A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[Karugus]

Developing what amounts to firing slits is something you will probably think of soon, since it's mostly a matter of just having the idea; this would probably be a "X troops can fire out per point" type of equipment. Refitting existing stock can happen, yes; they have to be in your stockpile though (the easiest way to do this is building enough for a Detachment or two, swapping their equipment with a Steward action, and then refitting the returned bikes and repeating the process.)

Click to shrink...

Okay, in that case I could actually see us wanting a light grav APC when the time comes. Thanks for explaining the process to refit a detachment, I think being able to swap detachment equipment for several detachments with Steward AP is going to make this a lot more straightforward.

[ ] Razorwind Jetbike
-[] Jetbike
-[] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[] Weapons: 1 Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles

Given we can up gun the militia jetbikes, here's what I'd like to see. Going off of TT, bike troopers are significantly tougher and harder to kill than their dismounted equivalents (people like to joke a Space Marine on a bike is a faster Terminator), so give the rider VG, where the Holo-Field still partially works (or if people want to really make up for the lack of vehicle defenses an Ithilmar) and we've still got a fast attack squad that can engage light infantry, heavier infantry, and light to medium enemy armor. If we stick with VG it's actually pretty affordable at 51 per, 306 for a squad, in exchange for a squad with 6 heavy weapons and 12 infantry rifles. An Ithilmar version is only 408 EP. Only 180 EP if we can recycle militia bikes for the VA version and 282 EP for the Ithilmar version.

Since we can refit existing detachments in bulk, and that we can possibly get quick access to a lot of the equipment in the unused detachments we have lying around by 'refitting' them into largely hollow administrative detachments. I really have to insist that we try to make our designs affordable. We spent our luxury income on the infantry and have to live with that for now, but we can still achieve fairly broad roll outs so long as we make designs that are practical and relatively conservative (I'm looking at you multiple grav-shields). And yes, this means that we should probably really design a grav barge dedicated transport we can convert the Attack Barge into, at least consider a light grav combat vehicle to convert the NeedleStorm into (It just really needs some supporting weapons for it's already great main gun and the defenses), or a better combat jetbike (*innocently whistles*). RIP skimmer transport memes (though it would still be a very nice and relatively cheap design).

Edit: As for what detachments we should probably refit first, probably the HG Line detachments. They have a decent amount of useful kit (and we can possibly do a separate Steward action to pull some militia gear like Assault Barges out of the unused militia detachments)

 

[Alectai]

I'm generally willing to defer to Karugus when it comes to unit makeup, as long as there's no giant screaming red flags in there. So I'll trust his judgement.

 

[dgr11897]

So, we're probably going to make a new Jetbike and a transport for our troops?

Sounds good, though I'm somewhat disappointed it doesn't look like we're going to be designing a heavy grav vehicle...

 

[Karugus]

[ ] Razorwind Jetbike
-[] Jetbike
-[] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles
EP 51 per, 306 per Squad, 180 EP using existing militia bikes
[ ] Ironstorm Grav-Tank
-[] Light Grav Vehicle
-[] Trade in for mounts: 2 Ranged, 1 Vehicle, -8
-[] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 2x Grav Shields
-[] Weapons: 1 Fateshredder Cannon, (V) Las-cannon , Twin Linked Needler Rifles
346 EP and 3 Psy-scopes per, 110 EP and no exotics using NeedleStorms
[] Steelswan Troop Barge
-[] Grav Barge
-[] Trade in mounts: Vehicle->2x Heavy->4x Ranged
-[] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 1x Grav Shield
-[] Troop Capacity: 6x Open Topped, 13 capacity
-[] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, 3 Twin Linked Needler Rifles (one forward two flanking)
220 EP per, 96 EP using Attack Barges.

The Razorwind is going to a really solid and flexible fast attacker, the Ironstorm is ultimately a Falcon grav tank equivalent using the NeedleStorm, it's got great anti-infantry, great defenses and capable anti-armor firepower. . It's meant to just brawl with anything and everything. The Steelswan is just a relatively cheap Grav-Barge dedicated transport that carries some ranged anti-tank so that Blazingswords aren't too load bearing and a lot of needlers because we don't want to get drowned in GEQ trying to swarm us. You should vote for it because a dedicated transport makes my job a lot easier and I sacrificed my gotta go fast skimmer dreams on the altar of practicality. It would have been so cool.

