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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Mechanis said:
Basically, with the LGV you have upgraded from your equivalent of this:


to this:

It's still not really a proper tank yet, but has at least become somewhat tank-adjacent.
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That's not tank-adjacent, that's TRUCK-adjacent.

If your engines are exposed from every angle and poorly armored, you have something that is capable of protecting infantry from stray bullets or a small-arms ambush but will still be knocked out by anything heavier than an assault rifle.
 
LOLROFL said:
Your math is still wrong, 288/6 is 48 not 93
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Hmm. It is. My bad. Still, that only hammers in the point that we aren't going to have enough fighters for all our caravels for quite some time.
LOLROFL said:
Your also very inconsistent with insisting that your Carrack design which costs more Starcrystals that it refunds would get support but my Brig design which does the same wouldn't.
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My original carrack design cost 150 starcrystals more on a design with 350 starting starcrystals. A 42.85 percents increase roughly. My new one costs 50 Starcrystals. A 14.28% increase. My designs spent 8.1k and 2.7k respectively to refit 54 warships. They also refund 150 psyscopes for a gain of 8.1k.

Your naval vessels spend 2.4k for a 141.17% increase, and a total expenditure of 38.4k, to refit 16 warships. See vast canyon dividing those two as a tolerable expense? I'm proposing spending less than a tenth to less than a thirtieth of our plausible storage. Your saying we shouldn't spend that because it's feasible we may spend 4.1k short of nearly half our stores on combat brigs.

I never pretended mine didn't spend starcrystals, I proposed it as a tolerable and conservative expense of starcrystals on a well defended ship, which the theoretical combat brig model you use as justification for shutting down my carrack model is certainly not, based on previous discussions. Starfall is a design with decent odds of getting support, even if it may fail.
 
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LOLROFL said:
Starlances and Fatetwisters are supposed to be the tertiary weapons of the Dominion so even if Arach-Qin's design is radically different there should still be plenty of slots for Fatetwisters and Starlances.

The Sword of Vaul we could have picked during Faction Creation had a bunch of unspecified Primary and Secondary batteries aside from it's known tertiary batteries of Fatetwisters and Starlance variants which suggests that the Fatetwister and Starlance armaments are probably a bit more consistent compared to the other weapons.
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Sure, but what I'm saying is that, depending on where Arach-Qin's Sword of Vaul falls on the spectrum between "literally a gigantic Force Sword with some guns and engines" and "the one that had grav-weapons coming out the ears", we could be looking at very different amounts of slots we need or want to put new guns in.
Vaul save our wallets if we get one that's a cube with broken energy weapons strapped on everywhere they'll fit (just kidding, he won't help us, he's dead).
 
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See Go Reach said:
what I'm saying is that depending on where Arach-Qin's Sword of Vaul falls on the spectrum between "literally a gigantic Force Sword with some guns and engines" and "the one that had grav-weapons coming out the ears" we could be looking at very different amounts of slots we need or want to put new guns in.
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The one we could have bought in faction creation was some kind of massive beam boat; by the name, Arach-Qin's is some kind of stealth ambush boat.

Probably heavy on grav-weapons and missiles given their existing techs, they probably started with combi-grav rather than researching it in game and that has implications that they were using it for something.
 
Candesce said:
The one we could have bought in faction creation was some kind of massive beam boat; by the name, Arach-Qin's is some kind of stealth ambush boat.

