Remove ads

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

Reader mode
Tomcost said:
They actually seem to be more mortal-minded than elder outsiders, frankly. They still appear to echo some thoughts from when they were mortal and thus, fallible.

Baelor the Blessed follwed this pattern. In theory becoming an outsiders means losing all your personality and identity, as just the quintessense that makes your soul is transformed into a body made from a raw alignment. But we recognized Baelor for who he used to be. Heck, we recognized this guy as somebody who lived in Andalos thousands years before today.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You are in fact expressing my issue with this, yes.

Like, @DragonParadox the way I always thought the Angels of the Seven would work was that they'd have the memories of those souls that had become them perhaps, but not actually be human. If you're going the other direction with that, ok, but I think then you have to have a serious think about if alignment subtypes apply. And at that point...what exactly are the divine messengers of each of the Seven? The only ones we've seen so far have been of the Father, to be fair, but even so it bears thinking on.
 
DragonParadox said:
Fair point.

I'm not sure what I can do about it though, the flaws in the nature of the Seven and their servants are built into the world-building I set up. I guess I could have them all be neutral rather than truly Good to reflect their logic flaws

I hate the alignment system sometimes:(
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think it's quite fitting that even Good beings, Outsiders included, can be shaped by cultural mores. The Seven shaped the culture of Westeros, and were in turn shaped by it, so that eventually they even shaped the Outsiders they created from human souls to have the same cultural blindspot and idiosyncrasies. I can see how it might be frustrating for those who expect them to embody a concept more clearly, but it makes sense to me.

It would be interesting to see culture clashes between Outsiders raised up by the Seven and those raised up by the Moonsingers, despite being g otherwise identical.
 
Goldfish said:
I think it's quite fitting that even Good beings, Outsiders included, can be shaped by cultural mores. The Seven shaped the culture of Westeros, and were in turn shaped by it, so that eventually they even shaped the Outsiders they created from human souls to have the same cultural blindspot and idiosyncrasies. I can see how it might be frustrating for those who expect them to embody a concept more clearly, but it makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is literally counter to the overarching alignment, subtype and outsider metaphysics of 3.5. Like, there isn't really another way for me to put this. Outsiders aren't their mortal selves made more unless some really finicky shit goes on, usually involving reaching level 20.

Goldfish said:
It would be interesting to see culture clashes between Outsiders raised up by the Seven and those raised up by the Moonsingers, despite being g otherwise identical.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And yet this makes perfect sense, because they're bound to different Gods and therefore their particular lens is different. But they should still have, in my opinion, similar viewpoints that are by fundamental nature somewhat alien.
 
zxzx24 said:
Mmm. Let's put the good back in lawful and see what we get shall we?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Again this is an Angel, it's not Lawful, it's Neutral on the Law/Chaos scale.
Snowfire said:
And we've coldly slaughtered tens of thousands to get there, the vast majority of which were at worst petty criminals. What we've created might be good for those inside it, but nothing about how we created it has been Good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We have saved far more than we have killed, we have made some mistakes, and we have killed some people who didn't deserve it in the name of expediency, but in the end while we haven't been downright Good, we can say that even if Viserys should disappear from the world tomorrow, he would leave it a better place than he found it, and you can't really ask for more than that.
 
Snowfire said:
If you were to build a Divine Outline for the Seven-as-One, what Alignment would you ascribe to them? Or, perhaps more correctly, what alignments would you ascribe to each of them?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
  1. Father LN: Reflecting the general perspective of the virtues of authority in Westeros
  2. Smith NG: The smith is a creator, but he does not keep what he makes, the altruism is where he gets the Good component
  3. Warrior LN: The Warrior's virtue is bravery and that does not really have a moral component though he is supposed to keep his oaths
  4. Mother LG: Nurturing figure, seen as softening the father's harsh stance
  5. Maiden NG: The kindness of youth untroubled by the harshness of the world
  6. Crone LN: Wisdom Can be harsh, he is associated with opening the doors of death so not inherently kindly
  7. Stranger TN: Death unknown and unknowable
When acting in concert they thus skew to both law and good.
 
tarrangar said:
We have saved far more than we have killed, we have made some mistakes, and we have killed some people who didn't deserve it in the name of expediency, but in the end while we haven't been downright Good, we can say that even if Viserys should disappear from the world tomorrow, he would leave it a better place than he found it, and you can't really ask for more than that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Ends Justify the Means has never been and never will be a phrase that any character with a Good alignment should ever speak.
 
