On its own outproduces what a major craftworld like Biel-Tan can do at the moment.

Biel-Tan would have to blow a Hole into our Craftworld and lift a Major Industrial Instalation out of there, if they wanted the Forge for themselves. If they start to crack open and loot other Craftworlds, they will be as welcome as Pleasure Cultists by the other Craftworlders.

EDIT:
-3x dedicated troop barges (666 EP after accounting for VGA for it's crew)

Kinky :ogles:
 
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Keeping an eye on humans does not come from a place of compassion. It probably comes from a warning from some seer/Eldrad, about the great crusade.
It comes because we had a vision about the rise of the IoM and decided that keeping an eye out and not immediately burning our bridges might be a good idea.
I also have zero interest in doing anything with humans in this quest.
Too bad, I guess? We voted for the policy decision of doing stuff with humans. I guess we could then vote to not follow that policy decision, but it winning implies a decent chunk of people agree with it, and we'll be presented with options to do stuff with them because of that choice.
Besides, why even help?
Because Chaos is bad? While the enemy of my enemy is only my enemy's enemy, teaching them how to not get their souls eaten doesn't make them that much more of a threat to us, but it does deny Chaos resources in the form of agents and food. We could technically do the same by killing them all and stealing their souls ourselves, but that would presumably be a lot more effort than just letting them self-regulate towards not giving Chaos more juice.
They are xenocidal and would have no qualms against turning whatever we do for them against us or other eldar.

As we see them do to basically every xeno/xeno-adjacent human faction they encounter.
I mean, Mankind as a whole isn't like that, given the GC ran into a fair few human/xenos polities and whether the Emperor is actively xenophobic or just apathetic and humanocentric varies from interpretation to interpretation. The Anatolian didn't experience the DAoT, so already probably lacks the personal grudge many interpretations of the Emperor have due to the Dominion's escalating madness as they approached the Fall.

It's generally important to note that what the IoM did in the next ten thousand years was almost universally the exact opposite of what the Emperor wanted, and based on the writings of the actual arch-traitor. Whether their stance on Xenos is representative of his stance is unclear, and we know several of the Primarchs were willing to at least consider negotiating with Xenos in good faith, even if circumstances conspired to strangle such possibilities in the cradle.
...Actually, maybe pre-Vect Commorragh would up for a change in leadership? IIRC, Vect more or less led a revolution against previous - universally disliked - government. A bunch of terminators and an alternative to soul-eating might stick, particularly amongst impoverished and non-noble eldar.
Down with the bourgeois! SPACE ELF HYPERINDUSTRIAL COMMUNISM HOOOOOOO!
I wonder if we can get basic human or other xeno automation tech.
Well, K'Phra and Zarnov definitely have samples we could get, and we did grab the "study xenotech" starting infrastructure.
Do we know anything about eldar medical tech?
Or do they use biomancy?
We don't know a lot about how Craftworlds and Exodites do it. Deldar have Homunculi who use technology to do a lot of impressive medical (mostly "medical") stuff with as little personal psychic power as possible.
 
My stance on humans is that to us, they are just like any other alien species. Humans are fine, its the Imperium of Man itself that we must be wary of because of their policies regarding other alien species.
 
So, while we're on the subject of the incoming First Defensive War, I did some inventory on our fleet.

  • 12 Combat Brig
  • 30 Battle Carrack
  • 57 Assault Ketch
  • 20 Battle Caravel
  • 55 Lance Cutter
  • 45 Lance Sloop

Here is our current combat ready fleet that we can rely upon in the event of a surprise Biel-Tan warhost excluding the forces we send to Meros, which was previously 5 Brigs, 12 Carracks, 20 Caravels, 25 Ketches, 25 Cutters and 25 Sloops.

So assuming we don't have those on hand / we send the same amount of ships to Meros, the ships at our disposal is 7 Brigs, 18 Carracks, 32 Ketches, 30 Cutters and 20 sloops consisting of our home defense fleet.

Below is our list of damaged, non-combat-ready ships that we can repair using Bonesinger actions.

