The first step in rationalizing your army is to develop better Troops options.
This refers to the unit classification of Troops, as opposed to Elite/Fast Attack/etc., right? Are there any restrictions on our design here on the grounds that, say, a dozen guys in Ithilmar heavy suits with weapons that take special resources to construct are fairly obviously Elites rather than Troops?
 
Okay, things that we really need to take into consideration when making choices here:
  1. The number of troops that our transports can carry. Squad size is capped in theory at 15, but what we actually want for our squad size is "as many troops as fit on the vehicle we use to carry them around, or slightly less". This means that we want our squads to match the carrying capacity of a Speeder, which is noted to "sport a modest cargo capacity or carry a handful of passengers", or grav-barges, which are large enough to serve as "mass transit and small-cargo carriers". Additionally, heavier armor takes more space. This means that the number of people a speeder or grav-barge can carry is likely to be different depending on what kind of armor they are wearing, and our squad sizes need to account for that as well. I think we need assistance from @Mechanis to effectively know what squad sizes will match our vehicle capacities.
  2. We have sharply limited special resource production. 800 Starcrystals and 120 Psyscopes sounds like a lot until you realize that those numbers have to account for not only our army but also our navy- where a single ship's armament can easily eat up an entire turn's worth of production. We need to be conservative with our special resource spending.
  3. Everything we do here will be multiplied by very large numbers. It might seem cool to give the lead of every squad a power sword (and let's be honest, it is) but that's 15 EP multiplied by our entire military, so maybe the ranged squad doesn't actually need a flashy melee weapon that they will never be using if things go to plan. This is particularly nasty with special resources- keeping the expenditure of those to 1-2 per squad is frankly a necessity for any unit meant to be mass-produced.
 
Brigantine was supposed to be upgraded to medium though @Mechanis ?
It's still unpowered. it's very, very good, but you're still talking about cloth-and-plate armor. only so much you can do.
"Further, infantry may by default carry up to two pieces of non-integral general equipment without being slowed, and no more than five total"

So, even though we didn't add holofields to the Brigantine, it's possible to give our millita external holofield devices to carry/wear?
yes. those are significantly more expensive, though, because you're also paying for a power supply, sensor kit, computers, casing and some kind of strap/clip/whatever, not just the actual projector bits.
 
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One thing I'm really curious about is how our laser weapons compare to canon Craftworld designs. Lasers seem to be pretty downplayed as very basic and cheap weapons when most of the canon Craftworld heavier weapons are lasers as are a lot of Aspect Weapons. Their Titans and Warships are both built around various sizes of Pulsars, you've got the Bright Lance, the Fire Prism, and the Scatter Lasers, and then you have some aspect warriors and corsairs making heavy use of lasers (lasblasters, prism rifles, and laser lances for instance)

I'm not going to complain if our lasers are (currently) worse than those, or if we haven't created our own equivalents for all those roles- but knowing how our lasers compare would help clarify their effectiveness given how IC we're pretty contemptuous of them.


As for squad sizes, I think base 12 for Guardians base 6 for HG is valid. As for needlers? I'm pretty ambivalent, we can't afford to rearm the Guardians anytime soon, and a SL Carbine isn't much more expensive in exchange for ensuring HG have firepower closer to a Terminator squad than regular troops.

I'm thinking 11 Guardians and one HG as a squad leader. Fire squad leaders carry a star rifle (we have a few unused detachments we can cannibalize if need be), Assault squad leaders carry a Power Maul+Flamer Pistol. VGA. 2 Flamers and a Screamer seem like solid special weapons but I'm tempted to drop the Screamer because then we can avoid having any heavy weapons slowing the squad down but our Fire Guardians carry Las Rifles, and those probably already have rules for penalties for shooting and moving, so heavy weapons should be fine.


