A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[Randino Treviani]

Fata Morgana isn't going to be done in time. The wild hunt starts some time from turn 9 to 11 and we need to send our force no later than turn 8 the latest. There is no way the chassis is ready by turn 7 and we have a design by turn 8 since it needs to arrive ahead of time for training purposes, so it's just not an option. More likely we'll be using the organize troop action we took this turn to scrap together a warhost and update it's equipment over the course of turns 6 & 7 to dispatch with a carrack & war ketch group turn 8 to participate in the wyld hunt.

 

[TheParadigm]

If you want a design to be produced faster, then optimize for EP cost. All plasma loadouts are comparatively pretty cheap.

 

[F0lkL0re]

If you want a design to be produced faster, then optimize for EP cost. All plasma loadouts are comparatively pretty cheap.

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The problem is that our current version of plasma weapons can only be used by people wearing power armour and we can't produce that as fast as we can produce brigandine.

 

[TheParadigm]

I was referring to capital weapons! They're like, +1 ep over las weapons.

 

[Candesce]

Our naval Suncannon are actually the same price as Las Lances. We have to go to Fusion Mortars to be more expensive.

Plasma only comes in Standard Naval as opposed to Heavy Naval, though, and filling a Heavy mount with 1.5 Standard Mounts' worth of guns is a hard ask when they cost 2 Standard Mounts' worth of slots in design.

 

[TheParadigm]

I'll bite. Here's what I got.

Wither-classPlasma Destroyer
Carrack Type
2: plasma thruster
1: aethersail
2: holo-field
3: barrier field
1: reinforced hull

naval 1: +1 system slot
naval 2: downgrade to las/plas close in/point defense.
naval 1: fusion artillery
naval 1: suncannon
naval 1: suncannon
naval 1: Grav shear
Heavy 1: Grav Imploder
Heavy 2: Grav-thruster

This ship takes advantage of a few things: Barrier fields are CHEAP, ep wise (5), and a mixed thrust configuration means the aether sail can get shot off and it an still fight while leaving room for other parts. The grav-thruster is obligatory, as with a holo field and a barrier field, it can dance all day at long range.
it could, however, trade -every- weapon slot in for suncannons, for a count of +3 per heavy, which would be a -whithering- broadside. (instead, it mixes in shears and imploders to let the plasma get at chewier systems more easily).
it could probably use more armor, but I see it as either a pack hunter, or pounding to close/mid range after wearing an enemy down.

Edit: a carrack that really wants to can mount 12 whole-ass plasma systems. Thats almost worth considering on its own.

 

[Copperscale]

I'll bite. Here's what I got.

Wither-classPlasma Destroyer
Carrack Type
2: plasma thruster
1: aethersail
2: holo-field
3: barrier field
1: reinforced hull

naval 1: +1 system slot
naval 2: downgrade to las/plas close in/point defense.
naval 1: fusion artillery
naval 1: suncannon
naval 1: suncannon
naval 1: Grav shear
Heavy 1: Grav Imploder
Heavy 2: Grav-thruster

This ship takes advantage of a few things: Barrier fields are CHEAP, ep wise (5), and a mixed thrust configuration means the aether sail can get shot off and it an still fight while leaving room for other parts. The grav-thruster is obligatory, as with a holo field and a barrier field, it can dance all day at long range.
it could, however, trade -every- weapon slot in for suncannons, for a count of +3 per heavy, which would be a -whithering- broadside. (instead, it mixes in shears and imploders to let the plasma get at chewier systems more easily).
it could probably use more armor, but I see it as either a pack hunter, or pounding to close/mid range after wearing an enemy down.

Edit: a carrack that really wants to can mount 12 whole-ass plasma systems. Thats almost worth considering on its own.

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please don't call a destroyer a cruiser .

And yes, if you look at Quillian's fleets, they're all plasma, with a chonky railgun. Very effective weapons for a cheap price.

Also, fusion mortars seem to have a bigger splash effect, like Quilian's weapons, which is probably a good idea.

 

[Alratan]

Although it's a bit late; for the caravel design; is it worth considering something like:

-[] Chassis: Caravel (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[] Convert 1x Weapons to Systems
-[] Weapons: 1x Amplifier Bombard, 1x Macro Imploder, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher Battery, 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
-[] Systems: 3x Aethersails, 1x Point Defense Battery (Suncannons), Holofield, Grav-Shield

The reason I think this is interesting is the potential synergy between the Amplifier Bombard and the Grav Thruster.