Probably heavy on grav-weapons and missiles given their existing techs, they probably started with combi-grav rather than researching it in game and that has implications that they were using it for something.
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Arach-Qin is the melta and torpedo craft world, hence ambush since there both more effective at shorter range. Zahr-Tann is the grav and turbo laser one, though they both seem to balance things out with las weapons to save on costs.
Mechanis said:
The Thysania class is the pride of Arach-Qin's fleet, a heavy Battleship boasting four heavy Las-Lances, two batteries of standard Las-Lances, and one battery each of Magna-Melta Macro-Blasters and Heavy Torpedo Launchers. With three Æthersails and a pair of plasma engines, these ships boast maneuverability which belies their size and heavily armored hulls.
Equipment:
  • 4× Heavy Las-Lance
  • 2× Las-Lance Weapon Batteries
  • 1× Magna-Melta Macro-Blaster Weapon Battery
  • 1× Heavy Torpedo Launcher Weapon Battery
  • 3× Æthersails
  • 2× Plasma Thrusters
  • 6× Hull Reinforcement
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Alratan said:
My view is that what I quote below suggests that there's something else happening under the hood. A design with the weapon slots the Fata Morgana has is optimised to do a specific job. I suspect it will be very good at that job and less good if pushed outside its comfort zone.
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The guy you quoted said "dropping 2 vehicle weapon slots for 8 System Slots" for a reason.

If you needed a bunch more System Slots for other stuff you'd need to 12 System Slots worth of stuff for only 8 System Slots to play with (losing 25% there), that's what's happening "under the hood".
Randino Treviani said:
My original carrack design cost 150 starcrystals more on a design with 350 starting starcrystals. A 42.85 percents increase roughly. My new one costs 50 Starcrystals. A 14.28% increase. My designs spent 8.1k and 2.7k respectively to refit 54 warships. They also refund 150 psyscopes for a gain of 8.1k.

Your naval vessels spend 2.4k for a 141.17% increase, and a total expenditure of 38.4k, to refit 16 warships. See vast canyon dividing those two as a tolerable expense? I'm proposing spending less than a tenth to less than a thirtieth of our plausible storage. Your saying we shouldn't spend that because it's feasible we may spend 4.1k short of nearly half our stores on combat brigs.

I never pretended mine didn't spend starcrystals, I proposed it as a tolerable and conservative expense of starcrystals on a well defended ship, which the theoretical combat brig model you use as justification for shutting down my carrack model is certainly not, based on previous discussions. Starfall is a design with decent odds of getting support, even if it may fail.
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My initial proposal was to add an extra Starcaster to the Brig while replacing the 6 regular Starlances it's armed with, that's a expenditure of 400 Starcrystals per hull for a total of 6.4k Starcrystals.

The triple Starcaster build is a suggestion that I would favor but my primary goal is at least a double Starcaster Brig because I recognize that 3 Starcasters is very expensive.
LOLROFL said:
Next up we've got 16 Combat Brigs with an empty Special Weapon slot each for another 6.4k Starcrystals if we swap out the regular Starlances, more if we don't or go with my suggestion of refitting it with 3 Starcasters instead of 2.
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There is a reason I said "high end" for the triple Starlance build, I am well aware of the fact that people might not be willing to back it.

Rereading it again and that 2.4k figure is actually a serious overestimation since that would actually be the cost for 4 Starcasters. 3 Starcasters would only be 1.6k Starcrystals per hull for a total of 25.6k Starcrystals over 16 hulls.
LOLROFL said:
As for Starlances, a high end Starcaster investment for our Combat Brig refit (3 Starcasters) will cost us 2.4k per hull for a grand total of 38.4k. Any future Battleship we design will probably have similar levels of investment just due to how powerful Starcasters are and we'll probably have that available by turn 20 or be building a variation the refitted Brigs for 3k apiece.

3 Starcasters on battleship should basically turns it into a battleship sized Turbolaser Destructor that can melt small fleets on it's lonesome or delete other battleships in moments.
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@Mechanis So why is Arach-Qin willingly surrendering their sword of vaul class ship? I know our agreement was to repair their fleet in exchange for it, but it seems like a priceless relic to give up especially to a larger craftworld like ourselves.
 
LOLROFL said:
The guy you quoted said "dropping 2 vehicle weapon slots for 8 System Slots" for a reason.

