- Location
- United States
The next time we update it, just replace the alignment with "Viserys".
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
That's a two-way street, you know?
The Aristocrats
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- Location
- Germany
That is... ugh...
No, I'm not having that argument again.
I'll just walk away for a while.
Got an update to finish anyway.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
This reminds me that I need to see how many CL boosts I can combine to stack onto a Holy Word effect for high tier 'everything fucking dies' memes.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
When/if you feel like discussing it further I would welcome your thoughts either here or in PMs
- Location
- France
Changing the subject: I disagree with the idea that the Seven have been unfairly nerfed, but I do feel like the devils were letting us play on easy mode for a while there.
Now that we have the Hall of Mirrors it makes perfect sense for them not to Teleport in, set fires in SD and immediately flee (Divination dissuasion) but they could have been harming our kingdom, ruining our PR and sealing our efforts at almost no cost for years !
Meanwhile the Seven were under the same restrictions as all the other gods (it's easier to summon evil than good, gods begin rather detached from the setting, significant opposition and setting structure inconveniences held them back...) so their troubles isn't a huge problem for me. However before we could see their efforts and struggled against other actors, OOC they did feel as if they lacked agency.
Now that we have the Hall of Mirrors it makes perfect sense for them not to Teleport in, set fires in SD and immediately flee (Divination dissuasion) but they could have been harming our kingdom, ruining our PR and sealing our efforts at almost no cost for years !
Meanwhile the Seven were under the same restrictions as all the other gods (it's easier to summon evil than good, gods begin rather detached from the setting, significant opposition and setting structure inconveniences held them back...) so their troubles isn't a huge problem for me. However before we could see their efforts and struggled against other actors, OOC they did feel as if they lacked agency.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
I'd rather you actually do have this argument.
In PMs with DP, away from all those who'll ignite again from such a debate.
I think it would at the very least help DP with writing Viserys in moral quandries. You seem good at pointing flaws in character's motivation.
EDIT: DP'd
- Location
- France
Please noI'd rather you actually do have this argument.
In PMs with DP, away from all those who'll ignite again from such a debate.
I think it would at the very least help DP with writing Viserys in moral quandries. You seem good at pointing flaws in character's motivation.
EDIT: DP'd
Flaws in the logic of his portrayal, sure. But this isn't only about that !
- Location
- United States
I now have time to address this. I am uncomfortable with this because you've had angels working for the Seven for quite a while now, starting with Baelor the Blessed as the first concrete example. I am not a fan of the idea of changing that this late in the game, literally thousands of pages later. I don't see it as unreasonable for the Seven to have started out as not-so-insane and then slowly been warped by their followers, with the angels standing awkwardly on the sidelines.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Oh, please.
I have trust in Azel not being asshole enough to sneakily turn DP to thinking "Viserys is Evul, hurr-durr" when everyone is tired of this sort of debate, and without at least presenting thoughts to the thread.
But I distinctly remember Azel saying some things on this exact topic in the past, and DP agreeing there.
So, I would rather prefer Azel taking this to PMs with DP.
As would DP, with which he ninja'ed me.
- Location
- Germany
And that's just the thing.I'd rather you actually do have this argument.
In PMs with DP, away from all those who'll ignite again from such a debate.
I think it would at the very least help DP with writing Viserys in moral quandries. You seem good at pointing flaws in character's motivation.
EDIT: DP'd
I could break Viserys, Dany, Waymar and Lya with a fraction of the effort that was needed to break Melisandre.
That's why I'm innerly retching so often when they are being introspective.
- Location
- florida
@DragonParadox It makes perfect sense they would think that way. Its a very typical attitude on planetos.
O.k. So.
Some people *cough* *cough* have mentioned that Yrael should in some way approve or act like or sympathize with this dude because he was "just following orders".
Thats bullshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
Im not going to harp on the fact that he is executing citizens of a sovereign nation at the behest of a foreign power for theoretical crimes. Because thats too easy ;V.
Instead I will point out that the strong overpowering the weak is, and always has been a fundamental violation of what lawful good exists to do.
Law is the framework that goodness is built upon. They are one and the same (to Yrael).
To quote the excellent lawful good handbook "To the Lawful Good, Law is grain stored for famine relief, Law is the code that bars a feudal lord from infringing on certain rights of his subjects, Law defends the wrongly accused from the "justice" of the mindless mob."
They are not only not being lawful or good. They are subverting the existing (though completely laughable) legal system, and they are hurting people while doing so.
O.k. So.
Some people *cough* *cough* have mentioned that Yrael should in some way approve or act like or sympathize with this dude because he was "just following orders".
Thats bullshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
Im not going to harp on the fact that he is executing citizens of a sovereign nation at the behest of a foreign power for theoretical crimes. Because thats too easy ;V.
Instead I will point out that the strong overpowering the weak is, and always has been a fundamental violation of what lawful good exists to do.
Law is the framework that goodness is built upon. They are one and the same (to Yrael).
To quote the excellent lawful good handbook "To the Lawful Good, Law is grain stored for famine relief, Law is the code that bars a feudal lord from infringing on certain rights of his subjects, Law defends the wrongly accused from the "justice" of the mindless mob."
They are not only not being lawful or good. They are subverting the existing (though completely laughable) legal system, and they are hurting people while doing so.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Then go forth, break them to you full capability, and know that I won't care all that much to you being begetter of that.
This sort of debate is a very rare one since the time I joined the quest.
I'm actually interested in seeing what you and DP have in there, when it comes to our PCs' morals.
- Location
- France
Details or GTFO
More seriously, what do you mean by "break" ? Suffer from deep regrets and vow to do better in the future? Somehow start serving Mammon ?
They are still Lawful Good, they just no longer have the Good subtype.
- Location
- florida
*Shrug* I... dont see it as that much more powerful than his full attack honestly? And I am going to use "hot" Yrael anyway. But thank you for all the help @Goldfish @totall
Of course you can.
You made them.
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One of the problems is you introduced the concept of relative alignment very early in the quest.
Werebears, for example, are Lawful Good. And the ones Beyond the Wall were eating the weak and the helpless.
A "Lawful" Dothraki is a traditionalist savage raider.
So the notion that angels couldn't possibly be deluded into following Lucan's lunacy falls flat for me.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They were successful with Valyria, and we are currently establishing Valyria Mk II. Why should they destroy us? This time around, they may get a planet-spanning soul provider!
- Location
- Germany
They do loose quite a few abilities then though.
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- France
I am incapable of naming a single person or being whose beliefs couldn't be reduced to shattered wreckage by a sufficiently good debater. The best thing about logic and philosophy is that properly wielded, they can prove lots of contradictory things and create incompatible logical systems crafted from fundamental "axioms"
Edit: I am still interested in how Azel would do it, of course. Especially for Lya (because IMO Viserys absolutely could live with the realisation that he's been a hypocrite - he'd simply get depressed, but would still try to do better in the future).
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- United States
Yeah, I am not a fan of this situation at all.
The Seven started off with these angels, and for them to have it retconned now really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
/has met TalonofAnathrax on the internetI am incapable of naming a single person or being whose beliefs couldn't be reduced to shattered wreckage by a sufficiently good debater. The best thing about logic and philosophy is that properly wielded, they can prove lots of contradictory things and create incompatible logical systems crafted from fundamental "axioms"