A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[vsh]

Designed for no other purpose except bringing/evac of a sniper squad.
[] Voidspear Battle Taxi
- [x][Chassis] Heavy Jetbike
- [x] 3xOpen slots, 6 troops carrying capacity
- [][Heavy weapon] Refund 2 slots
- [][Ranged weapon] Needler Rifle
- [][Ranged weapon] Needler Rifle
- [][Other Wargear] Vehicle Holo-Field

 

[Karugus]

Have to strongly agree to disagree on the effectiveness of the gear and if it is worth it to add vehicle holo-field to actually get the full effect for a vehicle (there is a reason why we don't use infantry holo-fields on them if they were actually effect compared to the vehicle ones).

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We have WoG that they are somewhat effective. Even if they were entirely ineffective, I amend and reiterate you are paying 45 EP to protect and carry 15 EP of weaponry. It is literally the most extreme ratio of defensive investment to offensive investment I have seen proposed throughout the entirety of the thread. All of our squads are roughly 1-1 or favor offense. 6 EP to carry a 11 EP of weapons for the BS, 23 EP to carry 26 EP or 30 EP for the VS and BF.

Once you account for a dedicated troop transport, a BS squad+Steelswan is ~190 EP of firepower for 259 EP of defense. You still blow that out of the water with your proposed jetbikes.

Edit: the BS was the most offensively weighted squad so I compared it to the other two:
276 D vs. 336 O for BF. 446 D vs. 381 O after a Steelswan is included
138 D vs. 156 O for VS. 308 D vs. 201 O after a Steelswan is included.

You are spending way too much on protecting way too little. By cost these are quite literally the most protected individual soldiers we could field or consider fielding and have some of the worst offense. I cannot reiterate enough how bad of an idea it is to just reflexively shove defenses on even the cheapest and most disposable vehicle. These things might as well drop the weapons cause they are not there to skirmish, or to kill the enemy, they are there to charge in and just tarpit people because they sure as hell aren't going to do anything offensively to justify their cost.

 

[DarkLight140]

I like the concept of a fast anti-vehicle weapons carrier, but the heavy jetbike is too small to put any defenses on, which to me sort of means that putting any vehicle-scale exotic weapons on it would be crazy- the EP costs for those get high really fast so we don't want to put our exotics-powered guns on platforms that die easy. The speeder can hold a holo-field, though!

[ ] Starlancer Weapons Carrier (161 EP, 20 starcrystals)
-[] Speeder (37 EP)
-[] Trade in 1 Heavy slot for 2 system slots, 2 Ranged slots for 1 system slot, 6 system slots for 1 Vehicle slot
-[] Weapons: 1 Starlance (100 EP, 20 starcrystals)
-[] Defense: Holo-Field (18 EP)
-[] Crew Equipment: 3 Wraithweave Brigantine (6 EP)

Edit: Fixed crew number to 3. It turns out that the speeder base cost is 37 EP which is exactly identical to a heavy jetbike, if my math is right? Seems weird, would appreciate someone confirming it.

 

[Skjadir]

We have WoG that they are somewhat effective. Even if they were entirely ineffective, I amend and reiterate you are paying 45 EP to protect and carry 15 EP of weaponry. It is literally the most extreme ratio of defensive investment to offensive investment I have seen proposed throughout the entirety of the thread. All of our squads are roughly 1-1 or favor offense. 6 EP to carry a 11 EP of weapons for the BS, 23 EP to carry 26 EP or 30 EP for the VS and BF.

Once you account for a dedicated troop transport, a BS squad+Steelswan is 190 EP of firepower for 259 EP of defense. You still blow that out of the water with your proposed jetbikes.

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And here is the difference in perspective.

I am paying 18EP to protect 45EP.

Because we aren't paying the bike cost and the armor for the rider to protect the bike.
We pay 21 to carry 18EP of weapon for the bike, 6 EP to keep the driver alive. -> 45 EP.

I then pay 18EP to keep that 45 EP investment we already made alive for long and give them better side capabilities as it makes them better scouts due to better stealth capabilities (i have doubt the infantry version can turn the vehicle invisible and off sensors as example).

 

[Karugus]

I like the concept of a fast anti-vehicle weapons carrier, but the heavy jetbike is too small to put any defenses on, which to me sort of means that putting any vehicle-scale exotic weapons on it would be crazy- the EP costs for those get high really fast. The speeder can hold a holo-field, though! No idea how many crew a speeder has so I guessed 2.

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This would be a fairly nice of way of differentiating the Star Flare from the Bright Talon. But we don't actually have all that many Star Flares. I actually really like the concept, I just don't think it's a current priority.