So, we're probably going to make a new Jetbike and a transport for our troops?

Sounds good, though I'm somewhat disappointed it doesn't look like we're going to be designing a heavy grav vehicle...

Click to shrink...

Soon. We must be reasonable and practical because Vaul tests our moderation now after we have demonstrated our skill as craftsmen. When we design the heavy grav vehicle he will test our vision as artisans.

 

[dgr11897]

So, @Karugus We now have 3 designs, that we need to hone down to two, as the time to vote has come. So, uh, which two are we making this turn?

 

[Alectai]

I'd say Razorwind and Ironstorm. Technically, our shitty transports can still make do in the short term, but having a Jetbike that punches up that hard is very appealing.

That being said, there's a good argument to be made that "The value of slightly better jetbikes in the immediate future is well beneath actual tanks and IFVs".

 

[Karugus]

So, @Karugus We now have 3 designs, that we need to hone down to two, as the time to vote has come. So, uh, which two are we making this turn?

Click to shrink...

Asking someone to choose which 2 of their 3 children get to live is cruel and unusual punishment

The Steelswan (or any dedicated troop transport) really makes detachment compositions easier and it's a relatively cheap way of better protecting our shiny new infantry and getting them to where they can inflict the most damage and avoid the most tarpits. The Ironstorm was actually a product of my tired mind and isn't a IFV/MBT hybrid like the Falcon Tank... it's just a MBT! That being said, it does mount two full size vehicle weapons geared for slaughtering any and all infantry or outgunning anything not a superheavy or exotic weapon. The Razorwind is a lot of firepower, I don't know if the Spike Cannon is closer to an autocannon or an anti-tank weapon but it basically means each jetbike squad is an extra strength infantry squad in firepower, capable of engaging light vehicles, heavy infantry or hordes (which are the kind of threat I'm most worried about*).

I lean towards the Ironstorm being the least immediately important- a Voidspear squad is roughly two Fateshredders worth of firepower and we would have some anti-armor in all the spike cannons I'm sprinkling throughout the other vehicle options. It technically can carry another two heavy weapons too, which I'm hemming and hawing over. 16 SC for a pair of twin-linked starcarvers (take that Falcon and your twin-linked shuriken catapults) isn't bad, but that's 60 EP per detachment when we want to be making a fair few of them. If we hold off on the Ironstorm we might be a in position to afford a tank with more firepower down the road, for instance a Fateshredder+Starlance would let us convert both Blazestars and Needlestorms into the same MBT without any waste (I'm assuming weapons taken off during a vehicle refit have the EP lost and the exotics refunded but they could just sit in the stockpile).

Normally, I think there's valid reasons that a vehicle shouldn't carry both main anti-armor and anti-vehicle guns to avoid investing in roles the tank can't do both of at the same time. But Fatecasters can explicitly fire heavily off bore, which means the downtime of the Fateshredder while the Starlance is engaging a more armored target should be minimal.

TLDR: The Ironstorm is solid, but it could be better (and there are really good reasons to make it better)- I'm just not sure we can afford to roll it out at it's best right now. Comparatively, the Razorwind and Steelswan have less reasons to get exotics and are thus about as good as they are ever going to get.

*We might be carrying automatic las cannons, homing HMGs, or a dozen power mauls... but there's still only so many attacks per model even if the attacks are incredibly lethal. Countering swarms of cheap dudes in t-shirts is imo as much the Forgefire's role as it is being melee troops as the best counter to our insane shooting potential is to pin us in melee, and the best melee counter to our assault troops with their mauls is to probably swarm them with more dudes than they can possibly kill in melee- hence them doubling as heavy weapon anti-chaff squads.

 

[Alectai]

So, Steelswan and Razorwind? Looks doable to me.

 

[dgr11897]

Dumb/genius idea
Give our bike riders, or maybe just bike squad leaders, power mauls with which to play high speed Polo with enemy heads.

