A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[LOLROFL]

I don't think the Fatesheer CIWB is necessary, we should be designing a new strikecraft next turn with Fatesever cannon/cannons to beef up our PD capabilities and a strikecraft with Fatesevers wouldn't just be a good PD asset but would also be useful planet-side as a tankbuster.

Fatesheer CIWB also eats up more System Slots and much of the Fatesheer CIWB's advantages over Fatesever PD are nullified by the fact that the Carrack is still retaining it's Fatetwister batteries which should be superior to Fatesheer's against ships.

The only real benefit left is having Fate based anti-strikecraft and anti-ordinance capabilities for less cost than a PD (+120 Psy-Scopes vs 64) but I would rather we invest those Psy-Scopes into strikecraft which can cover an entire fleet rather than a CIWB that can only cover a part of a fleet.

We have 54 carracks, that is 2700 psy-scopes

Just give them 1 suncannon

Click to shrink...

We actually have 54 (26 Active, 4 Pirate Hunters, 24 damaged) but your point stands.

Anyways, I would advocate for dropping the Heavy Starlance Battery for a Heavy Amplifier and Imploder and drop the Fatesheer CIWB for a Suncannon PD to make up for the 1 less System Slot from converting 3 Weapon Slots Vs Converting 2 Weapon Slots and 1 Heavy Weapon Slot.

We already have a ton of Heavy Starlance's in our fleet as each one of our +100 Ketch's has one. Meanwhile, we can potentially fit up to 3 Starcasters onto our Brig's and that will cost a ton of Starcrystals (22.4k at 1.4k extra Starcrystals per Brig if we go with 3) which we could get from dropping the Carrack's Heavy Starlance Battery (18.9k Starcrystals across 54 Carracks).

While Starlances are powerful their main gimmick is their raw power (high damage and RoF). Raw power is something that Combi-Grav weapons offer and a Heavy Amplifier and Imploder should come close that level of raw power while having the added benefit of bypassing the vast majority of shield types unlike Starlances.

Do plasma drives add any real acceleration on an aethersail equipped ship? I've been proceeding under the theory that they are largely backup drives, not meaningful contributions to flank speed. A bit like, well, a small put-put motor on a sailing ship that's used for getting in and out of harbor.

Click to shrink...

They should, their description says they are less efficient but even then they are still better than the common engines that other races have.

Plasma-Thrusters, which are conventional drive systems that are vastly less efficient than an Æthersail, but also substantially less expensive to produce and significantly less vulnerable to damage from weapons fire. While these are of course far less sophisticated than Æthersails, they are still considerably superior to all but the most sophisticated designs from other races.

Click to shrink...

Considering the fact that they eat up 2 System Slots that suggests that the 2 System Slots are the cost for having a Plasma-Thruster that can come close to an Aethersail's output.

 

[Vehrec]

A bit, yeah, it's still a fourth form of propulsion--and one that'll work even in environments that Aethersails are less efficient with (Directly approaching or going away from the system's primary)

Click to shrink...

They should, their description says they are less efficient but even then they are still better than the common engines that other races have.

Considering the fact that they eat up 2 System Slots that suggests that the 2 System Slots are the cost for having a Plasma-Thruster that can come close to an Aethersail's output.

Click to shrink...

Expounding on my thoughts on engines somewhat: Engines seem to be likely to have sharply diminishing returns-you've got to have one, and two is nice, but having three doesn't triple your acceleration, and beyond that....well there should be a reason nobody mounts nine engines and a dream to fight their foes. The benefits in mounting three or four athersails would be felt, but the floor for mounting engines is probably lower than some of us give credit for if a combat brig is above average with 2 plasma thrusters and 2 aethersails, or a Trebuchet Battlecruiser is 'quite nimble' with three sails.

 

[Captainwolf]

Anyways, I would advocate for dropping the Heavy Starlance Battery for a Heavy Amplifier and Imploder and drop the Fatesheer CIWB for a Suncannon PD to make up for the 1 less System Slot from converting 3 Weapon Slots Vs Converting 2 Weapon Slots and 1 Heavy Weapon Slot

Click to shrink...

I strongly disagree with this. A heavy starlance is going to have much better range than grav imploders, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had better DPS overall since it uses exotics.