  • 2 Combat Brig (Starcaster Mega-Lance disabled)
  • 2 combat brig (Æthersails destroyed)
  • 7 battle Carrack (Æthersails destroyed)
  • 7 battle Carrack (One to two Weapons Batteries disabled, Plasma Drives offline)
  • 10 battle Carrack (Heavy Starlance disabled)
  • 32 Assault Ketch (Æthersails destroyed)
  • 12 Assault Ketch (Weapons Batteries disabled)
  • 7 Assault Ketch (Heavy Starlance disabled)
  • 40 Battle Caravel (Æthersails destroyed/Mobility Kill)
  • 10 Battle Caravel (Point Defense Grid & 1-2 Weapons Batteries disabled)
  • 2 Battle Caravel (Heavy Las-Lance disabled)
  • 47 Lance Cutter (Æthersails destroyed/Mobility Kill)
  • 32 Lance Cutter (Weapons Battery Disabled/Mission Kill)
  • 40 Lance Sloop (Æthersails destroyed/Mobility Kill)
  • 30 Lance Sloop (Heavy Las-Lance Disabled/Mission Kill)

This amount totals to around 4 Brigs, 24 Carracks, 51 Ketches 52 Caravels, 72 Cutters and 70 Sloops that we can repair using our BAP (we get 3 escorts per point and 1 capital per point), granted, they might still be somewhat useful as they are right now, but we shouldn't rely upon them as a defense because of their damage.

So, assuming we repair our entire fleet, we will have the grand total of:

• 16 Brigs (11 after Meros deployment).
• 54 Carracks (42 after Meros)
• 108 Ketches (83 After Meros)
• 72 Caravels (52 After Meros)
• 127 Cutters (97 after Meros)
• 115 Sloops (95 after Meros)

To defend the Craftworld, unless Biel-Tan has an armada and is throwing it at us, they won't be able to push through our defenses without drawing blood away from their local territory to settle a grudge in the far north.

(Conversely, building ships is probably going to take a LONG time if we don't use Vaul Forge actions to speed them up).

Our biggest defense right now would really be to just talk to Iyanden and Saim-Hann (and explain to Ulthwe that we're actively working on a solution to Slaanesh) to tell Biel-Tan to stand down, because even with this fleet and our troops, we're outnumbered.

EDIT:

Also I just realised, but manipulating enemies into attacking us could be a way that Alatoic and Biel-Tan can get around any anti-kinstrife rules established "Why no, Sir! That Ork looted D-Cannons and strapped them onto their ships, totally normal Ork ocurrence, I assure you!"

We should probably figure some way to make Alatoic less likely to side against us if we can help it, and making friends with Iyanden is always an option - Beliefs about the Dominion notwithstanding -

Besides, if they do attack, then all of the craftworlds will see firsthand what Biel-Tan means by them "Working to rebuild the Dominion", which involved attacking a peaceful, industrious craftworld in an attempt to rob, vassalize or humiliate them like a bully, and I anticipate that this might even result in an Iyanden|Biel-Tan breakup if it gets bad enough.

It's easy to say you're rebuilding the Dominion when you're killing alien colonists settling on the worlds your ancestors worked to terraform over the span of milennia, it's another thing entirely when the biggest advocate for that mindset of rebuilding is outright willing to MURDER craftworlders because they were "Cowardly traitors" or had a different view to rebuilding the Eldar.

It'd be a massive stain on their reputation.
 
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We can't possibly repair our entire fleet anytime soon considering that's 80 capitals and 200 escorts. That's 147 Bonesinger AP. (Sidenote: I have no idea how the hell Arach-Qin is repairing so many ships at a time)

It seems like the intended course of action is only to bring in our damaged ships for repairs once we have a new, better design available for that hull. If we assume this intended to be stretched over ~15 turns.
 
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We can't possibly repair our entire fleet anytime soon considering that's 80 capitals and 200 escorts. That's 147 Bonesinger AP. (Sidenote: I have no idea how the hell Arach-Qin is repairing so many ships at a time)

It seems like the intended course of action is only to bring in our damaged ships for repairs once we have a new, better design available for that hull. If we assume this intended to be stretched over ~15 turns.
We could probably speed it up a little bit if we use Vaul forges to add a 1d3 to the amount of construction time (which I think spills over, so if we repair 3 escorts and we get a 3 on our roll, we can repair 9? Idk)

Buuut that'd require using our forge action, which is no bueno.

Also, did we ever find out if building capital ships meant that we could only build one at a time? I swear there was a WOG of Mechanis saying that we have an option each turn to keep building a ship.
 
We could probably speed it up a little bit if we use Vaul forges to add a 1d3 to the amount of construction time (which I think spills over, so if we repair 3 escorts and we get a 3 on our roll, we can repair 9? Idk)

Buuut that'd require using our forge action, which is no bueno.