 

[Mechanis]

I was looking through the proposals thus far and noticed that a great many of them seemed to be significantly exceeding the slot limits of the respective platforms (I saw several Jetbikes with both defensive systems, for a start). Just to make certain, I checked the rules post and discovered that SV had eaten one of my table columns. Specifically the one detailing the slot cost for equipment. So! This has now been fixed, and I am adding a

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2 hour Moratorium ​

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from this post, so proposals can be reviewed. Note that any votes prior to this post will not be considered.

 

[dgr11897]

[ ] Two gun Mcgee
-[] Heavy Grav-Tank
-[] Defense 10 slots:
--[] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shield x3
-[] Weapons:
--[] Superheavy: 2 Weapons, Both Starlances
--[] Vehicle:0 Weapons All reduced to points
--[] Heavy: 1 Weapon, 1 reduced to systems points, Starcarver
--[] Ranged: 2 Weapons, flamers

I don't know why I put this together, but it's fun. And it serves as an exploration of the further reaches of the possibilities available to us. Dual starlances and a 3 stacked grav shield very easily tell you exactly what this vehicle is all about. It wants to be hunting large enemy units. In theory you could get rid of the starcarver for more flamers to reduce exotics cost. Also I haven't done the math for how expensive this thing would be besides VERY.

 

[Karugus]

Revised list after the announcement:
[ ] Razorwind Jetbike
-[] Jetbike
-[] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles
EP 51 per, 306 per Squad, 180 EP using existing militia bikes
[ ] Ironstorm Grav-Tank
-[] Light Grav Vehicle
-[] Trade in for mounts: +1 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -4
-[] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 2x Grav Shields
-[] Weapons: 1 Fateshredder Cannon, 1 (V) Las-cannon , 1 Heavy Needler
344 EP and 3 Psy-scopes per, 108 EP and no exotics using NeedleStorms
[] Steelswan Troop Barge
-[] Grav Barge
-[] Trade in mounts: -1 Vehicle, + 3 Ranged (+3)
-[] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 1x Grav Shield
-[] Troop Capacity: 6x Open Topped, 13 capacity
-[] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, 3 Twin Linked Needler Rifles (one forward two flanking)
220 EP per, 96 EP using Attack Barges.

The Steelswan and Razorwind basically got out of the change intact, the Ironstorm just exchanged it's twinlinked needler rifles for a heavy needler, possibly an upgrade- I just wanted to experiment with twin linking some because it's such a common thing in 40k vehicles and was modeling it off the Falcon.

I'd say Razorwind and Ironstorm. Technically, our shitty transports can still make do in the short term, but having a Jetbike that punches up that hard is very appealing.

That being said, there's a good argument to be made that "The value of slightly better jetbikes in the immediate future is well beneath actual tanks and IFVs".

Click to shrink...

The problem with Razorwind+Ironstorm is my initial Ironstorm was illegal and it can't actually carry troops and the second vehicle mount so we'd either run into the 3 attack barge per detachment problem, only have 3 infantry squads (including HQ) in any detachment, footslog, or leave the NeedleStorm intact (which obviously defeats some of the point of the Ironstorm).

We could rejigger things for an IFV, but at that point the slot requirements for 2x Grav shields+ a Holo-Field and 7 enclosed troop compartments means it's dropping weapon mounts (not that the Needlestorm used them) and that it will realistically never get firing ports and get upgunned.

I don't know why I put this together, but it's fun. And it serves as an exploration of the further reaches of the possibilities available to us. Dual starlances and a 3 stacked grav shield very easily tell you exactly what this vehicle is all about. It wants to be hunting large enemy units. In theory you could get rid of the starcarver for more flamers to reduce exotics cost. Also I haven't done the math for how expensive this thing would be besides VERY.

Click to shrink...

I'll be real, I think Eldar Grav-Tanks look so much cooler with a pair of primary guns in their turrets so this is probably close to what I'd go for. Possibly 1 Starlance+Fatesheer to save on SC and leverage our Psy-scopes more. The Baneblade can keep it's 11 barrels of hell, we can make it and the Shadowsword look pathetic at the same time with our cool flying tanks.

 

[dgr11897]

I'll be real, I think Eldar Grav-Tanks look so much cooler with a pair of primary turret guns so this is probably close to what I'd go for. Possibly 1 Starlance+Fatesheer to save on SC and leverage our Psy-scopes more. The Baneblade can keep it's 11 barrels of hell, we can make it and the Shadowsword look pathetic at the same time with our cool flying tanks.