DragonParadox said:
  1. Father LN: Reflecting the general perspective of the virtues of authority in Westeros
  2. Smith NG: The smith is a creator, but he does not keep what he makes, the altruism is where he gets the Good component
  3. Warrior LN: The Warrior's virtue is bravery and that does not really have a moral component though he is supposed to keep his oaths
  4. Mother LG: Nurturing figure, seen as softening the father's harsh stance
  5. Maiden NG: The kindness of youth untroubled by the harshness of the world
  6. Crone LN: Wisdom Can be harsh, he is associated with opening the doors of death so not inherently kindly
  7. Stranger TN: Death unknown and unknowable
When acting in concert they thus skew to both law and good.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I would give some very serious thought, then, to the idea of removing alignment subtypes from the Messengers of the Father, Warrior, Stranger and Crone. I'd actually honestly consider refusing access to anything with the Angel subtype to all of them, but that would involve having to create swathes of custom creatures and is far too much to ask. I'd actually give some real thought to having the Crone summon reskinned Inevitables, for example.
 
Snowfire said:
I would give some very serious thought, then, to the idea of removing alignment subtypes from the Messengers of the Father, Warrior, Stranger and Crone. I'd actually honestly consider refusing access to anything with the Angel subtype to all of them, but that would involve having to create swathes of custom creatures and is far too much to ask. I'd actually give some real thought to having the Crone summon reskinned Inevitables.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I am very uncomfortable with retconning of this scale.
 
Snowfire said:
The Ends Justify the Means has never been and never will be a phrase that any character with a Good alignment should ever speak.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Our conquest is the least evil.

The status quo is worse and every other faction with a chance of victory in our great game is far, far worse ( Deep Ones, Devils, etc.)

Ergo we must be good, if all else is worse.

...

I believe that might be similar to what Mereth was thinking when the world was young and her wings turned black.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
Fair point.

I'm not sure what I can do about it though, the flaws in the nature of the Seven and their servants are built into the world-building I set up. I guess I could have them all be neutral rather than truly Good to reflect their logic flaws

I hate the alignment system sometimes:(
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To be fair, I expected Lucan to traipse around with either Outsider styled PC's that are neutral by default or with fallen angels of various breeds.

What he is doing isn't flying as Good under D&D's absolute moral system. Neither is what Viserys is doing summing up to Neutral, but that's another matter.
 
Duesal said:
I am very uncomfortable with retconning of this scale.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's one of the only things that makes sense. Alignment subtypes mean something, mate. They mean that you are, fundamentally, an embodiment of a force of reality. That doesn't make you infallible, but it's like...the example of how DP is making it impossible for Fae to lie. It's that level of restriction. Anything less ultimately cheapens that element of the metaphysics to the point that it might as well not exist.

Artemis1992 said:
Our conquest is the least evil.

The status quo is worse and every other faction with a chance of victory in our great game is far, far worse ( Deep Ones, Devils, etc.)

Ergo we must be good, if all else is worse.

...

I believe that might be similar to what Mereth was thinking when the world was young and her wings turned back.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Least Evil remains Evil, after all.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 1, 2019 at 3:15 PM, finished with 187 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] "It is odd that you claim allegiance to the Father, not the Seven, and invoke the Crone when asking for wisdom. Would he do the same, or trust that his judgement is always above such reproach?"
    -[X] "One thing though I would ask you to ponder in your meditation. How many have you slain not by the blade, but by denying them the help of others? How many of those vile witches and warlocks that wished not to raise their blades for your gods could have become healers and scholars? If you think there is a price for magic to be paid in the future, then there must also be a price paid for it's absence. And maybe it would be a much lower price to watch those practitioners for wrongdoing instead of judging them not by their deeds, but by your fears."
    [X] Suggest that he look instead to the Maiden for did he not call this a New Age
    -[X] you have heard of how the Chosen of the Maiden is a boon companion of both inhuman spirits and non-sworn sorcerers. Perhaps she can help him with his contemplations on a new age.
Click to expand...
 
Snowfire said:
I would give some very serious thought, then, to the idea of removing alignment subtypes from the Messengers of the Father, Warrior, Stranger and Crone. I'd actually honestly consider refusing access to anything with the Angel subtype to all of them, but that would involve having to create swathes of custom creatures and is far too much to ask. I'd actually give some real thought to having the Crone summon reskinned Inevitables, for example.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I can see where you are coming from I wanted to show that they have a shared pool of servants to reflect their common starting place as aspects of a single being. The Seven are not really supposed to be these titanic elemental beings, but reflections of humanity, Younger Gods in every sense which is why they are more beloved, but also informing their errors and flaws. By contrast Yrael is ancient enough to have seen the Great Betrayal and the First Pact hence why I had him embody the alignment more.
 
Last edited:
Artemis1992 said:
Our conquest is the least evil.

The status quo is worse and every other faction with a chance of victory in our great game is far, far worse ( Deep Ones, Devils, etc.)

Ergo we must be good, if all else is worse.

...

I believe that might be similar to what Mereth was thinking when the world was young and her wings turned black.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Only by Warhammer 40K logic. By D&D's Absolute Morality, Evil is Evil, no matter how much worse the other side is.

Or has Baator turned Lawful Good while I wasn't looking for fighting against the rancid pustule of the universe since time immemorial?
 
Azel said:
Only by Warhammer 40K logic. By D&D's Absolute Morality, Evil is Evil, no matter how much worse the other side is.