Also, did we ever find out if building capital ships meant that we could only build one at a time? I swear there was a WOG of Mechanis saying that we have an option each turn to keep building a ship.
Ships cost AP to lay down, but unless you are building a very great many at once continuing builds will generally be lumped into a single action.
It takes 1 AP to lay a ship down to be built, but then they should keep continuously building until done with only 1 combined AP cost so we're heavily incentivized to lay down a big bloc of ships all at once and then keep a single AP on them. We don't know how this works with repairs since repairs only take a single action and explicitly mentions covering three escorts or only 1 capital per. I'm pretty sure the quest is going to pretty rapidly pivot to a longer time scale based on these sort of things.
 
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An odd thought but if we came across or learned of a ruined craftworld should we try and claim it ourselves? not if Vau-Vaulkesh destroyed the craftworld, but if (for example) Meros or any of the other craftworlds we could have made an alliance with during character creation happened to get depopulated by orks, Necrons, or some Xenos but the craftworld itself was still salvageable/repairable should we try and incorporate it into our faction?
 
Maybe I'm underestimating the homing effect. Like, does it depend on tracking the target first?

Either way, it should probably be our weapon of choice for this refit.
The fatecasters track the target by deciding that getting impaled through all your organs is just what fate has in store for you followed by space and time bending as far as they need to get that done. If holofield can spoof that then it is because they have some genuine psykic mojo in them that overpowers the effect of the fatecaster - no amount of illusions should logically work here.
 
I'm thinking of something much leaner (you have more melee dudes in this detachment than the Militia Assault detachment has). This is heavily stacked for melee and probably too expensive. We don't necessarily need so many IFVs combined with the Barges either. You only really need 2 if you're using the Needlestorm to save costs, and Mechanis has said dedicated troop transports get around the 3 unit limit so we'd just need to try and modify the attack barge into one.

I'm thinking 2 detachments rather than 1 universal one (precisely to avoid sticking a bunch of expensive melee troops where they're not needed)

Yeah, was a bit too expensive and did some reworking (will have to do that again a few times I think as we finalize upgrades).

Overall I try to be kind of efficient with the AP to raise 3 Detachments per turn and disband two.
More or less get much stronger Assault detachments while slowly getting the useable gear out of the militia assault detachments (also keeping cost below 10k with the reusable gear, so we only use the 2 forge actions on that).


Also, kind of try to maximize the power these detachments have while still being (hopefully) standard detachments and not heavy. Which results in much nasty warhost when the detachments that make them up are all quite beefy.

For Heavy detachments i would go for almost max size without adding any special units.
Prize tag for that is I think around 6000 EP per.

My Idea for homeguard warhost would be pretty much that 4 heavy almost max sized detachments without specials added (the special stuff comes after we finished the special project) and without additional special detachments.


And if I wanted max numbers well:
HQ:
Adamant Command Squad (324 EP, 32 Star Crystal)
Troops:
-3 Rifle: Blazingsword Rifle Squad (232 EP, 22 Star Crystal)
-Voidspear Marksman Squad (294 EP 6 psy-scopes)
-1Assault: Forgefire Assault Squad (612 EP)

Cost:~1926 EP, 98 Starcrystals, 6 psy-scopes
Can do 5 of these per turn with 2 Forge actions with a tiny bit left over.

Not a very mobile detachment, but lots and lots of guns to point at things and likely very good at holding ground.
 
We can't really afford to slap that on an expendable destroyer sadly. One of those is just shy of half of our Psy-Scope production.
Some of our frigates have weapons that use Special Resources, but I agree that new Destroyers probably shouldn't have any. Though as far as I can tell that only leaves Las-lances for them to use.

As far as repairing ships goes I am tempted to put 4AP into repairing the 4 damaged Combat Brig's we have. No idea whether they'll take more than one turn to finish, but it seems like the biggest bang for our buck we can get in the short term as far as expanding our fleet goes.

And we definitely still have space left over in our docks even after helping Arach-Qin.

EDIT: @Mechanis is there any way to tell how many turns a starship will take to repair, or do we have to start repairing it first to find out?
 
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(Sidenote: I have no idea how the hell Arach-Qin is repairing so many ships at a time)

But @Karugus it is simple Math!

1 AP for 1 Capital
1 AP for 3 Escorts.

Do this for 4 Turns

1*4= 4 Capitals
3*4=12 Escorts

There you have it. Glad to be of Service!

EDIT: Note that i am not serious Here. It takes between 10 and 20 of our Capital Slipways and between 20 and 100 for the Escorts for 4 Turns at the Least. Could be longer. So we have no idea how many Ships there really are, but they won't have a Big Navy, even after Repairs.

Even our Navy is Small for our Craftworld Size, because we picked that Drawback at the Start.
 