Most of our HG squads are solid they just need VGA. They're small, lethal MSU that are still broadly flexible despite being mono-weapon squads. @Mechanis, would just updating all the HG Ironbreaker, Brightstar, and Fatebreaker squads to have VGA take a slot each?
 
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One thing I'm really curious about is how our laser weapons compare to canon Craftworld designs. Lasers seem to be pretty downplayed as very basic and cheap weapons when most of the canon Craftworld heavier weapons are lasers as are a lot of Aspect Weapons. Their Titans and Warships are both built around various sizes of Pulsars, you've got the Bright Lance, the Fire Prism, and the Scatter Lasers, and then you have some aspect warriors and corsairs making heavy use of lasers (lasblasters, prism rifles, and laser lances for instance)

I'm not going to complain if our lasers are (currently) worse than those, or if we haven't created our own equivalents for all those roles- but knowing how our lasers compare would help clarify their effectiveness given how IC we're pretty contemptuous of them.


As for squad sizes, I think base 12 for Guardians base 6 for HG is valid. As for needlers? I'm pretty ambivalent, we can't afford to rearm the Guardians anytime soon, and a SL Carbine isn't much more expensive in exchange for ensuring HG have firepower closer to a Terminator squad than regular troops.

We might be able to give every HG a Starblaster now, but that doesn't mean we can spam it for militia.

What I do want to figure out is a good distinct name for our Irregulars though.

EDIT: Oh yeah @Mechanis , I don't know if you've covered it, but are these just Troop units we're putting in? No Elites or Specials or anything? Just Troops?
 
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@Mechanis what's the actual difference between the Carbine versions of all these weapons and the Rifle? I know the latter is more expensive, I guess it's just also got a slightly lower fire rate/higher power?
Also how does this work with the unit type split on the front page, if we deck a squad out in Ithilmar suits and power mauls would they automatically count as Elites, or do we need to design squads here solely for the Troop slot?
As for squad sizes, I think base 12 for Guardians base 6 for HG is valid. As for needlers? I'm pretty ambivalent, we can't afford to rearm the Guardians anytime soon, and a SL Carbine isn't much more expensive in exchange for ensuring HG have firepower closer to a Terminator squad than regular troops.
I actually like them, 2 points for the sidearm seems like a great backup weapon.

Maybe something like this for a shooty squad?
[][SQUAD1] 6 Eldar in Void Guard Warsuits: 2 w/ Spike Rifle and Power Sword (Light), 4 w/ Spike Rifle and Needler Pistol
I figure the autotargeter would help make up for the Spike Rifle's accuracy.
 
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You know what, fuck it, I will make a plan for one of the compositions, the heavy/melee one:

[] Plan: Vau-Vulkesh Space Guard
-[][Personel] 10 Person squad
-[][Armour] Ithilmar Assault Suit
-[][Heavy Weapon] Starcarver
-[][Non-Heavy Weapon] Power Maul

My reasoning: Starcarver is the best of heavy weapons that should be used in an open field. Combined with a power maul, this squad will kill anything short of a titan. It shall cut through the space marines, the tanks and the knights. Also, they can hold their ground while others back away to more advantageous positions.
 
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@Mechanis what's the actual difference between the Carbine versions of all these weapons and the Rifle? I know the latter is more expensive, I guess it's just also got a slightly lower fire rate/higher power?
"Fatecaster Rifles are heavy weapons which fire spikes of Wraithbone the size of an Eldar finger - each seeking out weak points in the target without fail, guided by advanced Psy-tech which dates to the Imperial Age." An idea for Rifles.
 
We might be able to give every HG a Starblaster now, but that doesn't mean we can spam it for militia.

What I do want to figure out is a good distinct name for our Irregulars though.