Or has Baator turned Lawful Good while I wasn't looking for fighting against the rancid pustule of the universe since time immemorial?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dude, I just said this was wrong.
That's why I took the devil as example. Point is she didn't stay good at the point she might have been thinking that.

It was a fallacy, not something that was meant to be correct.
 
DragonParadox said:
I can see where you are coming from I wanted to show that they have a shared pool of servants to reflect their common starting place as aspects of a single being. The Seven are not really supposed to be these titanic elemental beings, but reflections of humanity, Younger Gods in every sense which is why they are more beloved, but also informing their errors and flaws. By contrast Yrael is ancient enough to have seen the Great Betrayal and the First Pact hence why I had him embody the alignment more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Then you probably want, on some level, a Seven-Touched template or subtype that allows for these things to supersede what should be absolutes. Gods give up the idea of freedom of alignment when they ascend - barring extreme changes. And they're nothing more than vastly powerful Outsiders, in the end.

I get that you're looking for nuance here, and that's great. But it needs to make sense in context.
 
Personally, I'm peachy with the Sevens servants being more human then Outsider. They didn't have their personally stripped completely, which makes them far more flexible. But it should also make them more vulnerable.

The goal of my current vote is to exploit just that. Our friend the Deva has slain innocents for the sins they might commit some day. He committed Evil. And he is serving a deluded tyrant.

I'm not expecting him to flip. I'm expecting him to fall.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Dude, I just said this was wrong.
That's why I took the devil as example. Point is she didn't stay good at the point she might have been thinking that.

It was a fallacy, not something that was meant to be correct.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sorry, I just wanted to reinforce the argument you've made.

Because quite a lot of people think that Viserys should be Good by virtue of being the lesser Evil.
 
Snowfire said:
Then you probably want, on some level, a Seven-Touched template or subtype that allows for these things to supersede what should be absolutes. Gods give up the idea of freedom of alignment when they ascend - barring extreme changes. And they're nothing more than vastly powerful Outsiders, in the end.

I get that you're looking for nuance here, and that's great. But it needs to make sense in context.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ultimately I can just remove the alignment subtype and keep the actual alignment, fluff wise nothing much would change

Does that feel alright guys?

@Duesal I know you said you were not comfortable with a retcon, but this is not much of a one in terms of world-building just aligning the mechanics with what I want the servants of the Seven to be.Does it sound fair or would a template work better?

I don't want to break anyone's immersion because I did not fully consider the mechanics.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
So I am a bit confused. What seems to be the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

D&D Alignment is absolute. It always has been. It's why spells like Holy Word and Word of Balance exist, because the forces of those alignments are as fundamental to the universe as gravity. They're part of reality, in a way that I don't think can ever be extracted, and in most cases I feel that's a good thing. The alignment system allows for a swathe of fascinating ideas and character concepts. The problem is when you try and build characters that try to stretch those limits, and this becomes worse when you're trying to do it to beings that are Outsiders with Alignment subtypes. A subtype for an Outsider is a fundamental piece of the nature of their being. Those pieces can change, yes, but often don't except in monumental circumstances - and bluntly, any attempts to turn them into Paladin's Code type bullshit should be fired into the Sun.

Good is, at its core, the ideal of selfless action in defence of the whole. Subtypes of this Alignment mean that those beings with it don't ascribe to this ideal, but that it's as much a part of them as blood is to a human body. It's fundamental to their nature. The issue with the Angels of the Seven that we've seen thus far (Angels of the Father, really) is that that simply doesn't seem to hold up. If anything, they're Angels with the [Neutral] subtype.
 
Azel said:
Personally, I'm peachy with the Sevens servants being more human then Outsider. They didn't have their personally stripped completely, which makes them far more flexible. But it should also make them more vulnerable.

The goal of my current vote is to exploit just that. Our friend the Deva has slain innocents for the sins they might commit some day. He committed Evil. And he is serving a deluded tyrant.

I'm not expecting him to flip. I'm expecting him to fall.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It might even make a certain amount of sense for the Seven's Outsiders to be more human-like than is the norm in D&D cosmology. We need to consider how devasted the Celestial Planes were by the shattering of the spheres.

The Seven might be starting from scratch, raising new Celestial servants to replace those lost to them much sooner than would be expected, leaving more of their personalities intact. Eons can normally pass before a mortal soul ascends to Outsider-dom.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ultimately I can just remove the alignment subtype and keep the actual alignment, fluff wise nothing much would change

Does that feel alright guys?

@Duesal I know you said you were not comfortable with a retcon, but this is not much of a one in terms of world-building just aligning the mechanics with what I want the servants of the Seven to be.Does it sound fair or would a template work better?

I don't want to break anyone's immersion because I did not fully consider the mechanics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A Lawful Good Succubus Paladin still keeps their Chaotic Evil subtypes.

Because she is made of Chaos and Evil, but she can still change her personality.

I think @Snowfire is just devastated to learn that even the paragons of Good in this world a petty little tyrants and delusional murderers.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top