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On the plus side, we'll have a sword of vaul soon, so our navy will hit disproportionately harder once we get around to the arduous task of reformatting our navy so we aren't made of wet cardboard and old cigarettes.
 
On the plus side, we'll have a sword of vaul soon, so our navy will hit disproportionately harder once we get around to the arduous task of reformatting our navy so we aren't made of wet cardboard and old cigarettes.
To be fair, those old Cigarettes are Aeldari Dominion Grade Cigarettes capable of killing several species with but a single puff.

Unfortunately we're surrounded by Orks.
 
Some of our frigates have weapons that use Special Resources, but I agree that new Destroyers probably shouldn't have any. Though as far as I can tell that only leaves Las-lances for them to use.

As far as repairing ships goes I am tempted to put 4AP into repairing the 4 damaged Combat Brig's we have. No idea whether they'll take more than one turn to finish, but it seems like the biggest bang for our buck we can get in the short term as far as expanding our fleet goes.

And we definitely still have space left over in our docks even after helping Arach-Qin.
I definitely want to repair our Brigs before Biel-Tan shows up. But we do have spike cannon macrobatteries though, and I wouldn't discount our Las-Lances either. That's the same base tech that winds up becoming the primary ship to ship weapons of the Craftworlders and the Dark Eldar (iirc). We don't have Pulsars just yet, but they're one of the major reasons Eldar are considered glass cannons rather than just glass.

Also, kind of try to maximize the power these detachments have while still being (hopefully) standard detachments and not heavy. Which results in much nasty warhost when the detachments that make them up are all quite beefy.

For Heavy detachments i would go for almost max size without adding any special units.
Prize tag for that is I think around 6000 EP per.

My Idea for homeguard warhost would be pretty much that 4 heavy almost max sized detachments without specials added (the special stuff comes after we finished the special project) and without additional special detachments.


And if I wanted max numbers well:
HQ:
Adamant Command Squad (324 EP, 32 Star Crystal)
Troops:
-3 Rifle: Blazingsword Rifle Squad (232 EP, 22 Star Crystal)
-Voidspear Marksman Squad (294 EP 6 psy-scopes)
-1Assault: Forgefire Assault Squad (612 EP)

Cost:~1926 EP, 98 Starcrystals, 6 psy-scopes
Can do 5 of these per turn with 2 Forge actions with a tiny bit left over.
I think we're coming at this from completely different angles if that's your conclusion. Disbanding a detachment saves maybe ~1500 EP at the high end. It's definitely something I'd like to do but we can't assume that we'll be throwing tons of BAP at these detachments from now until the end of time. I agree that 4 detachments per warhost is pretty feasible, but you're going to need a pretty breakneck pace to make this remotely feasible, and a bloated warhost is honestly a bit of a bad thing. We want multiple warhosts because it gives us a lot more flexibility in how we deploy them.

To me, an entire warhost should probably cost around 12,400 at the absolute most. I don't really see 6000 EP a detachment for something we should even be considering for anything less than a super heavy engine of vaul detachment and even then that's probably several super heavy vehicles.

That being said, that's probably a really solid light detachment. Even foot Eldar in unpowered armor are fast, and Ithilmar is probably notably faster than basic eldar on foot. Maybe slap in a jetbike squad to avoid being kited completely and you'd be good to go.
 
I definitely want to repair our Brigs before Biel-Tan shows up. But we do have spike cannon macrobatteries though, and I wouldn't discount our Las-Lances either. That's the same base tech that winds up becoming the primary ship to ship weapons of the Craftworlders and the Dark Eldar (iirc). We don't have Pulsars just yet, but they're one of the major reasons Eldar are considered glass cannons rather than just glass.
Oh I'm not saying they're bad, I was just running a blank on what else we could use that wasn't Fatecaster or Starlance derived. The Spike Cannons would be good for some variety, though it's a shame there's not a Heavy Naval version.
 
To me, an entire warhost should probably cost around 12,400 at the absolute most. I don't really see 6000 EP a detachment for something we should even be considering for anything less than a super heavy engine of vaul detachment and even then that's probably several super heavy vehicles.

(Almost) Full heavy detachment has a lot of units in it.
2 HQ ~648 EP
5 Troop ~1920 EP (3 Rifle, 2 Assault)
3 Elite ~800-1000 EP
4 Heavy support ~2600 EP
-2 IFV
-2 Heavy Grav Vehicles
4 Fast attacker ~800 EP
Total 6968 EP if we go really expensive

And yes, I would throw in 2 Heavy Grav Vehicles with full upgrades (heavy grav tank likely around 900-1000k with full weapon slots a good weapons, ~662 for weapons + defense, added unknown build cost).
Other part is that I expect the Elite units to add quite a bit of expense after we got their upgrades.