We can rely on our allied Zahr-Tan to provide close range crushing, since their ships have combi-grav bombards. I'd rather equip our ships with heavy graviton thruster lances and keep the starlances that are currently mounted

 

[LOLROFL]

Expounding on my thoughts on engines somewhat: Engines seem to be likely to have sharply diminishing returns-you've got to have one, and two is nice, but having three doesn't triple your acceleration, and beyond that....well there should be a reason nobody mounts nine engines and a dream to fight their foes. The benefits in mounting three or four athersails would be felt, but the floor for mounting engines is probably lower than some of us give credit for if a combat brig is above average with 2 plasma thrusters and 2 aethersails, or a Trebuchet Battlecruiser is 'quite nimble' with three sails.

Click to shrink...

Highly doubt that, if you look at the ships fielded by our allies Arach-Qin, Quilan, and Zahr-Tann you will notice that all their big capital ships that have lots of engines all are noted to be more mobile than the norm:

The Thysania class is the pride of Arach-Qin's fleet, a heavy Battleship boasting four heavy Las-Lances, two batteries of standard Las-Lances, and one battery each of Magna-Melta Macro-Blasters and Heavy Torpedo Launchers. With three Æthersails and a pair of plasma engines, these ships boast maneuverability which belies their size and heavily armored hulls.
Equipment:

• 4× Heavy Las-Lance
• 2× Las-Lance Weapon Batteries
• 1× Magna-Melta Macro-Blaster Weapon Battery
• 1× Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Battery
• 3× Æthersails
• 2× Plasma Thrusters
• 6× Hull Reinforcement

Click to shrink...

The Trebuchet is a general purpose heavy warship, equipped with a battery of Heavy Las-Lances, a heavy Torpedo battery, and a battery of Combi-Grav Bombards, as well as quad barrel Turbo-Laser Destructors and Lascannons for point defense. A small transport Bay and two hangers add support capabilities, while a Flare Shield and Pulse Shield protect the ship. Three Aethersails provide propulsion, making the vessel quite nimble.

Click to shrink...

The Trebuchet's description does suggest that 3 Aethersails would be enough to give our Carrack solid maneuverability given the fact that the Trebuchet is a battlecruiser but if we take the Calliplaca's description then you want 3 engines for a cruiser to have "Good" maneuverability.

The Calliplaca class is a generalist workhorse design, carrying two batteries of Las-Lances and Magna-Melta Macro-Blasters and one battery of Heavy Torpedo Launchers, supplemented by a Close-In Weapons Battery of Volcano Cannons and a Lascannon point defense array. The ship also boasts a hanger for three squadrons of strike craft and a deployment bay for a modest Warhost, as well as a moderately reinforced armor belt. Two Æthersails and plasma drives provide good maneuverability for the vessel.

Click to shrink...

Another thing of note is that Quilan's Dragoncruiser which are supposed to be Grand Cruiser's according to the QM aren't noted to have good maneuverability.

The Fafnir class Dragoncruiser is the mainstay of Quilan's small but potent fleet. These ships are designed to whether heavy enemy fire with their heavily reinforced hulls and burn down any threats with their six batteries of Dragon's Breath Plasma Culverins, supported by batteries of Dragonrage Plasma Repeaters to swat down enemy fightercraft and devastate enemy ships at close range in hails of burning starfire.
Equipment:

• 6× Dragon's Breath Plasma Culverin Weapon Batteries
• 2× Dragonrage Plasma Repeater Close In Weapons Battery
• 1× Æthersails
• 2× Plasma Thrusters
• 5× Hull Reinforcement

Click to shrink...

Edit:
Actually, you can see the same thing with our own ships, the Caravel with only 2 Aethersails isn't described as being maneuverable while the Carrack and Brig which both have more than 3 engines are both noted for above average maneuverability.

Refit in great haste, these ships carry a single heavy Las-Lance, two batteries of standard Las-Lances, and a heavy grid of anti-fighter lascannons. However, with only Aethersails for maneuvering and no defense other than the inherent durability of Wraithbone to protect them, these ships are highly vulnerable to being mobility killed.

Click to shrink...