Even without that though, it's a ship that basically laughs at most enemy defences.

Particularly if some grav weapons stack. If multiple ships with an amplifier target one enemy, does that amplification level increase, further increasing the effectiveness of any other grav weapons aimed at it?

 

[Candesce]

Although it's a bit late; for the caravel design; is it worth considering something like:

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I'd absolutely be up for something with that kind of weapons mix once we've got a hull plan with more system slots. As it is, the Macro-Imploder is somewhat short ranged, there's no secondary thruster on a ship that's likely to take hits and lose sails, and by the same standard we might want to fit in a hull reinforcement too.

Not actually sure how well Grav Thrusters and Amplifiers pair up; I could easily see the Thruster getting even more Armor Piercing as its bonus, when it's already got enough to not really care about a bit extra. But that's probably a "try it and find out" pairing.

Particularly if some grav weapons stack. If multiple ships with an amplifier target one enemy, does that amplification level increase, further increasing the effectiveness of any other grav weapons aimed at it?

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It's been established that multiple amplifiers stack, but it might just be linearly. Mechanis has mentioned that getting hit by multiple Amplifiers simultaneously sucks.

 

[Xavies]

The hangar is required to ensure torpedo's are not intercepted or shot down (you escort the payload with strike craft)

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So... our Fighters get shot down instead of the Torpedoes by PD? You also condemn our poor Pilots to Escort Quests. Not even the Dark Eldar are capable of such Cruelty.

 

[Randino Treviani]

the point of a caravel torpedo boat is to provide area denial fire to keep enemies at range for longer so it and other ships can kill them with concentrated lance fire over time. granted, it's not going to do so that well with only a single tube and a dozen or fewer caravels to most battles based on their current numbers, but that is the basic goal. we don't need strike craft escorts for them.

 

[Alratan]

I'd absolutely be up for something with that kind of weapons mix once we've got a hull plan with more system slots. As it is, the Macro-Imploder is somewhat short ranged, there's no secondary thruster on a ship that's likely to take hits and lose sails, and by the same standard we might want to fit in a hull reinforcement too.

Not actually sure how well Grav Thrusters and Amplifiers pair up; I could easily see the Thruster getting even more Armor Piercing as its bonus, when it's already got enough to not really care about a bit extra. But that's probably a "try it and find out" pairing.


It's been established that multiple amplifiers stack, but it might just be linearly. Mechanis has mentioned that getting hit by multiple Amplifiers simultaneously sucks.

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Even if the Amplifiers just stack linearly, that means that battle lines of light cruisers with amplifiers+imploders could be disproportionately effective against enemy battleships, potentially hitting a single target like there were many more attacks involved.

Say that amplifiers multiply the effect of gravity, multiplying the damage of an imploder.

That would mean that ten imploder+amplifiers may hit a single target say a hundred times as hard as one imploded+amplifier (roughly), not ten times as hard as would be the case for conventional weapons. Perhaps ninety times as hard.

That would very strongly incentivise making this a standard weapon load out deployed as widely as possible.

Assuming there aren't diminishing returns.

 

[Xavies]

the point of a caravel torpedo boat is to provide area denial fire to keep enemies at range for longer so it and other ships can kill them with concentrated lance fire over time. granted, it's not going to do so that well with only a single tube and a dozen or fewer caravels to most battles based on their current numbers, but that is the basic goal. we don't need strike craft escorts for them.

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True, escorting our Torpedoes is not that necessary. On the other Hand, Torpedoes are not Area Denial Weapons. They are only so useful, because they can ignore Void Shields. That's it. If we can research some Upgrades to take them from Basic, Unguided Munnitions to guided Torpedoes, then they could get interesting. Fatetwisters will still be better for Naval Weapons and our Navy is small enough that we can afford them.

Right now i don't see that much potential for Fighter or Torpedo Swarms, when we have more effective Weapons.

 

[Candesce]

Even if the Amplifiers just stack linearly, that means that battle lines of light cruisers with amplifiers+imploders could be disproportionately effective against enemy battleships, potentially hitting a single target like there were many more attacks involved.

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Yep.

I'm very happy with the Heavy Amplifier Bombard, and if we had the hulls to build brawlers it'd be my default heavy mount weapon.

(I'd be happy with A Dhow or Clipper design using them, too. If we were aiming for new-build designs rather than something to refit our existing cruisers into.)