And here is the difference in perspective.

I am paying 18EP to protect 45EP.

Because we aren't paying the bike cost and the armor for the rider to protect the bike.
We pay 21 to carry 18EP of weapon for the bike, 6 EP to keep the driver alive. -> 45 EP.

I then pay 18EP to keep that 45 EP investment we already made alive for long and give them better side capabilities as it makes them better scouts due to better stealth capabilities (i have doubt the infantry version can turn the vehicle invisible and off sensors as example).

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Please don't do this. I have wasted far too long having to illustrate that these are actively worse than the militia bikes as far as I'm concerned. If you try to change the numbers because 'it's a wholistic weapon system the holofield is wholly separate from but protects' I guarantee I'll find the numbers for everything else make this look so much worse. This is just shifting goalposts and it's not helping your case.

Like, by this logic I paid 3 EP to protect 14 EP worth of soldier and gun. 17 EP to protect 36 EP of soldier and gun. Etc. Rewriting the equation to look pretty doesn't change the fact you are paying way more for way less than any other soldier we've fielded.

Edit: I take that back, the Militia bike is 22 EP to carry a 2 EP gun. I knew there was a reason I'm vehemently against your design. It's a crypto militia bike trying to avoid my wrath by pretending.

 

[Skjadir]

Please don't do this. I have wasted far too long having to illustrate that these are actively worse than the militia bikes as far as I'm concerned. If you try to change the numbers because 'it's a wholistic system the holofield is wholly apart of' I guarantee I'll find the numbers for everything else make this look so much worse. This is just shifting goalposts and it's not helping your case.

Like, by this logic I paid 3 EP to protect 14 EP worth of soldier and gun. 17 EP to protect 36 EP of soldier and gun. Etc. Rewriting the equation to look pretty doesn't change the fact you are paying way more for way less than any other soldier we've fielded.

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Here is the thing, I fully expect the difference between an infantry holo-field and a vehicle one to be quite large.
The scale of needs to cover a single infantry member to needs to cover something that can carry the whole 12 squad + has some extra weapons is quite large.

Yes I do get it you want to go max this as killy as possible for as cheap.
I just think it is flattout a mistake, that will result in us having to replace a lot more gear due to damage/destruction.

 

[vsh]

We need:
- troop transports for our three types of squads
- antitank weapon platform
- antichaff weapon platform
- main battle tank
- superheavy killer
- scout jetbike

I think it comes down to 7-8 vehicles together.

We'd also want artillery but we don't have guns for it.

 

[dgr11897]

We'd also want artillery but we don't have guns for it.

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We could probably use an orbital/airborn Fatecaster platform to fill that role, sort of.

Fatecasters strike me as being pretty much the Holy Grail when it comes to precision orbital bombardment. The projectiles themselves are simple and high speed and benefit greatly from the boost they'd receive from orbital descent, but are guided and high precision thanks to the psy-scope systems in the weapon.

 

[Karugus]

Here is the thing, I fully expect the difference between an infantry holo-field and a vehicle one to be quite large.
The scale of needs to cover a single infantry member to needs to cover something that can carry the whole 12 squad + has some extra weapons is quite large.

Yes I do get it you want to go max this as killy as possible for as cheap.
I just think it is flattout a mistake, that will result in us having to replace a lot more gear due to damage/destruction.

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I mean, these things are replaceable. We have 352 militia jetbikes in unused detachments. Probably that again in militia attachments. And while yes, I do think an infantry holo-field is notably weaker, I genuinely don't think a small jetbike needs the same scale of holo-field that a superheavy tank does. And that's what it would get.

Keep in mind, the belt holo-field I was screaming about was just flat out worse than the armor holo-field, and our 'infantry' gravity shield is a bloated and wasteful monstrosity compared to what it could be once we miniaturize the tech. From my perspective, why pay for the holo-field generator rated for a 70+ ton warmachine when it's a dude and his bike that probably tops out around ~400-500kg?

We'd also want artillery but we don't have guns for it.

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Fatecasters potentially. We probably will develop a plasma shell for the bigger cannons sooner or later. There's also various shades of missile launchers that we have yet to develop. Give it time and we'll get there.

 

[DarkLight140]

We need:
- troop transports for our three types of squads
- antitank weapon platform
- antichaff weapon platform
- main battle tank
- superheavy killer
- scout jetbike

I think it comes down to 7-8 vehicles together.

We'd also want artillery but we don't have guns for it.

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Yeah, our Steward AP is going to be in extremely high demand in the coming turns since it's used for all military design actions. Not only do we need another few vehicle designs at 1 AP each, we need HQ designs at 1 AP, Elites designs at 1 AP, probably a half-dozen starship designs at 4 AP each, 2-3 small craft designs at an unknown number of AP each (guessing 1 or 2 per), and even worse- detachments have to be put together at 1 AP per formation type we'd like to organize!

And we have to pace all of this so that it matches our technology rollout. Next turn we can develop melta, monofilament, and maybe grav weapons to be included on our designs, but those compete for AP with everything else in Bonesinger and there is a lot of important stuff in Bonesinger. We might actively want to delay, say, our Elites choices until we have greater weapon variety to choose from. And based on grav weapon rollout, plasma weapons and conversion field defenses are 2-4 turns out, maybe longer, with haywire and meson trailing after that, so anything using those designs is going to be much delayed.

 

[Skjadir]

My current plan:

[] Adamant Wind
-[] Grav-Barge
-[] Attached Transport
-[] Trade in for slots: 1 Vehicle, 1Heavy : +6
-[] Infantry Capacity (Open Top): 6 slots -> 12+1=13 Capacity
-[] Defense 2+6 slots:
--[] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shieldx2
-[] Weapon:3xTwin Linked Spike Rifle
-[] Crew is in VGA armor
Baseline cost ~219-220 EP (93EP+baseline cost)

Edit2: alternative name for Karugus, so it doesn't take his wanted HQ squad name

[X] Mirage
-[X] Grav-Barge
-[X] Attached Transport
-[X] Trade in for slots: 1 Vehicle, 1Heavy : +6
-[X] Infantry Capacity (Open Top): 6 slots -> 12+1=13 Capacity
-[X] Defense 2+6 slots:
--[X] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shieldx2
-[X] Weapon:3xTwin Linked Spike Rifle
Baseline cost ~219-220 EP (93EP+baseline cost)

[X] Triplet Needler Jetbike
-[X] Jetbike
-[X] Trade in 1 system slot for Ranged slot
-[X] Weapons: Twin Linked Needler Riflesx3
-[X] Defense: Holo-Field -2 system slots
Baseline cost 57Ep, 36 EP if we replace militia bikes.+6 For VGA armor.
Edit: Well looks like the voting starts now.

Overall, attached Assault Barge that can get our troops into combat and also out.
Double grav-shields + Holo-Fields should keep one alive for some time even while getting shot at (a lot).
But that happens when part of the job is to help get the Assault troops to the target faster.

Jetbikes with 3 weapons on it, Holo-Field so it can act as a good scout due to Stealth capabilities and overall speed.
Also, likely at least a pretty decent flanker against most Infantry that isn't in really heavy armor (so good chunk of ork infantry and against pretty much all eldar infantry).
Vehicles are thing these should avoid (would need a weapon that uses more than EP to change that).

Yeah, our Steward AP is going to be in extremely high demand in the coming turns since it's used for all military design actions. Not only do we need another few vehicle designs at 1 AP each, we need HQ designs at 1 AP, Elites designs at 1 AP, probably a half-dozen starship designs at 4 AP each, 2-3 small craft designs at an unknown number of AP each (guessing 1 or 2 per),

And we have to pace all of this so that it matches our technology rollout. Next turn we can develop melta, monofilament, and maybe grav weapons to be included on our designs, but those compete for AP with everything else in Bonesinger and there is a lot of important stuff in Bonesinger. We might actively want to delay, say, our Elites choices until we have greater weapon variety to choose from. And based on grav weapon rollout, plasma weapons and conversion field defenses are 2-4 turns out, maybe longer, with haywire and meson trailing after that, so anything using those designs is going to be much delayed.

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Next turn, i think almost all of our steward AP go by necessity into not starving to death and expanding our food production.

 

[Karugus]

[X] Razorwind Jetbike
-[X] Jetbike
-[X] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[X] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles
-[X] Crew Equipment: Void Guard Warsuit
[X] Steelswan Troop Barge
-[X] Grav Barge
-[X] Trade in mounts: -1 Vehicle, + 3 Ranged (+3)
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 1x Grav Shield
-[X] Troop Capacity: 6x Open Topped, 13 capacity
-[X] Crew Equipment: 3x Void Guard Warsuits
-[X] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, 3 Twin Linked Needler Rifles (one forward two flanking)

51 EP per, 306 per Squad, 180 EP using existing militia bikes for the Razorwind
220 EP per, 96 EP using Attack Barges for the Steelswan.

I will see the Militia Jetbike destroyed or I will see this Craftworld turn to ash around me.

Yeah, our Steward AP is going to be in extremely high demand in the coming turns since it's used for all military design actions. Not only do we need another few vehicle designs at 1 AP each, we need HQ designs at 1 AP, Elites designs at 1 AP, probably a half-dozen starship designs at 4 AP each, 2-3 small craft designs at an unknown number of AP each (guessing 1 or 2 per), and even worse- detachments have to be put together at 1 AP per formation type we'd like to organize!

And we have to pace all of this so that it matches our technology rollout. Next turn we can develop melta, monofilament, and maybe grav weapons to be included on our designs, but those compete for AP with everything else in Bonesinger and there is a lot of important stuff in Bonesinger. We might actively want to delay, say, our Elites choices until we have greater weapon variety to choose from. And based on grav weapon rollout, plasma weapons and conversion field defenses are 2-4 turns out, maybe longer, with haywire and meson trailing after that, so anything using those designs is going to be much delayed.

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My current thinking is we swap out Assault or Line detachments and when we do develop our Elites better we stick them in the light support detachments as forces the Warhost can attach and assign on an as needed basis.

 

[dgr11897]

[X] Razorwind Jetbike
[X] Steelswan Troop Barge

 

[DarkLight140]

-[X] Attached Assault Barge
--[X] Grav-Barge
--[X] Attached Transport
--[X] Trade in for slots: 1 Vehicle, 1Heavy : +6
--[X] Infantry Capacity (Open Top): 6 slots -> 12+1=13 Capacity
--[X] Defense 2+6 slots:
---[X] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shieldx2
--[X] Weapon:3xTwin Linked Spike Rifle
Baseline cost ~219-220 EP (93EP+baseline cost)

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This needs a catchy name, friend. It was one thing in the design phase, but we're in voting now; you can't just vote for a vehicle that doesn't have a catchy name.

Next turn, i think almost all of our steward AP go by necessity into not starving to death and expanding our food production.

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I hope not, we need to be unfucking the military yesterday. Hopefully we can keep at least half of our steward AP focused on the military rollout- a detachment design using the new stuff is the absolute minimum, but a second starship design is pretty close to essential since getting holofields on our ships will make a huge difference in survivability and we have a ton of refitting to do.

 

[Skjadir]

I will see the Militia Jetbike destroyed or I will see this Craftworld turn to ash around me.

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For the baseline militia Jetbike (and the resulting squad) yeah, we can agree on that.
21 EP to carry 1 person with 1 EP and 2EP weapon is just bad.

And needs to be replaced asap, by something that at least makes use of both baseline weapon slots.

I hope not, we need to be unfucking the military yesterday. Hopefully we can keep at least half of our steward AP focused on the military rollout- a detachment design using the new stuff is the absolute minimum, but a second starship design is pretty close to essential since getting holofields on our ships will make a huge difference in survivability and we have a ton of refitting to do.

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Starships should get prio because the big fight will for the most part happen in the void and not on the ground, as they need to get through our fleet to land troops.

 

[gale]

[X] Steelswan Troop Barge
-[X] Grav Barge
-[X] Trade in mounts: -1 Vehicle, + 3 Ranged (+3)
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 1x Grav Shield
-[X] Troop Capacity: 6x Open Topped, 13 capacity
-[X] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, 3 Twin Linked Needler Rifles (one forward two flanking)

 

[Skjadir]

This needs a catchy name, friend. It was one thing in the design phase, but we're in voting now; you can't just vote for a vehicle that doesn't have a catchy name.

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If you have ideas for nice names say them, because i am horrible with them.
And go mostly with easy to remember stuff, that also informs you either about its main role or weaponry.

 

[Karugus]

Starships should get prio because the big fight will for the most part happen in the void and not on the ground, as they need to get through our fleet to land troops.

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Not technically true, the Craftworld has plenty of Webway gates and Biel-Tan can navigate it just as well as us. There will almost certainly be some kind of void battle, but they probably aren't going to use ships to land troops. This is why I consider it really important we spend some AP sending ships to scout the Webway around us.

 

[Skjadir]

Not technically true, the Craftworld has plenty of Webway gates and Biel-Tan can navigate it just as well as us. There will almost certainly be some kind of void battle, but they probably aren't going to use ships to land troops. This is why I consider it really important we spend some AP sending ships to scout the Webway around us.

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I mean i plan at least throwing 1 forge AP at the army, the other potentially going to the ships to help refit/repair stuff fast so we have more to hold against what ever nasty shit Biel-Tan throws at us (and what dominion era eldar weaponry is on these ships).

 

[DarkLight140]

If you have ideas for nice names say them, because i am horrible with them.
And go mostly with easy to remember stuff, that also informs you either about its main role or weaponry.