The core strength of your heavy combatants, these ships carry a heavy Starlance and three batteries of Fatetwister Cannons, along with a set of Fatesheer Cannons which can engage fighters or in close-range attacks on other Voidships. With three Aethersails these ships are quite nimble for their size, and the backup plasma drive makes them more difficult to disable.

Click to shrink...

Your sole heavyweight, the Combat Brig mounts a centerline Starcaster Mega-Lance which can destroy most lesser starships in a single hit, and six batteries of Starlances. Batteries of Fatesever Cannons and the ship's own trio of smallcraft squadrons protect the ship from enemy fighters and bombers, while its paired Aethersails and Plasma drives give the ship above-average maneuverability for a battleship, allowing it to bring its deadly mega-lance into action more easily.

Click to shrink...

 

[Randino Treviani]

we have over 25k star crystals already, with another 49k to reclaim with refits over time without stripping carracks. it's worth keeping some manner of starlance weaponry on our cruisers even if we decide to pair down from heavy starlance.

an Imploder amplifier combo is already hitting above it's weight class, it's fine to put them in naval slots rather than heavy naval. it's more than Zahr-Tann bothers with.

I do agree we can afford to swap out the close in, but only to grab two complementing PDA instead. even if we intend to roll an effective fighter model soon, it certainly isn't going to be ready in time for the wyld hunt, and we certainly aren't going to be able to spare the AP to refit both Carracks and some manner of Caravel Carrier to provide cover in suitable numbers. best to not take chances and make sure our exotics investment is safe.

 

[TempestK]

I tend to do the crunchy bits first because it, you know, gives me time to write all that pesky "dialogue" and "descriptions that aren't ass" stuff.
You also aren't actually doing very much, storywise, right now, compared to the crunchy bits of sorting out your army and navy, which are presently in a bad way; As you exhaust low-hanging technological fruit and get your army sorted out, the ratio of Doing Things vs Setting Up To Do Things will almost certainly be increasing.

Click to shrink...

That's fair, sorry for the grumbling. *looks guiltily at my own quest updates that are half-finished* And thank you for the look behind the curtain.

 

[LOLROFL]

I strongly disagree with this. A heavy starlance is going to have much better range than grav imploders, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had better DPS overall since it uses exotics.

We can rely on our allied Zahr-Tan to provide close range crushing, since their ships have combi-grav bombards. I'd rather equip our ships with heavy graviton thruster lances and keep the starlances that are currently mounted

Click to shrink...

The Grav-Weapons bypass the vast majority of shielding types while Starlances still need to work their way through shields so the true DPS comparison is probably a lot more even than you think since the Grav-Weapons will be attacking the hull from the very start.

As far as range goes, Macro Imploders can be used at medium range and Amplifiers don't have their range specified (probably also mid range) so it's not like Grav-Weapons are short ranged either.

Massively scaled-up versions of their lesser cousins, Macro-Imploders are gigantic grav-weapons designed to be used against voidcraft at short and medium ranges.

Click to shrink...

While I would agree that Heavy Starlances probably outrange either Grav-Weapon I don't think the disparity is bad enough to the point where say a regular Starlance would outrange the Heavy versions of the Grav-Weapons so I think it is safe to say that a Carrack wouldn't need to get into close range to use these weapons.

we have over 25k star crystals already, with another 49k to reclaim with refits over time without stripping carracks. it's worth keeping some manner of starlance weaponry on our cruisers even if we decide to pair down from heavy starlance.

an Imploder amplifier combo is already hitting above it's weight class, it's fine to put them in naval slots rather than heavy naval. it's more than Zahr-Tann bothers with.

Click to shrink...

Why is it worth it to keep the Starlances on our cruisers?

We have over 100 Ketch's with Heavy Starlance batteries and our Brigs all have Starcasters and Starlances. Realistically speaking we are never going to deploy a fleet that is lacking in Starlances.