On the other Hand, Torpedoes are not Area Denial Weapons.

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So you might wish to be thinking about potential synergies with its existing "loads of Lances" design, like, say, a torpedo battery to constrain enemy manunver so it has an easier time shooting them, for example.

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Mechanis has explicitly stated we can use torpedoes to constrain enemy movements and make them easier lance targets. It's why my design for a light cruiser went all-in on torpedoes; we've got a lot of very powerful lance boats in our War Ketches already, and I figured we'd be keeping the Heavy Starlance on our Carracks, too.

 

[Alratan]

True, escorting our Torpedoes is not that necessary. On the other Hand, Torpedoes are not Area Denial Weapons. They are only so useful, because they can ignore Void Shields. That's it. If we can research some Upgrades to take them from Basic, Unguided Munnitions to guided Torpedoes, then they could get interesting. Fatetwisters will still be better for Naval Weapons and our Navy is small enough that we can afford them.

Right now i don't see that much potential for Fighter or Torpedo Swarms, when we have more effective Weapons.

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According to my interpretation of world of QM, torpedoes apparently can do something like this. I can't quite visualise what the mechanism is for how torpedoes without at least terminal guidance can do that; but they do:

While primarily used to constrain enemy maneuvering and break up fleet formations

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Under the Krak torpedo reference.

 

[Alratan]

Yep.

I'm very happy with the Heavy Amplifier Bombard, and if we had the hulls to build brawlers it'd be my default heavy mount weapon.

(I'd be happy with A Dhow or Clipper design using them, too. If we were aiming for new-build designs rather than something to refit our existing cruisers into.)

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I may be missing something, but from what I can see there's no description of the relative range of Amplifier Bombards.

Heavy Grav-Thrust Lances are mention to have equivalent range to other lance weapons, which presumably means long range.

Macro-Imploders function at short and medium range.

Hopefully that would mean that a ship with all three can function at a variety of ranges, although they'd be more effective at short and medium range.

The question is whether being most effective at medium range means you need to be a brawler? What does medium range mean in this context?

This is partially a tactical question, a very manoeuvrable fleet could keep the range in the medium band and stil hopefully be able to dodge or manoeuvre to avoid most incoming fire.

 

[Candesce]

This is partially a tactical question, a very manoeuvrable fleet could keep the range in the medium hand and stil hopefully be able to dodge or manoeuvre to avoid most incoming fire.

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Or a fleet that had a decent amount of battlefield control of some sort or another, to repeatedly create local force concentrations and defeat the enemy in detail.

I really did like the "all in on torpedoes" design for that.

Hopefully joining the Crusade Against Orks will help answer questions like these.

 

[Xavies]

Mechanis has explicitly stated we can use torpedoes to constrain enemy movements and make them easier lance targets. It's why my design for a light cruiser went all-in on torpedoes; we've got a lot of very powerful lance boats in our War Ketches already, and I figured we'd be keeping the Heavy Starlance on our Carracks, too.

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According to my interpretation of world of QM, torpedoes apparently can do something like this. I can't quite visualise what the mechanism is for how torpedoes without at least terminal guidance can do that; but they do:

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Nevermind my ramblings then, let the Void of Space be clogged up with Torpedoes.

 

[Alratan]

Looking at Grav weapons some more and thinking of point defences, I wonder if it's possible to combine them.

For example, have turrets that have an amplifier and an imploder; or even three weapons with an amplifier, a sweeper, and a point singularity projector.

The sweeper grabs the target, the amplifier strengthens the sweeper, and together they lock the target in place relative to the ship long enough for the point singularity field inside the compression field to hit it.

 

[Copperscale]

Looking at Grav weapons some more and thinking of point defences, I wonder if it's possible to combine them.

For example, have turrets that have an amplifier and an imploder; or even three weapons with an amplifier, a sweeper, and a point singularity projector.

The sweeper grabs the target, the amplifier strengthens the sweeper, and together they lock the target in place relative to the ship long enough for the point singularity field inside the compression field to hit it.

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not within the same battery. It came up before.

 

[Alratan]

not within the same battery. It came up before.

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Ah. Shame. Presumably we'd need further Seeker projects to create additional combigrav weapons after we create the Amplifier+Imploder hybrid, if it's even possible

Edit: the Sweeper+Amplifier+Point Singularity Projector combo may be an interesting option for an assault gun or direct fire artillery support in a single vehicle turret.