EDIT: Oh yeah @Mechanis , I don't know if you've covered it, but are these just Troop units we're putting in? No Elites or Specials or anything? Just Troops?
Nah, I'm saying we let the Militia keep their lasrifles. Going from 2 EP to 4 EP effectively doubles the cost of the armor roll out and it can probably wait until later as we're trying to downplay our militia.
[][SQUAD1] 6 Eldar in Void Guard Warsuits: 1 w/ Spike Rifle and Power Sword (Light), 5 w/ Spike Rifle and Needler Pistol
I figure the autotargeter would help make up for the Spike Rifle's accuracy.
We have plenty of Fatebreakers right now, we really don't need to alter the guns our HG are using- every single one is using Exotic weapons that are a hell of a lot stronger than these. HG really just need better protection, which is why the sticking point is if we can up armor those squads without wasting a Rationalization slot on them.

When we're raising new HG squads we might downgrade but these are just actively worse than the HG we're using in terms of weapons. And yes- that squad is stool too expensive for us to reasonably replace our Guardians with soon either.

[] Plan: Vau-Vulkesh Space Guard
-[][Personel] 10 Person squad
-[][Armour] Ithilmar Assault Suit
-[][Heavy Weapon] Starcarver
-[][Non-Heavy Weapon] Power Maul
That's a 730 EP unit. I want everyone to think very carefully about this sort of thing because making a template here we can't afford is probably worse than useless. I recommend anything with Ithilmar stick to the 6 man unit sizes our IFVs and HGs use. Ideally we should be reorganizing existing squads into these new ones.
 
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Nah, I'm saying we let the Militia keep their lasrifles. Going from 2 EP to 4 EP effectively doubles the cost of the armor roll out and it can probably wait until later as we're trying to downplay our militia.

We have plenty of Fatebreakers right now, we really don't need to alter the guns our HG are using- every single one is using Exotic weapons that are a hell of a lot stronger than these. HG really just need better protection, which is why the sticking point is if we can up armor those squads without wasting a Rationalization slot on them.


When we're raising new HG squads we might downgrade but these are just actively worse than the HG we're using in terms of weapons.

Basically, the outline I'm looking at for our Troops would be something along the lines of 4 Hearthguard and 8 of whatever we call our Militia units, Hearthguard wear VG and get access to the Good Good Toys. Our dedicated Close Combat unit though would probably be primarily Hearthguard and thus smaller numbers, but that's because melee combat is hard for space elfs.

But basically, I'm thinking "Shooty Gunline Squad with Militia using Needlers and HG using Fatecasters with a sidearm, specializing in anti-Infantry work, an Anti-Armor squad with Spike Rifle Militia and Starcarver equipped Hearthguard (With maybe a Sidearm Power Sword for close in work), and then a dedicated "Beat Shit Up" melee Troop using Power Mauls with a Starblaster Pistol sidearm while they close, made entirely of Hearthguard (And thus, smaller numbers, but high power concentration)

If we're purely selecting Troops here though, Ithilmar Armor isn't really a good option, it's just too damn expensive for our meat and potatoes filler units.
 
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That's a 730 EP unit. I want everyone to think very carefully about this sort of thing because making a template here we can't afford is probably worse than useless. I recommend anything with Ithilmar stick to the 6 man unit sizes our IFVs and HGs use. Ideally we should be reorganizing existing squads into these new ones.
I will say that Starcarver+power maul is a pretty kickass loadout.
 
That's a 730 EP unit. I want everyone to think very carefully about this sort of thing because making a template here we can't afford is probably worse than useless. I recommend anything with Ithilmar stick to the 6 man unit sizes our IFVs and HGs use. Ideally we should be reorganizing existing squads into these new ones.
Fair, it is 1 am for me so I did not bother doing math
 
Also, a very nice thing about researching Needlers? We got a macrocannon that doesn't cost Exotics to equip, very nice.
 