Heck, just look at our current deployed fleets:

Spoiler: Fleets

Fea-Eresh Evacuation Convoy Escorts

• 5 Battle Caravel
• 8 Assault Ketch
• 4 War Ketch
• 4 Nettle Class Destroyer

Val-Terrine Pirate Hunters

• 1 Combat Brig
• 4 Battle Carrack
• 8 Assault Ketch
• 12 Lance Cutter

Webway Scouting Fleets
-Eastern Ways

• 1 Battle Caravel
• 1 Assault Ketch
• 2 Lance Cutter
• 2 Lance Sloop

-Western Ways

• 1 Battle Caravel
• 1 Assault Ketch
• 2 Lance Cutter
• 2 Lance Sloop

-Southeastern Ways

• 1 Battle Caravel
• 1 Assault Ketch
• 2 Lance Cutter
• 2 Lance Sloop

-Southwestern Ways

• 1 Battle Caravel
• 1 Assault Ketch
• 2 Lance Cutter
• 2 Lance Sloop

Every single one of our deployed fleets has at least one Starlance armed ship in it even if we discounted the Carracks (the Pirate hunting fleet actually has more Starlance ships than non-Starlance ships if we include the Carracks), even the scouting fleets where the Starlance is unnecessary.

As far as the Heavy Imploder and Amplifier not being necessary goes, the whole point of using the heavy versions is to make up for the firepower loss from dropping the Heavy Starlance battery, the overpoweredness of that combo is a feature.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Why is it worth it to keep the Starlances on our cruisers?

Click to shrink...

because there twelve times as effective as a las weapon of equivalent size(3 times the raw power, minimum four times the fire rate). that's more raw power than anything we can put into a weapon slot until we finish perfect hybridization, and maybe not even then. no starlance is a significant drop in their ability to down ships overall no matter what else we put into their slots if we are grabbing the proper defenses.

Heck, just look at our current deployed fleets:

Click to shrink...

this isn't about our current deployed fleets or total naval vessels. it's about not dropping the fire power of our ships to significantly while pairing up their defenses because these will be all the ships we have for the first two centuries at least in all likelihood do to the cost difference in building new ships and simple refits while simultaneously doing other things.

As far as the Heavy Imploder and Amplifier not being necessary goes, the whole point of using the heavy versions is to make up for the firepower loss from dropping the Heavy Starlance battery, the overpoweredness of that combo is a feature.

Click to shrink...

a lot of us are in favor of a full defensive complement for the exotics investment we have in the carracks. that requires giving up four weapons batteries to pursue the Heavy Naval Amplifier and Imploder combo, which remains a medium range weapon when we would like our characts capable of all range combat.

a heavy starlance, naval amplifier & Imploder combo, and two fatetwister cannon WB let's it fight well at all range with a variety of effective armament while at least maintaining it's current firepower, and being a great deal better defended as well. later on, depending on how long perfect hybrid Grav guns takes, we could install two PHGGs instead for even more power and effectiveness, and in the meantime we gain plenty of Fatebender Psyscopes for other designs.

 

[Alectai]

By the time Perfect Hybrid Grav-Guns are ready, we'll probably have a bespoke hull to put them in.

 

[Randino Treviani]

By the time Perfect Hybrid Grav-Guns are ready, we'll probably have a bespoke hull to put them in.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely. A grand cruiser hull for some manner of battle cruiser with a trio of perfect hybridized main guns would be quite the effect brawler.

I'm just saying the odds are decent they'll finish before we are done with more than a fifth of our carrack refits. between more easily disabled and destroyed destroyers and frigates being a higher priority, as well as more valuable combat brigs and far lesser firepower caravels.

at roughly fifth in our refit priority overall given various factors, there are decent odds of perfect hybridization completing early enough to be worth iterating a carrack hull and designing a model which has 2 PHGGs instead of a single amplifier and imploder each.

 

[Alectai]

Honestly, I really hope we can eventually get a more efficient way of setting up refits, the fact they're arguably more expensive than complete rebuilds even if the refit is fairly simple is ridiculous. We've got plenty of docks, but the fact that we only get 3 escort hulls per AP refit hurts, bad.

 

[vsh]

We have a perfectly well understood refit goal for a carrack: add survivability to a glass cannon we have. But what's the meta for a caravel? ATM it's a subpar lanceboat, do we want to keep it a lanceboat?

 

[Randino Treviani]

We have a perfectly well understood refit goal for a carrack: add survivability to a glass cannon we have. But what's the meta for a caravel? ATM it's a subpar lanceboat, do we want to keep it a lanceboat?