 

[Randino Treviani]

True, escorting our Torpedoes is not that necessary. On the other Hand, Torpedoes are not Area Denial Weapons. They are only so useful, because they can ignore Void Shields. That's it. If we can research some Upgrades to take them from Basic, Unguided Munnitions to guided Torpedoes, then they could get interesting. Fatetwisters will still be better for Naval Weapons and our Navy is small enough that we can afford them.

Right now i don't see that much potential for Fighter or Torpedo Swarms, when we have more effective Weapons.

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this is one of the literal tactics their good for post fall, as described in the development actions for them. they can be used for other things, and I'd like to do so, but the reason why caravel designs are favoring the heavy torpedo tube that can be fired for an extended duration is for the sake of area denial.

we have Melta torpedoes, which combined with holofield for stealth and put on a destroyer could be used to allow escorts to punch way above their weight class and take out light capitols. while our exotics weapons are certainly stronger, their also in limited supply and we have over 200 destroyers, and their more vulnerable to being destroyed than any other ship because we can't fit proper defenses on them.

I can't quite visualise what the mechanism is for how torpedoes without at least terminal guidance can do that; but they do:

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there detectable munitions that a heavy torpedo tube can launch repeatedly for a long time. have HTT in double digit numbers, point towards enemy, and fire in formation, and suddenly the enemy has dozens of armed high yeild warheads they need to maneuver through or around while under fire to reach your ships. a relatively decent strategy for Orkish Roks for instance.

granted, the model everyone is voting for us kinda subpar, having only a single heavy torpedo tube per caravel, which makes reaching double digits harder than it needs to be. still, better to occasionally have the option to use a tactic than never have it.

 

[Mister Phantom]

Ah. Shame. Presumably we'd need further Seeker projects to create additional combigrav weapons after we create the Amplifier+Imploder hybrid, if it's even possible

Edit: the Sweeper+Amplifier+Point Singularity Projector combo may be an interesting option for an assault gun or direct fire artillery support in a single vehicle turret.

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I don't think singularity projectors can be unified with the other grav weapons as it is a projectile weapon (technically) while the others are directed energy. The most it'll get I think is Sweeper + Amplifier + Imploder + Vibration combo, and maybe Shear as well. Also note that Sweepers only have Heavy and Vehicle scale guns. Thus if I guessed correctly the most extreme grav weapon would be that quintuple unified grav gun and a graviton thruster combi weapon.
Oh and speaking of combi-weapons, should get around to developing those.

 

[Alratan]

I don't think singularity projectors can be unified with the other grav weapons as it is a projectile weapon (technically) while the others are directed energy. The most it'll get I think is Sweeper + Amplifier + Imploder + Vibration combo, and maybe Shear as well. Also note that Sweepers only have Heavy and Vehicle scale guns. Thus if I guessed correctly the most extreme grav weapon would be that quintuple unified grav gun and a graviton thruster combi weapon.
Oh and speaking of combi-weapons, should get around to developing those.

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The idea of the Sweeper+Amplifier+Singularity Projector isn't that the Amplifier makes the Singularity do more damage directly, but that it makes the singularity more likely to hit the target by holding it in place relative to the turret while the singularity projector keeps being pointed at the target to maintain the compression field.

That's the thing about the singularity projector as I read it; that you have to keep pointing the weapon at the target until the singularity reaches it and can be allowed to detonate. A strengthened sweeper weapon makes that much easier as it pins the target in relative place

This makes things much easier as I think it partially covers one of the specific limitations of the projector.

 

[Randino Treviani]

The idea of the Sweeper+Amplifier+Singularity Projector isn't that the Amplifier makes the Singularity do more damage directly, but that it makes the singularity more likely to hit the target by holding it in place relative to the turret while the singularity projector keeps being pointed at the target to maintain the compression field.

That's the thing about the singularity projector as I read it; that you have to keep pointing the weapon at the target until the singularity reaches it and can be allowed to detonate. A strengthened sweeper weapon makes that much easier as it pins the target in relative place

This makes things much easier as I think it partially covers one of the specific limitations of the projector.

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I mean, rather than mud to slow enemies down, an amplified sweeper field produces a sort of steel wall like effect on the fighter that hits it. when enemy strike craft are detonating against your invisible sweeper steel wall a singularity follow up is kind of redundant.