If you needed a bunch more System Slots for other stuff you'd need to 12 System Slots worth of stuff for only 8 System Slots to play with (losing 25% there), that's what's happening "under the hood".
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My point was that there may be more to designs that just number of slots. Something initially built as a beat stick with a secondary focus in anti-air and artillery may not make a great transport if we trade in the weapon slots, or even if we iterate the design.

That's because it was built from the start to be a tank, so it's tank shaped not APC shaped.

I think that's what Mechanis means when he said that a design built from the start with multiple vehicle weapon slots if a specialised not generalist design.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I know our agreement was to repair their fleet in exchange for it, but it seems like a priceless relic to give up especially to a larger craftworld like ourselves.
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Because both their shipyards and their fleet were totaled. They're desperate.

Also, they may have been tossing us a hot potato - consider that we weren't the only ones Biel-Tan was raiding for relics, and that Arach-Qin is a lot smaller than we are.
 
LOLROFL said:
My initial proposal was to add an extra Starcaster to the Brig while replacing the 6 regular Starlances it's armed with, that's a expenditure of 400 Starcrystals per hull for a total of 6.4k Starcrystals.

The triple Starcaster build is a suggestion that I would favor but my primary goal is at least a double Starcaster Brig because I recognize that 3 Starcasters is very expensive.
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Agreed. We can certainly afford that. Though Mechanis recently relabeled it 14 starlances and discussion have favored keeping those. It's definitely going to be a compromise deal I think.

Between that and the Starfall Mk2 we would only spend 9.1k, an doable task.
LOLROFL said:
Rereading it again and that 2.4k figure is actually a serious overestimation since that would actually be the cost for 4 Starcasters. 3 Starcasters would only be 1.6k Starcrystals per hull for a total of 25.6k Starcrystals over 16 hulls.
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Yeah that's a bit tougher unfortunately.
Professor Vesca said:
@Mechanis So why is Arach-Qin willingly surrendering their sword of vaul class ship? I know our agreement was to repair their fleet in exchange for it, but it seems like a priceless relic to give up especially to a larger craftworld like ourselves.
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I think that like our hypothetical sword of Vaul Class there model is operating with a quarter or less weapon batteries given it would have also lost it's exotics weapons as well, and the added cost of refitting to incorporate none blessing stealth tech. For them that would could well be a project stretching across the next thousand years, before the century or more it could take to fix their docks. It's too big a project for them, so they traded it to take centuries off their fleets recovery time.
 
Just based on the name of the ship, Serpent that Strikes from the Shadows with no Warning, this Vaul Class ship is likely to feature massive amounts of stealth tech. And honestly? Thats way more funny then our SoV ships which was just metric fuck loads of guns. Imagine getting jumped by a ship the size of a small city yet is still undetectable.
 
Professor Vesca said:
@Mechanis So why is Arach-Qin willingly surrendering their sword of vaul class ship? I know our agreement was to repair their fleet in exchange for it, but it seems like a priceless relic to give up especially to a larger craftworld like ourselves.
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Their fleet is pretty much gone as are their shipyards.

While they did wipe out an Extremis level Ork planet plus a few lower threat level ones there are still 3 other Extremis level Ork worlds in our area plus some other lower threat level ones.
The Fleets of Arach-Qin said:
They are few. They are battered, scarred and limping, yet for all their horrific damage, they remain unbroken. These are the most wounded of Arach-Qin's survivors: Two Thysania class battleships. One Coscinocera class Heavy Cruiser. Eight Calliplaca class Cruisers. Two Phalaros class light cruisers. Five Terncladus class raiders. Twelve Synempora class frigates. Twenty two Argema class Destroyers.

The battered survivors of a fleet that once numbered in the thousands. More are held in reserve, yes—yet the devastation that proud fleet has endured is all too clear.
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They used to have several thousand ships before this but they are pretty much all damaged to some degree now.

Given the fact that repairing their shipyards can take up to 6 Bonesinger actions at once for an unspecified amount of time while fixing Meros's engines could only take up 4 Bonesinger actions (we spend 3) the damage must be truly devastating since Meros is significantly bigger than Arach-Quin going by the images Mechanis posted.
The Salvation of Meros: The Bonesinger
[ ] Dispatch aid to Meros (1 point each, max 4)
Send a party to embattled Meros to speed their engine repair, reducing the time they spend in danger from the Orks
The Shipyards of Arach-Qin
Whilst not specifically a part of your terms with the smaller Craftworld, sending a party—or several—to assist them in rebuilding their yard capacity would likely generate no small amount of gratitude, for the despoilment of the Ork is something you have some amount of experience with.
[ ] Assist Arach-Qin with rebuilding their Shipyard (1 point each, max 6)
Send parties to assist Arach-Qin with the monumental task of rebuilding its destroyed shipyards.
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Given the fact that Meros took around 3 turns (repairs started 970.M29 and were done 986.M29 so ~16 years) to fix at 3 Bonesinger actions a turn repairing Arach-Qin's Shipyards if they take a comparable amount of time and investment (let's say 3 turns and 4BAP a turn to reflect the 75% investment Meros got) that would be equivalent to most of a turn's worth of our BAP (12/15).

We're supposed to have comparable Industrial Output to a Major Craftworld so a Minor Craftworld like Arach-Qin would probably take much longer to fix their shipyards and even longer before they've repaired their ships.

Not a particular pleasant situation to be in given how close they are to a Major Ork Warlord and Freeboota hub.

Edit:
Just took a look at how long it's taking to repair their ships and one of their battleships was so badly damaged that it'll take us 8 Turns to repair it from start to finish.

I know we're only spending 1BAP to fix it and their other ships but just imagine how agonizingly long it would take them with their Minor Craftworld BAP output.
 
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LOLROFL said:
Their fleet is pretty much gone as are their shipyards.

While they did wipe out an Extremis level Ork planet plus a few lower threat level ones there are still 3 other Extremis level Ork worlds in our area plus some other lower threat level ones.

They used to have several thousand ships before this but they are pretty much all damaged to some degree now.

Given the fact that repairing their shipyards can take up to 6 Bonesinger actions at once for an unspecified amount of time while fixing Meros's engines could only take up 4 Bonesinger actions (we spend 3) the damage must be truly devastating since Meros is significantly bigger than Arach-Quin going by the images Mechanis posted.

Given the fact that Meros took around 3 turns (repairs started 970.M29 and were done 986.M29 so ~16 years) to fix at 3 Bonesinger actions a turn repairing Arach-Qin's Shipyards if they take a comparable amount of time and investment (let's say 3 turns and 4BAP a turn to reflect the 75% investment Meros got) that would be equivalent to most of a turn's worth of our BAP (12/15).

We're supposed to have comparable Industrial Output to a Major Craftworld so a Minor Craftworld like Arach-Qin would probably take much longer to fix their shipyards and even longer before they've repaired their ships.

Not a particular pleasant situation to be in given how close they are to a Major Ork Warlord and Freeboota hub.

Edit:
Just took a look at how long it's taking to repair their ships and one of their battleships was so badly damaged that it'll take us 8 Turns to repair it from start to finish.

I know we're only spending 1BAP to fix it and their other ships but just imagine how agonizingly long it would take them with their Minor Craftworld BAP output.
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Basically, see those "mandibles" that are nearly as large as the nearby hab-bubbles? yeah, those are just
rubble​
right now. (the main structures are intact. all the actual working bits? not so much.)

The Sequence of events there is basically:
Helmsork about to try flying down the trench with a Very Large Rok said:
"Eh, it'll fit."
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Narrator Voice said:
"It did not, in fact, fit."
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RandomTechPriest said:
Just based on the name of the ship, Serpent that Strikes from the Shadows with no Warning, this Vaul Class ship is likely to feature massive amounts of stealth tech. And honestly? Thats way more funny then our SoV ships which was just metric fuck loads of guns. Imagine getting jumped by a ship the size of a small city yet is still undetectable.
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Unfortunately, that stealth may have been blessing or exotics based since they don't have it in any of their existing ship equipment list, which means it's just a battleship with melta weapons.
 