Click to shrink...

The reason I went for 2 starlances is because they have high rate of fire so I thought that by pairing them together you could make the firerate even higher by alternating which one is firing. This is also why I went for Starlance over Starblade. Since Starblades trade all their rate of fire for Damage.

However yeah, fatesheer is probably much more practical to have on this, given Fatecaster weapon's ability to fire off-bore and that these are superheavies and so might have to be mounted in a fixed position as opposed to a turret.

 

[Skjadir]

Oh boy. well lets see if i can make adjustments.

[ ] Attached Assault Barge
-[] Grav-Barge
-[] Attached Transport
-[] Trade in for slots: 1 Vehicle, 1Heavy : +6
-[] Infantry Capacity (Open Top): 6 slots -> 12+1=13 Capacity
-[] Defense 2+6 slots:
--[] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shieldx2
-[] Weapon:3xTwin Linked Spike Rifle

I think this works.
Going with 2 Grav shields because I expected these transport to come under some heavy fire
And have to disagree with Karagus about that being too expensive, considering how expensive some of the troops we stuff into them are (Assault units that wants to get close for 612 EP)
Likely price of this is at around ~219 EP per.


[ ] Attached Starcarver IFV
-[] Light Grav-Vehicle
-[] Attached Transport
-[] Trade in for slots: 1 Vehicle, 1 Heavy:+6
-[] Infantry Capacity (Enclosed): 13 slots -> 13 Capacity
-[] Defense 5 slots:
--[] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[] Weapon: Starcarver

Just can't fit 2 Grav-Shield into this without making it Open Top.

Edit.
Now getting a look at some of the other propose vehicles most look nice (even if i disagree on the 1 Grav-shield is enough on a transporter that is going to get shot at a lot).
The Razorwind Jetbike look a bit over gunnend as it has no defense, which makes me disinclined to build or upgrade them because they just get shot to pieces.

Here have by more defensive version:
[ ] Needle bike Jetbike
-[] Jetbike
-[] Trade in 1 system slot for Ranged slot
-[] Weapons: Twin Linked Needler Riflesx3
-[] Defense: Holo-Field -2 system slots
21+18+18=57EP
Only 6 Ep more, but it has its own Holo-Field for some protection and much better stealth capabilities.

 

[Karugus]

The reason I went for 2 starlances is because they have high rate of fire so I thought that by pairing them together you could make the firerate even higher by alternating which one is firing. This is also why I went for Starlance over Starblade. Since Starblades trade all their rate of fire for Damage.

However yeah, fatesheer is probably much more practical to have on this, given Fatecaster weapon's ability to fire off-bore and that these are superheavies and so might have to be mounted in a fixed position as opposed to a turret.

Click to shrink...

I'm honestly in agreement that the Starlance is probably a better pick most of the time than the Starblade given how like a super heavy is to be outnumbered, especially since the Fatesheer seems to cover the 'gutting a single enemy super heavy role' as well while cheaper in EP and exotics. The only Eldar Super Heavy with two main guns pairs them in the turret rather than a hull mount so I don't think that's how they'd be installed but it's a good point that a fixed Fatesheer cannon still has a decent angle of fire.

And to answer the unspoken question, it costs 842 EP and 98 SC before the base chassis price is factored in. The Fatesheer alternative costs 792 EP 53 SC and 4 Psy-Scopes by comparison. It's a viable design. Expensive, but it's basically just a superior and more expensive version of the canon Scorpion super heavy tank. The Fatesheer halves that firepower in exchange for a homing cannon that apparently one shots Knight Titans, probably a bit more anti-super heavy effectiveness at the expense of it's ability to melt swarms of weaker vehicles. I'm hoping we can develop munitions for the heavier Fatecaster weapons (or already have them) so that they can throw out pie plates of their own or carry exotic effects. Plasma weapons would probably be a good place to look for 'high explosive shells' for this thing if what I can recall about Eldar explosives is accurate.

You also got me looking at canon Eldar Engines of Vaul and apparently there's a super heavy tank that's a mobile Webway portal called a Wraithgate, so that's sure as hell going on my christmas list.