Click to shrink...

add survivability without sacrificing firepower excessively.

based on it's current impliment, the caravel is a las boat screening vessel for enemy fighters and destroyers.

we could keep it that way, favoring a plasma setup with fusion mortars and suncannons.

other discussed options have favored turning it into a torpedo area denial and long range lance combat focused ship which swaps some of it's naval weapons slots for some combination of defensive options.

lastly there has been some talk of turning it into a carrier, though I haven't bothered to retain much of those discussions.

 

[vsh]

based on it's current impliment, the caravel is a las boat screening vessel for enemy fighters and destroyers.

we could keep it that way, favoring a plasma setup with fusion mortars and suncannons.

Click to shrink...

I think it's a bit too fragile for that. For screen/brawler capitals we gonna want new hulls, our current are much more tailored towards glass cannon kites, even with all the shields. Given our and our allies fleet composition, I think it's fine if we don't do screen capitals at all and rely on allies for the next century or so.

other discussed options have favored turning it into a torpedo area denial and long range lance combat focused ship which swaps some of it's naval weapons slots for some combination of defensive options.

Click to shrink...

I can get behind this idea. That's a useful role, it doesn't suffer too much from the hull drawbacks and doesn't get obsolete with new hulls.

lastly there has been some talk of turning it into a carrier, though I haven't bothered to retain much of those discussions.

Click to shrink...

No, that doesn't work. Too few system slots, too many weapon slots.

 

[Randino Treviani]

No, that doesn't work. Too few system slots, too many weapon slots.

Click to shrink...

Agreed. That's precisely the reason I haven't payed them any mind.

 

[Skjadir]

Honestly, I really hope we can eventually get a more efficient way of setting up refits, the fact they're arguably more expensive than complete rebuilds even if the refit is fairly simple is ridiculous. We've got plenty of docks, but the fact that we only get 3 escort hulls per AP refit hurts, bad.

Click to shrink...

I do hope we get the option like our allies seem to get where they can more or less instantly send a large group of ships into the shipyard at once for repairs and retrofits.

As that is an area that we seem to play under different rules so to speak than them and not in our favor by the looks of it.

 

[Randino Treviani]

[ ] Plan Caravel Dark Javelin
-[] Light Capitol
--[] Swap 2 weapon slots for 2 system slots
-[] Equipment: 10 system slots, 2 weapon slots, 1 heavy weapon slot
--[] 2 × Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Batteries
--[] 1 × Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance Weapon Battery
-[] System Slot 10/10
--[] 2 × Æthersails 2 SS
--[] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[] 1 × Graviton Thruster Lance Point Defense Battery 1 SS
--[] 1 × Holo-Field 2 SS
--[] 1 × Grav-Shield 3 SS

[ ] Plan Caravel Solar Wrath
-[] Light Capitol
--[] Swap 1 heavy weapon slots for 2 system slots
-[] Equipment: 10 system slots, 2 weapon slots, 1 heavy weapon slot
--[] 2 × Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Batteries
--[] 2 × Macro-Suncannon Weapon Batteries
-[] System Slot 10/10
--[] 2 × Æthersails 2 SS
--[] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[] 1 × Suncannon Point Defense Battery 1 SS
--[] 1 × Holo-Field 2 SS
--[] 1 × Grav-Shield 3 SS

@vsh have some caravel torpedo boats for you. One that focuses on a penetration weapon and one that's more of a standard hull melter.

 

[IronFist]

Vote open... time to dig up some plans.

There are a lot of plans, and i'm lost.

Here's a collation of most of them:
[ ] Plan Caravel Dark Javelin
-[] Light Capitol
--[] Swap 2 weapon slots for 2 system slots
-[] Equipment: 10 system slots, 2 weapon slots, 1 heavy weapon slot
--[] 2 × Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Batteries
--[] 1 × Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance Weapon Battery
-[] System Slot 10/10
--[] 2 × Æthersails 2 SS
--[] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[] 1 × Graviton Thruster Lance Point Defense Battery 1 SS
--[] 1 × Holo-Field 2 SS
--[] 1 × Grav-Shield 3 SS