For he Homeguard/Warhammer we throw at stuff we want smashed Warhost I would go with 4 of these*, build time most likely around 3 turns to get the detachments done, but also more a thing for later after we got our craft world fully repaired and most of our military unfucked.

So not really anytime soon.

*27 872 and we can still slot in 3 more special detachments if we have a need for that likely getting the cost to ~40k EP
 
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Yeah. That seems completely unfeasible and unnecessary. We literally do not know what we're using for an elite squad at the moment. We could duplicate the Adamants but it would be insanely wasteful and burn exotics like nothing else, and the elites wouldn't really cover any new roles.

We should be making a baseline simple warhost for the time being and make super elite warhosts in the future once we have super heavies and more wargear options, mechs, weapon batteries etc. this feels like trying to sprint when we've just risen from a crawl to our knees.
 
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Considering how the AP economy of Detachment design works, after consideration I'm thinking that we want to try and keep ourselves to designing detachments that consist of only our newbuild stuff. That means no legacy vehicles or unit types. We just don't want to be burning AP on things that we'll have to re-do in a few turns to get rid of the guys who are still running around in wraithbone trauma plates or hardsuits, or vehicles with no holofields/poor weapon choices.

This means that whatever detachment we design first should include only the three Troop types and two Vehicle types that we're rationalizing this turn, absolutely nothing else. It's a little weird to consider not having any HQ at all but that's optional by the rules.

Everything that incorporates a greater variety of unit types will have to be held for later turns as we rationalize more unit types.
 
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This means that whatever detachment we design first should include only the three Troop types and two Vehicle types that we're rationalizing this turn, absolutely nothing else. It's a little weird to consider not having any HQ at all but that's optional by the rules.
I uh, I think we're going to get to make Elite and HQ squads as well this turn?
 
I uh, I think we're going to get to make Elite and HQ squads as well this turn?
I don't think so? I thought it was just our Troops, not every type of infantry we might want. If you're right that's great but it seems a little weird that we'd pay 2 AP to redesign 2 vehicles while paying 1 AP to redesign 8-9 (?) infantry types, from both an AP economy and an OOC pacing perspective. Three unit designs per AP already seemed generous.
 
I'd actually specifically keep Bright Talons even with new build detachments considering the partial effectiveness of the rider's holofields. Probably the same thing for our already armed jetbikes. Based off TT bike troops tend to be surprisingly tanky at the cost of fewer models.

The alternative is we make 4-5 lighter detachments centered around infantry this turn ala our Militia/HG support detachments and then make the line/assault primary detachments (which are likely to be heavy detachments) next turn after we've polished up and have a few more modern designs.
 
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What part about we can literally only make 5 detachments a turn at most right now don't you understand? I've broken down the math down elsewhere into the thread but the 5 AP limit massively changes things. We cannot 1 to 1 swap 3 detachments a turn, let alone an arbitrary amount. Maybe we'll get an option to swap a detachment 1 to 1 for one AP but we've never seen that option and Mechanis hasn't mentioned anything.

With the throttling of new detachments and the inefficiencies of refitting existing detachments we cannot possibly raise more than 5 detachments a turn. And considering that everyone seems to be a lotting at least the 2 VAP we literally have no incentive right now to make a detachment costing less than 2k EP. Now, chances are the detachments will run closer to 3 than 2k, but that just means a few BAP and only 4 detachments a turn.

A broad and cheap sweeping reform and organization was my initial goal.with next to no Ithilmar squads, small VGA squads, and Guardians in Brigantines… and then it was confirmed we can't raise more than 5 detachments a turn and we'd be twiddling our thumbs with that plan. We cannot just replace existing detachments on a 1-to-1 basis and we will quite likely have shitty militia Warhosts for the entire quest because we have to actively pay to get rid of militia detachments. You may not like it, *I don't fully like it*, but those are the limitations we're operating under.
The notion that the only way to change a warhost's contents is to break it up, dissolve each detachment, and then restitch the whole thing back together, is so absurd I'm not entertaining it. Game mechanics can change-and should change, if there is a reason to do so! Do we need to, in order to refit a fleet, spend military AP to dissolve the squadron, then spend production capacity in the yards to make the actual refit, then spend military AP to form a brand new squadron? No! We just refit the fucking ships! So why is it so hard to say 'Swap all instances of Militia Pattern 29.1 to Militia Pattern 29.3, as supplies become available.'?
 
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