 

[DarkLight140]

[ ] Razorwind Jetbike
-[] Jetbike
-[] Trade in for mounts: 1 Heavy -3
-[] Weapons: 1 (H) Spike Cannon, Twin Linked Needler Rifles
EP 51 per, 306 per Squad, 180 EP using existing militia bikes

Click to shrink...

I loathe this design because it's mechanically optimal while efficiently recycling the junk we have lying around, and that means we're going to end up with swarms of normal jetbikes as our standard unit instead of moving to a heavy jetbike standard instead.

 

[Skjadir]

I loathe this design because it's mechanically optimal while efficiently recycling the junk we have lying around, and that means we're going to end up with swarms of normal jetbikes as our standard unit instead of moving to a heavy jetbike standard instead.

Click to shrink...

I think they do better if you rip out the heavy weapon.
Add in a Holo-Field so they have defenses, and add in a third ranged slot.
Costs is 6 EP more, but it will survive a lot more shit.

Edit:
Hell I think the very slot light vehicles in general do better with just the Ranged slots for large amounts of shot.
Because it's 3 Ranged vs 1 Heavy when adding them with the system slots.

 

[DarkLight140]

I think they do better if you rip out the heavy weapon.
Add in a Holo-Field so they have defenses, and add in a third ranged slot.
Costs is 6 EP more, but it will survive a lot more shit.

Click to shrink...

Admittedly, invisible jetbikes are likely to be both a lot more survivable and a lot more tactically nasty than visible ones. Restricting them to needler weapons makes them viable against a much smaller range of targets, though, which is why I would want to use a heavy jetbike that does both:

[ ] Lancer Jetbike
-[] Heavy Jetbike
-[] Trade in 1 system slot for Ranged slot
-[] Weapons: 1 Heavy Spike Cannon, 3 Needler Rifle
-[] Defense: Holo-Field -2 system slots

But we don't have nearly as many heavy jetbikes to refurbish.

 

[Skjadir]

Admittedly, invisible jetbikes are likely to be both a lot more survivable and a lot more tactically nasty than visible ones. Restricting them to needler weapons makes them viable against a much smaller range of targets, though, which is why I would want to use a heavy jetbike that does both:

Click to shrink...

Just throw out the needlers for spike rifles, that should allow them to do better against a larger amount of threats. (aim is still pretty much just aimed at infantry if we don't add starblasters and i don't want to use the resources there on the bikes).
Problem with the heavy jetbike is that it isn't really many more survivable.

And yes part of it is that we do have ~1000 jetbikes that are in dire need of an upgrade and represent some
21 000EP that are pretty much unused currently.

 

[Karugus]

I loathe this design because it's mechanically optimal while efficiently recycling the junk we have lying around, and that means we're going to end up with swarms of normal jetbikes as our standard unit instead of moving to a heavy jetbike standard instead.

Click to shrink...

I don't dislike heavy jetbikes, but 1-man jetbikes are cooler and our Bright Talons are expensive enough they kinda demand some kind of defense unlike a normal jetbike where it's just genuinely comparable in cost effectiveness to a regular infantry squad, with similar firepower and greater durability in exchange for fewer models.

I actually think the Bright Talons are a really good gunship, and they can grab Holo-Fields with minimal changes with a squad price of 378 EP after VG for the pilots. It's just they're already solid, they'll benefit from VG even if we want to stack a real holo-field on it and we're going to be chewing a lot of exotic resources as we reprocess our detachments. I see the basic jetbikes as spammable troops and will probably leave the Bright Talons as better protected exotic heavy weapon squads.

Given how much I despise the militia jetbikes, the Razorwind is really cathartic.

I think they do better if you rip out the heavy weapon.
Add in a Holo-Field so they have defenses, and add in a third ranged slot.
Costs is 6 EP more, but it will survive a lot more shit.

Click to shrink...

And now they can't do anything but shoot a bunch of infantry rifles unless you give them exotics and I really, really don't see the point for jetbike holo-fields when that's 18 EP better spent giving it to any other vehicle. Especially since they get partial benefits from the rider. If you really want to shell out for more defenses, and I do dislike this route, just give the pilot Ithilmar so the bike gets a pseudo-grav shield on top of pseudo-holo fields. But I reiterate, Bike troops are tough in 40k. VG+Jetbikes are actually going to be a real obnoxious troop because they can jink, get pseudo-Holo Field invulns, and usually the bike is just treated as making the model tougher and giving it more wounds.