[] Plan: Militia no More
-[] Guardian Bright Squad
--[][Personel] 12 Person squad
--[][Armour] Void Guard Warsuit, 11 Wraithweave Brigantines
---[][Weapon] 1x Screamer Grenade Launcher, 2x Heavy Needlers, 8x LasRifles, 1 StarRifle (commander), 1 Flamer Pistol (commander)
-[] Guardian Iron Squad
--[][Personel] 12 Person squad
--[][Armour] 1x Void Guard Warsuit, 11x Wraithweave Brigantines
---[][Weapon] 1x Power Maul, 1x Star Pistol, 11x CCW, 11x Flamer Pistols.
Fair, it is 1 am for me so I did not bother doing math
No I get it, but it's easy to think 'we've paid for this elite suit of armor, that's the bulk of it right?' and then just wince when you realize giving them a Power Maul doubles their cost. I know what I'm suggesting isn't flashy or as fun as super heavy assault infantry, but it's trying to come from a place of using as many of our preexisting resources as possible to make our EP go farther.

Also, a very nice thing about researching Needlers? We got a macrocannon that doesn't cost Exotics to equip, very nice.
Tbf, most Eldar warships don't even use Macro Cannons because their Pulsar Laser Lances are so strong (I think DE tend towards Dark Lances but still mostly Lance spam)... so I'm not sure exactly how that shakes out for us. Our basic lasers seem significantly less developed than the Craftworlds pushed the tech so I wouldn't discount them just yet.
 
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Hmm, I'm actually largely in favor of the Ember and Steel Squads, but could I suggest that you set up a Spiker equipped force for suppressing high Armor/Toughness enemies?

Spikers seem to be excellent AP weapons, while Needlers are great at hosing down hordes of infantry even in the hands of Guardian squads it seems.
 
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Any on have thoughts on my ideas as current? I will repost them if needed.
Your ideas are fun but so horrifyingly expensive as to be unusable on a large scale and are better suited as Elites than Troops. 15-man units would probably take three Needlestorms to move around (they carry six Hearthguard, who currently wear light armor, so 5 of a somewhat heavier armor probably works) which is really expensive, though I guess a 15-troop squad might fit on an Attack Barge variant.

But we really need something affordable more than something awesome, here.
 
"Fatecaster Rifles are heavy weapons which fire spikes of Wraithbone the size of an Eldar finger - each seeking out weak points in the target without fail, guided by advanced Psy-tech which dates to the Imperial Age." An idea for Rifles.
Starblaster RifleStarblaster
Starblaser CarbineStarblaster
Needler RifleNeedler
Needler CarbineNeedler
Spike RifleNeedler
Spike CarbineNeedler
LasrifleLas
Lascarbine
I'm talking more about these, where the rifles and carbines of the same type of weapon are in the same weight class.
We have plenty of Fatebreakers right now, we really don't need to alter the guns our HG are using- every single one is using Exotic weapons that are a hell of a lot stronger than these. HG really just need better protection, which is why the sticking point is if we can up armor those squads without wasting a Rationalization slot on them.

When we're raising new HG squads we might downgrade but these are just actively worse than the HG we're using in terms of weapons.
I can see the argument for HG not using needlers, but I don't think it's right to just dismiss needlers out of hand. I can definitely see a use for them in the Militia Assault squads.
 
What is the Thousand Sons for 1,000 Alex?

As for the status of elite troops… our HG are carrying around a few squads of space marines worth of firepower in just one 6 man squad. If our line troops can't engage Space Marines as near peer despite literally everyone who's anyone being able to field MEQs we've fucked up.

Your sense of proportion and scale is completely wrong. Ithilmar isn't a MEQ armor, it's a TEQ. Our VGA is probably not that far removed from Space Marine armor once you factor in Holofields.

I mean it depends what you wanna do. If you want to actually fully take and occupy a world you need a massive number of warm bodies even if your super elites have broken the enemies back. There is a reason the astartes legions needed the imperial army. If your just doing surgical strikes where you kill or capture a specific objective on a planet, you can get away with a few tens of thousands of elites but some tasks just fundamentally need numbers.
 
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