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Mechanis said:
Basically, see those "mandibles" that are nearly as large as the nearby hab-bubbles? yeah, those are just
rubble​
right now. (the main structures are intact. all the actual working bits? not so much.)

The Sequence of events there is basically:
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Holy shit, that must have been one of the Battleship+ Roks, no wonder they couldn't shoot it down before it crashed.

I can see why they got so ripshit mad that they totaled their fleet in an effort to kill as many Orks as possible.

Do they have a similar outlook regarding Orks as we do and if they do was that something they had originally or did they develop that as a result of this?
 
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Randino Treviani said:
Unfortunately, that stealth may have been blessing or exotics based since they don't have it in any of their existing ship equipment list, which means it's just a battleship with melta weapons.
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Oh yea, no doubt a large majority of its stealth capabilities are gone but some probably remain. Even if 90% of its stealth systems are down or destroyed that which remains are likely to be the most advanced in the galaxy.
 
RandomTechPriest said:
Oh yea, no doubt a large majority of its stealth capabilities are gone but some probably remain. Even if 90% of its stealth systems are down or destroyed that which remains are likely to be the most advanced in the galaxy.
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Kinda doubtful. There fleet is overall the same sort of melta and torpedo fleet, but their are no examples of stealth tech. Clearly they couldn't afford it in creation. It explains why the battle was so rough.
Alratan said:
And possibly available for reverse engineering...
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Yes, there is probably relic tech in the hull we can try and get going after researching it.
 
Randino Treviani said:
There fleet is overall the same sort of melta and torpedo fleet, but their are no examples of stealth tech. Clearly they couldn't afford it in creation. It explains why the battle was so rough.
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It could simply be that all their cloaking tech was lost and they have been set back to square 1. Stealth is the perfect way to get close in and actually use those meltas and torpedoes after all.
 
Randino Treviani said:
with another 37.8k due from War ketch refits, 11.52k from bright eagle. The extra Fatebender psyscopes will come in handy later when we refit the sword of vaul class.
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I'm a bit nervous about your numbers here. Mostly because we are getting those Starcrystals back in the form of finished products. We don't know the price in exotics we will need to pay to convert, say, a bunch of Starblaster Carbines into a Starcarver, but I have to imagine that it will be steep indeed, assuming such conversions are even possible. The Aeldari Dominion at its height probably wasn't too focused on recycling, and that's where these designs originated.
 
When it comes to a true multi-role hauler chassis, I'm thinking we put together something like:

Beithíoch-Class Multirole Chassis
-[] Fully Recessed Plasma Turbine, Enhance Payload (+17 EP, -2 Slots)
-[] Power Plant : Starlight Reactor (+4 EP, +3 Slots)
-[] Strength x4 (+4 EP, +8 Slots)
-[] Manuevering x1 (+1 EP)
-[] Medium Armor (+5 EP)
-[] Crew Spaces: Fighting Compartment
-[] Weapons Mounts: Default
-[] Basic Defense : Refractor Field (+2 EP)
-[] Basic Defense : Deflector Field [EXPERIMENTAL] (+7 EP)
-[] Defense System : Holo-Field (+16 EP, -2 Slots)
-[] Slot Configuration: 31x Free System Slot
-[] Total EP: +56

31 free slots means it can adapt to mounting a Superheavy weapon to act as a heavy SPG, or it can be used as a personnel carrier, and any number of things in between. Medium Armor, plus a Holo-Field, plus the basic Refractor and Deflector should make it decently survivable too, though obviously far less so than our dedicated tank chassis, which has the heavy-duty shield generators included.
 
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