could have them all be neutral rather than truly Good to reflect their logic flaws
I hate the alignment system sometimes
- Location
- United States
They could just be utterly delusional about what Good constitutes.Fair point.
I'm not sure what I can do about it though, the flaws in the nature of the Seven and their servants are built into the world-building I set up. I guess I could have them all be neutral rather than truly Good to reflect their logic flaws
I hate the alignment system sometimes
I actually thought that once they were presented with the monument of their hypocrisy that was the moment they would Fall. I was looking forward to it.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Fair point.
I'm not sure what I can do about it though, the flaws in the nature of the Seven and their servants are built into the world-building I set up. I guess I could have them all be neutral rather than truly Good to reflect their logic flaws
I hate the alignment system sometimes
If you were to build a Divine Outline for the Seven-as-One, what Alignment would you ascribe to them? Or, perhaps more correctly, what alignments would you ascribe to each of them?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
That is not how D&D metaphysics work. Good and Evil are forces as fundamental to this world as gravity. If they're not, spells like Holy Word cease to exist.
- Location
- Argentina
They actually seem to be more mortal-minded than elder outsiders, frankly. They still appear to echo some thoughts from when they were mortal and thus, fallible.
Baelor the Blessed follwed this pattern. In theory becoming an outsider means losing all your personality and identity, as just the quintessense that makes your soul is transformed into a body made from a raw alignment. But we recognized Baelor for who he used to be. Heck, we recognized this guy as somebody who lived in Andalos thousands of years before today.
These angels of the Seven seem to be recently born ones, as the whole religion is young by mortal standards. It is an oddity by canon D&D, but it would make sense to have these young outsiders thinking in mortal terms rather than the alignment themes we would expect. That would also explain Yrael in this logic. He was an elder Archon, working for LG itself, instead of a god.
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