[ ] Plan Caravel Solar Wrath
-[] Light Capitol
--[] Swap 1 heavy weapon slots for 2 system slots
-[] Equipment: 10 system slots, 2 weapon slots, 1 heavy weapon slot
--[] 2 × Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Batteries
--[] 2 × Macro-Suncannon Weapon Batteries
-[] System Slot 10/10
--[] 2 × Æthersails 2 SS
--[] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[] 1 × Suncannon Point Defense Battery 1 SS
--[] 1 × Holo-Field 2 SS
--[] 1 × Grav-Shield 3 SS

[ ] Plan Star Citadel Carracks # 2
-[ ] Light Capital #2
--[ ] Swap 2 weapon slots and 1 heavy weapon slot for 4 system slots.
-[ ] Equipment: 12 system slots. 4 weapon slots and 1 heavy weapon slot.
--[ ] 1 × Heavy Naval Starlance Weapon Battery
--[ ] 1 × Imploder Bombard Naval Weapon Battery
--[ ] 1 × Grand Macro Amplifier Bombard Naval Weapon Battery
--[ ] 2 × Fatetwister Cannon Naval Weapon Batteries
-[ ] System Slots 12/12
--[ ] 3 × Æthersails 3 SS
--[ ] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[ ] 1 × Point Defense Spike Cannon Weapon Battery 1 SS
--[ ] 1 × Point Defense Suncannon Weapon Battery 1 SS
--[ ] 1 × Hollow Field 2 SS
--[ ] 1 × Grace Shield 3 SS

[ ] War Carrack High Impact Refit
-[ ] Chassis: Carrak (+8 Systems, +6 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons),
-[ ] 1 weapon slot traded for 1 system slot.
-[ ] Weapons: 3x Fatetwister Cannon weapons batteries, 5x Macro-Suncannons, 1x Heavy Starlance (1 heavy weapon slot mounts three Suncannons)
-[ ] Systems: 3x Aethersails, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Cannon Close-In Weapons Battery, Holofield

[ ] War Carrack
-[ ] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[ ] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[ ] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 4x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries
-[ ] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Close In Weapons Battery, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield,

[] Line Caravel refit
-[] weapons
--[] 1 heavy weapon battery: Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
--[] 1 weapons battery: Heavy Torpedo Launcher
--[] 1 weapons battery: Spike Macrocannon
--[] 2 weapons batteries: 2 Macro-Suncannons
-[] systems
--[] 2 Æthersails
--[] Holo-Field
--[] Grav-Shield
--[] 1 Spike Point Defense Battery

[] Black Horizon
-[] Clipper
-[] 1x Holo-Field
-[] 1x Grav Shield
-[] 3x Æthersail
-[] 1x Plasma-Thruster
-[] 1x Suncannon PD
-[] 1x Reinforced Hull
-[] 4x Macro-Suncannon
-[] 1x Gravetic Amplifier Chieorovile
-[] 1x Macro-Imploder Chieorovile

[ ] War Caravel
-[ ] Battle Caravel Refit (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] 2x Naval Las Lance
-[ ] 1x Heavy Las Lance
-[ ] 2x lascannon PD batteries
-[ ] 2x Aethersails
-[ ] Remove 1x Lascannon PD battery
-[ ] Add 1x Holofield, 1x Grav shield, 1x Naval Suncannon Battery, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher

[ ] War Caravel
-[ ] Battle Caravel Refit (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] 2x Naval Las Lance
-[ ] 1x Heavy Las Lance
-[ ] 2x lascannon PD batteries
-[ ] 2x Aethersails
-[ ] Remove 1x Lascannon PD battery, all Las lances
-[ ] Add 1x Holofield, 1x Grav shield, 3x Naval Suncannon Battery, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher, 1x Heavy graviton thruster lance

[] Ironthorn Escort Carrier
- [] Clipper hill
- [] Plasma-Thruster
- [] Æthersail X 2
- [] Hanger (3 Squadrons) X 4
- [] Holo-Field
- [] Grav- Shield
- [] Point-defense battery (point singularity)
- [] Point Singularity Projector Carronade X 2
- [] Fusion Carronade X 2
- [] Macro-Imploder Chieorovile
- [] Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance

[] Ironthorn Escort Carrier, More Defense version.
- [] Clipper hill
- [] Plasma-Thruster
- [] Æthersail X 2
- [] Reinforced hull
- [] Hanger (3 Squadrons) X 4
- [] Holo-Field
- [] Grav- Shield
- [] Refund 1 Heavy weapons slot
- [] Point-defense battery (point singularity)
- [] Point-defense battery (point singularity)
- [] Graviton Thruster Lance X 2
- [] Fusion Carronade X 2
- [] Macro-Imploder Chieorovile

[ ] Cancer-class Defense Cruiser
-[ ] Chassis: Clipper (+12 Systems, +4 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] Convert 1x Weapons and 1x Heavy Weapons to 3 Systems
-[ ] Weapons: 2x Naval Suncannon Batteries, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher Battery, 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
-[ ] Systems: 3x Aethersails (3), 1x Point Defense Battery (1), Holofield (2), 2x Grav-Shield (6), Barrier Field (3)

[ ] Battle Caravel Mk2
-[ ] Chassis: Caravel (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] Weapons: 2x Las Lances, 2x Spike Macrocannon Battery, 1x Heavy Las Lance
-[ ] Systems: 2x Aethersails, 2x Lascannon Point Defense Battery, Holofield, Reinforced Hull

[ ] Unmamed Little bit of everything Cruiser
-[ ] Chassis: Clipper (+12 Systems, +4 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] Convert 1x Weapons to 1 Systems
-[ ] Weapons: 2x Naval Suncannon Batteries, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher Battery, 1x Gravetic Amplifier Chieorovile, 1x Macro-Imploder Chieorovile
-[ ] Systems: 3x Aethersails (3), 1x Hanger (3 Squadrons), 1x Point Defense Battery (1), 1x Holofield (2), 1x Grav-Shield (3), 1x Barrier Field (3)

[ ] Hura Crepitans Caravel refit
-[] Caravel hull
-[] 4x Heavy Torpedo Batteries
-[] 1x Heavy Grav Thruster Lance
-[] 3x Æthersails
-[] 1x Holo-Field
-[] 1x Suncannon PD
-[] Transport Bay (Large, 5 Warhosts)

[] Saccharum class Light Cruiser (8 System | 4 Weapon Batteries | 1 Heavy Weapon Battery)
-[] 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance -1 Heavy Weapon Slot
-[] 2x Macro-Suncannon Weapon Batteries - 2 Weapon Slots
-[] 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher - 1 Weapon Slot
-[] Trade 1x Weapon Slot for 1x System Slot
-[] 1x Suncannon PD -1 System Slot
-[] 3x Æthersail - 3 System slots
-[] 1x Holo-Field - 2 System Slots
-[] 1x Grav-Shield - 3 System Slots

[] Velutina class Cruiser (8 System | 6 Weapon Batteries | 2 Heavy Weapon Battery)
-[] 1x Gravetic Amplifier Chieorovile -1 Heavy Weapon Slot
-[] 1x Macro-Imploder Chieorovile -1 Heavy Weapon Slot
-[] 3x Fatetwister Cannon Weapon Batteries -3 Weapon Slots
-[] Trade 3x Weapon Slots for 3x System Slots
-[] 1x Suncannon PD - 1 System Slot
-[] 4x Æthersail - 4 System slot
-[] 1x Holo-Field - 2 System Slots
-[] 1x Grav-Shield - 3 System Slots
-[] 1x Hangar - 1 System Slot

[ ] Solar Dragon
-[ ] Chassis: Carrak (+8 Systems, +6 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] Weapons: 2x Fusion Carronades, 4x Macro-Suncannon, 2x Heavy Grav Thruster Lances
-[ ] Systems: 2x Aethersails, 1x Suncannon Point Defense Battery , Holofield, Barrier Field

 

[vsh]

Dark Javelin looks right. I could also agree with a lanceboat of the same design.

 

[F0lkL0re]

[X] Plan Line Caravel refit
-[X] weapons
--[X] 1 heavy weapon battery: Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
--[X] 1 weapons battery: Heavy Torpedo Launcher
--[X] 1 weapons battery: Spike Macrocannon
--[X] 1 weapons battery: Macro-Suncannons
--[X] Trade 1 weapons battery for a systems slot
-[X] systems
--[X] 3 Æthersails
--[X] Holo-Field
--[X] Grav-Shield
--[X] 1 Spike Point Defense Battery

[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics

EDIT: swapped a weapons battery for an Æthersails

 

[vsh]

[X] Line Caravel refit

Click to shrink...