You can go the exotic spamming route but we've spammed so many exotics now that it's been confirmed we can mass refit detachments I want to pump the breaks on that. If you do go that route, include a starblaster rifle & a fatesplitter so we can refit HG bikes into it. That's still dozens of Psy-scopes though so be warned.

Hate the Razorwind because it's a soulless killing machine that feels unfair to use (Biel-Tan sympathizers). Don't hate it because vehicle defenses are not actually universally optimal.

 

[Skjadir]

And now they can't do anything but shoot a bunch of rifles unless you give them exotics and I really, really don't see the point for jetbike holo-fields when that's 18 EP better spent giving it to any other vehicle. Especially since they get partial benefits from the rider. If you really want to shell out for more defenses, and I do dislike this route, just give the pilot Ithilmar so the bike gets a pseudo-grav shield on top of pseudo-holo fields.

But I reiterate, Bike troops are tough in 40k.

Click to shrink...

And if you throw the pilot into Ithilmar you are looking at an quite a lot more expensive jetbike.

I could also just trip out one of the needler rifles and the bikes have the same cost.
Razorwind as is, is not a cheap jetbike and lacks the defense to justify that price at least for me.
So the argument that 18EP is too expensive doesn't work too well for me here.

I take the shoot 3 (spike) rifles into infantry and have the vehicle itself be more likely to survive the battlefield and also better stealth capabilities due to the Holo-Fields.

Edit:
Checking your bike prices you sure you did that right?
21+12(spike canon)+12 for the two needler = 45 Ep not 51 or has that something to do with twin linked ?

 

[DarkLight140]

I actually think the Bright Talons are a really good gunship, and they can grab Holo-Fields with minimal changes with a squad price of 378 EP after VG for the pilots. It's just they're already solid, they'll benefit from VG even if we want to stack a real holo-field on it and we're going to be chewing a lot of exotic resources as we reprocess our detachments. I see the basic jetbikes as spammable troops and will probably leave the Bright Talons as better protected exotic heavy weapon squads.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure you can refurbish the Bright Talons to have a holofield like this. They have a Fatecaster Rifle (heavy) and a Starcarver (heavy), meaning that they've turn both ranged weapon slots into a single system slot (or left them empty), then paid 3 system slots for a second heavy weapon system. There's only 1 system slot left to spare after that (or simply 2 unused ranged weapon slots) which means they can't fit in either a holofield or a grav-shield.

If you see how a heavy jetbike can carry two heavy weapons and also a holofield in these mechanics, please explain it.

 

[Karugus]

And if you throw the pilot into Ithilmar you are looking at an quite a lot more expensive jetbike.

I could also just trip out one of the needler rifles and the bikes have the same cost.
Razorwind as is, is not a cheap jetbike and lacks the defense to justify that price at least for me.
So the argument that 18EP is too expensive doesn't work too well for me here.

I take the shoot 3 (spike) rifles into infantry and have the vehicle itself be more likely to survive the battlefield and also better stealth capabilities due to the Holo-Fields.

Edit:
Checking your bike prices you sure you did that right?
21+12(spike canon)+12 for the two needler = 45 Ep not 51 or has that something to do with twin linked ?

Click to shrink...

My price is accounting for the VG in the sticker price given how important the armor is to a jetbike pilot. Once you factor that into yours it's 51 vs. 60. Ithilmar literally only bumps the price up to 68 per.

Keep in mind you already get the partial defense bonuses from the pilot's armor. You are paying 18 EP to change a likely ~1/3-to 1/2 holo-field bonus to 1, when you were essentially getting that fraction anyways. Your defense does nothing to help with the biggest counter to these sort of jetbikes in terms of area of effect/blast weapons and it changes a squad of 6 from having a lot of threatening heavy weapons to just being an overcosted and mobile collection of infantry rifles.

You are paying 45 EP to carry and protect and 3 guns worth 15 EP. It is literally more efficient to just make normal Blazingsword squads and give them a dedicated transport- mobility aside. You are paying for tanky jetbikes that just aren't threatening compared to almost anything else we field. I'm paying for fairly lethal, relatively tough jetbikes that are still liable to be ignored because 'holy shit that rifleman cored a tank with his assault rifle'. I'm paying 27 EP to carry and protect 3 guns worth 24 EP. Which looks more reasonable? When our Riflemen pay 6 EP to carry and protect 1 gun worth 10 EP or our Ithilmar soldiers pay 23 EP to carry and protect weapons worth 25, 26, and 30. The insistence every single jetbike gets a holo-field borders on outright paranoia.

Tanky jetbikes that just aren't threatening compared to almost anything else we field vs. fairly lethal, relatively tough jetbikes that are still liable to be ignored because 'holy shit that rifleman cored a tank with his assault rifle'.

I'm not sure you can refurbish the Bright Talons to have a holofield like this. They have a Fatecaster Rifle (heavy) and a Starcarver (heavy), meaning that they've turn both ranged weapon slots into a single system slot (or left them empty), then paid 3 system slots for a second heavy weapon system. There's only 1 system slot left to spare after that (or simply 2 unused ranged weapon slots) which means they can't fit in either a holofield or a grav-shield.

If you see how a heavy jetbike can carry two heavy weapons and also a holofield in these mechanics, please explain it.

Click to shrink...

Nah, you're right. As someone who really does like the Bright Talons, I guess the best bet is stuffing the crew into Ithilmar. A little silly but, TEQs on jetbikes are funny, and they are carrying around a bunch of exotics. It's only 16 EP more expensive than just giving them Holo-Fields was anyways when you account for VG.

 

[DarkLight140]

You can make a vehicle weapons carrier design off the Heavy Jetbike chassis, which is neat. Sadly it cannot hold any additional vehicle defenses... but it can pull the "rider has fancy defenses in their armor" trick to make up for it. Our forces so far are extremely sparse on vehicle-scale weaponry so it might be worth considering.

[ ] Lancer Jetbike (74 EP)
-[] Heavy Jetbike (37 EP)
-[] Trade in 1 Heavy slot for 2 system slots, 2 Ranged slots for 1 system slot, 6 system slots for 1 Vehicle slot
-[] Weapons: 1 Vehicle Spike Cannon (25 EP)
-[] Crew Equipment: 2 Void Guard Warsuits (12 EP)

Obviously a version that uses exotic weaponry to be deadlier is also possible.

I really, really wish there were base chassis EP costs somewhere so reverse-calculating them from existing designs wasn't necessary; I think a heavy jetbike costs 37 EP but I'm not sure. If those are listed somewhere and someone can point them out know please tell me as it would make life less of a headache.

 

[Skjadir]

My price is accounting for the VG in the sticker price given how important the armor is to a jetbike pilot. Once you factor that into yours it's 51 vs. 63. Ithilmar literally only bumps the price up to 68 per.

Keep in mind you already get the partial defense bonuses from the pilot's armor. You are paying 18 EP to change a likely ~1/3-to 1/2 holo-field bonus to 1, when you were essentially getting that fraction anyways. Your defense does nothing to help with the biggest counter to these sort of jetbikes in terms of area of effect/blast weapons and it changes a squad of 6 from having a lot of threatening heavy weapons to just being an overcosted and mobile collection of infantry rifles.

You are paying 39 EP to carry and protect a rifleman and 3 guns worth 24 EP. It is literally more efficient to just make normal Blazingsword squads and give them a dedicated transport than it is to ever field one of these jetbike squads. You are paying for tanky jetbikes that just aren't threatening. I'm paying for fairly killy, relatively tough jetbikes that are still liable to be ignored because 'holy shit that rifleman cored a tank with his assault rifle'.

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Have to strongly agree to disagree on the effectiveness of the gear and if it is worth it to add vehicle holo-field to actually get the full effect for a vehicle (there is a reason why we don't use infantry holo-fields on them if they were actually effect compared to the vehicle ones).

I really, really wish there were base chassis EP costs somewhere so reverse-calculating them from existing designs wasn't necessary; I think a heavy jetbike costs 37 EP but I'm not sure. If those are listed somewhere and someone can point them out know please tell me as it would make life less of a headache.

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Yeah, having baseline EP costs for the raw chassis would be very nice.