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If you want to go with something directly reflecting its role, name it something that references toughness because the whole selling point of your design over Karugus' is that it has two grav shields and thus is better at protecting its troops. No one actually cares about the transport's guns because we have so much murder on our infantry and the transport is open-topped to use their guns instead.

Or you could go with the Warhammer Fantasy High Elf reference and call it the Tiranoc because they have chariot units and this is as chariot-like as we're likely to see, unless one of the open-topped transport speeder designs gets voted for at some point.

 

[Karugus]

If you have ideas for nice names say them, because i am horrible with them.
And go mostly with easy to remember stuff, that also informs you either about its main role or weaponry.

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A lot of Eldar vehicles are named after a mundane animal or weather/darkness. Armadillo would be a pretty banal name but on point name for the troop transport, but so is Scorpion and Hornet.

As for the Jetbike, it's light, it's fast, it's annoying but non-threatening I call it the Hummingbird.

With my names, I try to keep in mind typical Craftworld naming conventions but add a descriptor that typically evokes that the noun was crafted/honed given our Vaulish themes. Voidspears aside at least... but Eldar throw Void in front of anything and everything.

I mean i plan at least throwing 1 forge AP at the army, the other potentially going to the ships to help refit/repair stuff fast so we have more to hold against what ever nasty shit Biel-Tan throws at us (and what dominion era eldar weaponry is on these ships).

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I'm going to be blunt. We're not going to get anywhere with just 1 VAP. And repairing our Brigs should only be ~4 AP and they're the ones we're really concerned about. We only have 24 damaged Carracks too, and they're probably the best ship we have against our fellow Eldar. Spend some BAP on ships, but I really wouldn't panic over this. Remember, whatever they might have, we're probably going to have Serpent that Strikes from the Shadows with no Warning and they won't.

I seriously doubt Arach-Qin will withhold the SOV they promised us once we tell them about Biel-Tan when we've thrown a lot of resources at immediately repairing their ships and will probably go above the deal to start repairing their shipyard.

 

[DarkLight140]

Oh, if we could get a Crew Equipment line added to the vehicle design votes that would be great. Unless specified it is probably going to be assumed by default that the crew are all just wearing wraithweave brigantine and that is definitely not what is being gone for in some cases here. Vehicle pilots wearing heavy armor is a pretty unintuitive addition to the costs and needs to be part of the vehicle vote block if it's the intention.

 

[Karnax626]

[X] Razorwind Jetbike
[] Steelswan Troop Barge

I'm happy with these. As far as getting more Warrior AP goes our fellow Craftworlds might be able to help with that. It'd be great if one of them had the Martial aspect, but anything non-Peaceful should allow them to advise us on better practices.
EDIT: Switching to Mirage
[X] Mirage

 

[Skjadir]

If you want to go with something directly reflecting its role, name it something that references toughness because the whole selling point of your design over Karugus' is that it has two grav shields and thus is better at protecting its troops. No one actually cares about the transport's guns because we have so much murder on our infantry and the transport is open-topped to use their guns instead.

Or you could go with the Warhammer Fantasy High Elf reference and call it the Tiranoc because they have chariot units and this is as chariot-like as we're likely to see, unless one of the open-topped transport speeder designs gets voted for at some point.

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I mean, I could go with my likely pretty typical (?) german naming sense and either name the transport and jetbike after a big cat (but feel these more for our tanks).

Or just write out the purpose and then make an acronym out of it that nobody can say.

A lot of Eldar vehicles are named after a mundane animal or weather/darkness. Armadillo would be a pretty banal name but on point name for the troop transport, but so is Scorpion and Hornet.

As for the Jetbike, it's light, it's fast, it's annoying but non-threatening I call it the Hummingbird.

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Armadillo doesn't work because the grav-barge doesn't really have armor at all, It's why I am using the two grav shields to compensate for that because shots that get through likely do a lot of damage to it.

Edit. I think i will go with some kind of porcupine for the assault barge, because all that infantry in that thing being able to shoot out makes is pretty nasty to close in on.

Hummingbird kind of works, but I think I go with some kind of bat because my jetbikes should have quite good stealth capabilities or something else stealth/camouflage related.

 

[DarkLight140]

stuff

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Look, I'm going to bed in about ten minutes. If you have a reasonably cool name by then I'm voting for your assault barge, because I want two grav shields, and Karugus' bike design, because having a heavy weapon matters. If you don't have a cool name by then I'll vote in the morning and hope you've come up with something. But we can't have a craftworld that doesn't have sufficiently cool names, this is essential.

If you need something functional, Adamant Wind is generally descriptive of what it does and fits the sort of adjectivenoun pattern established by our infantry squad names. Not saying it's the best, but it would work.