Definitely a lot better than our current caravel, so I'm good with it winning but
- slow-ish (2 engines for a capital ship is slower than usual for eldar)
- prone to be mobility killed
- need to close in to be effective while being slow-ish and prone to be mobility killed

Swapping a couple batteries for a plasma thruster or macrobatteries for long-range weapons (lances/torpedoes) I think should make it a better ship, despite losing a lot of firepower and/or versatility.

 

[Skjadir]

[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics
-[X] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[X] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[X] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 3x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries, 1x Macro-Suncannons
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Close In Weapons Battery, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield

All slots used and did not throw on an extra psy scope cost for retrofitting them by adding a 4 Fatetwister cannon battery. Went with a Sun macro cannon instead.

 

[F0lkL0re]

Definitely a lot better than our current caravel, so I'm good with it winning but
- slow-ish (2 engines for a capital ship is slower than usual for eldar)
- prone to be mobility killed
- need to close in to be effective while being slow-ish and prone to be mobility killed

Swapping a couple batteries for a plasma thruster or macrobatteries for long-range weapons (lances/torpedoes) I think should make it a better ship, despite losing a lot of firepower and/or versatility.

Click to shrink...

Well currently it has the same engines as the original so the question is what are we willing to drop for what kind of engine a plasma engine would require two slots so that would be the heavy slot or two normal slots and an extra sail would only require a single normal battery so maybe drop one suncannon for an extra sail?

 

[Randino Treviani]

[X] Plan Caravel Dark Javelin
-[X] Light Capitol
--[X] Swap 2 weapon slots for 2 system slots
-[X] Equipment: 10 system slots, 2 weapon slots, 1 heavy weapon slot
--[X] 2 × Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Batteries
--[X] 1 × Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance Weapon Battery
-[X] System Slot 10/10
--[X] 2 × Æthersails 2 SS
--[X] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[X] 1 × Graviton Thruster Lance Point Defense Battery 1 SS
--[X] 1 × Holo-Field 2 SS
--[X] 1 × Grav-Shield 3 SS

Powerful armor penetrating lance weapon.

Two Torpedo Launchers for more effective area denial.

Plasma Thruster because ships with only Aethersails are easier to mobility kill.

Holo Field and Grav Shield for good defensive combo.

[X] Plan Star Citadel Carracks # 2
-[X] Light Capital #2
--[X] Swap 2 weapon slots and 1 heavy weapon slot for 4 system slots.
-[X] Equipment: 12 system slots. 4 weapon slots and 1 heavy weapon slot.
--[X] 1 × Heavy Naval Starlance Weapon Battery
--[X] 1 × Imploder Bombard Naval Weapon Battery
--[X] 1 × Grand Macro Amplifier Bombard Naval Weapon Battery
--[X] 2 × Fatetwister Cannon Naval Weapon Batteries
-[X] System Slots 12/12
--[X] 3 × Æthersails 3 SS
--[X] 1 × Plasma Thruster 2 SS
--[X] 1 × Point Defense Spike Cannon Weapon Battery 1 SS
--[X] 1 × Point Defense Suncannon Weapon Battery 1 SS
--[X] 1 × Holo Field 2 SS
--[X] 1 × Grav Shield 3 SS

Good vessel for showing off exotic weaponry during wyld hunt to impress Saim-Hann.

High defense to protect exotic investment.

Good at all ranges.

Still more than enough firepower, but adds 114 Fatebender Psyscopes to our stores per refit.

 

[IronFist]

[x] Saccharum class Light Cruiser (8 System | 4 Weapon Batteries | 1 Heavy Weapon Battery)

[x] Plan Line Caravel refit

[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics

[X] Cepheid-class Light Cruiser
[X] Plan Caravel Dark Javelin

edit: All the caravels

[X] War Carrack, with some scope reclamation
-[X] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[X] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[X] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 2x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries, 2x Fusion Carronade
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Suncannon point defence battery, 1x Hangar, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield