I've no disagreement over which ship we should be militarizing; I just want to be sure we do it so we have some idea of what the practical consequences actually are.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Ship Militarization's a bit of a spicy meatball for now (5 WAP per turn for anywhere from 4-8 turns when we have so much we need to develop still is unpleasant), but I think we can get a good idea by doing Vehicle Militarization first and seeing how big a difference that makes.
EDIT: A Rhino or Chimera equivalent chassis for instance right now could open up so many possibilities, as would a Totally Not A Leman Russ. Something we can use as a baseline and then create variants for to cover most of our mechanized needs.
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- Pronouns
- Reader
we don't. there still far to weapons heavy and systems low, particularly if we are considering dropping webway gates on battleships, as has been proposed numerous times, in favor of putting them elsewhere. a new hull designed for primarily system slots and only a small number of weapons batteries could serve both roles, allowing us to focus on damage and defense with battleships.
@Alectai fairly solid plan, though the AP on where Nacretinei is is simply wasted. it has 3 craftworld direct Allies who will surely spend 6 fold that seer ap minimum between them investigating a good deal more than we could knowing none but the barest details. this isn't any way to make progress on that quest line. it's something we need to wait until we meet them with diplomacy to get the details and benefit from their combined efforts which we can act on with our meta knowledge to find them.
I also think your rushing into sloop and strike craft refits a bit fast, taking development actions to get the techs your missing for them while refits are still an AP intensive 10+ turns to finish. I'd say slow it down some. if our entire previous system for anything warrior related was that inefficient, how bad are our current hulls? I know we still want to refit them but it maybe worth taking it a bit slower on our sloops and fighter craft and taking a turn to judge what we should be using their designs for and grab a few more development techs first. I for one would like some missiles for our strike craft, particularly if we are making haywire bombs that could be used in place of regular munitions fairly seamlessly. a missile tube is compatible with multiple missiles types after all.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Depends on the scale, our current hulls are Coast Guard equivalent--not great, but when everyone else is even worse off, it'll hold for now, and the timeframe needed to do a militarized ship hull is prohibitive at the moment. It's when we scale our hulls down that things get more and more scuffed until you get our light vehicles which are just straight up "Yeah, these are just Space Forklifts".
I'm not absolutely married to the Escort Refit (Though I'm not sure where else I could put the point aside from maybe another Vehicle Commission.) Nor the Strike Craft I suppose. What would you suggest I do then if you want me to put off making these for a turn? It'll free up 2 AP, which would let us get another Cruiser Refit done so Carracks and Caravels can both be ready, or I could get Escorts and a Brig refit so our Battleships aren't such glass cannons anymore.
What would you suggest I should do with our Scrying Actions then if you think the Nacretinei is a waste of time? Should I just discard both of them and focus on something like... I dunno, the Warstaves?
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
2 vehicle commissions could let us design a vehicle Hull for IFV/MBT and a fighter Hull so we can make a better interceptor.
You are overstating how big of an issue the weapons batteries are, Arach-Quin's light carrier has 4 weapons batteries and that example I brought up has even fewer weapons.
We're talking about refitting our Caravel into a light carrier because we want a stopgap which can be surged out quickly through refitting our existing damaged and intact Caravels.Synempora class Light Carrier said:
Designing a brand new hull and then building those is the exact opposite of that since each build action costs 4 BAP compared to the 1AP needed for a refit and we have so many other more pressing projects that require BAP.
Edit:
To put it into perspective, since we're probably designing a new capital ship and strikecraft this turn we could in theory begin pumping out refitted Light Carrier Caravels as early as next turn for 1 BAP each and potentially have then ready the turn after.
Even the most optimistic interpretation for designing a new hull where you assume that we can make a new ship design based off the new hull design immediately still requires a 4 BAP investment per hull.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I'd point out that Vehicle Commissions have to use Hulls we already have, if we want new Hulls, we need to do Chassis Militarization, which is still fairly time consuming (If nowhere remotely as much as Ship Hull Militarization)
And most of our vehicle scale hulls are... Well, fucking garbage. The only ones remotely salvagable are the Grav-Vehicles, which are just Space Sedans/Space Trucks with guns.
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- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Oh misread. I do think 2 chassis militarization would be useful, although I would be fine with only 1 chassis militarization
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
My thoughts on priorities:
- Food can wait. We've still got stockpiles, the improved techniques from the Exodites haven't kicked in yet, and we're steadily relocating a huge number of master biomancers to our craftworld.
- We do need to seriously start planning for engine repairs, so we can GTFO if the local situation starts to turn hot - which isn't particularly unlikely. We don't need to necessarily go ham this turn in particular, but I'd like to aim for a completed repair within the next three turns.
- Building up future capacity must be among our top priorities for, uh... probably something like the next 100 turns at least.
Some combination of Moving Existing Councils, Creating Diplomatic Councils, The Grand Academy, The Seer Circle, The Burden of Command, and Enhance Industry should be done every turn, with more low-hanging infrastructural/logistical fruit added to this list should they come up.
- Production Infrastructure is enormously more efficient than direct crafting on all but the shortest timescales, and we should aim to set up production of several more of our future staple designs.
- Our Seers should be prioritizing taking out the various curses, starting with the weakest and working their way up.
-Setting up some refit profiles so that our forces can passively modernize as equipment is produced also seems pretty critical at this juncture.
I'll leave the actual debating about which equipment to research and develop is best to others.
- Food can wait. We've still got stockpiles, the improved techniques from the Exodites haven't kicked in yet, and we're steadily relocating a huge number of master biomancers to our craftworld.
- We do need to seriously start planning for engine repairs, so we can GTFO if the local situation starts to turn hot - which isn't particularly unlikely. We don't need to necessarily go ham this turn in particular, but I'd like to aim for a completed repair within the next three turns.
- Building up future capacity must be among our top priorities for, uh... probably something like the next 100 turns at least.
Some combination of Moving Existing Councils, Creating Diplomatic Councils, The Grand Academy, The Seer Circle, The Burden of Command, and Enhance Industry should be done every turn, with more low-hanging infrastructural/logistical fruit added to this list should they come up.- Production Infrastructure is enormously more efficient than direct crafting on all but the shortest timescales, and we should aim to set up production of several more of our future staple designs.
- Our Seers should be prioritizing taking out the various curses, starting with the weakest and working their way up.
-Setting up some refit profiles so that our forces can passively modernize as equipment is produced also seems pretty critical at this juncture.
I'll leave the actual debating about which equipment to research and develop is best to others.
- Pronouns
- Reader
I'd go with Designing new Carrack as well as a Caravel. It's a solid move and designing them for different roles simultaneously will probably make them more efficient at those roles. It also gives us more options for skirmish fleet deployments variations once we finish a few refits.
develop warstaffs sounds good. we have no idea how long it will take so best to start it early.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Alright, I can make that happen.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
[ ] Fourth Draft: The Dawn of a New Day
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD} Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Completion)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seer Circle (4 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns to Completion)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Voidship Torpedos (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Melta Weapons (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Develop Warstaff (2 AP/3 Battlecasters)
-[ ][SEER] Raise a Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[ ] Simple Hybridization (3 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (3 AP)
--[ ] Scrambler Field (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Organize Troops (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (3 AP)
--[ ] Wraithbone Trauma Plates and Wraithweave Void Suits to be replaced with Wraithweave Brigantine. Infantry Lasweapons replaced with Infantry Needle Weapons
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
--[ ] Send 1 Combat Brig, 4 Battle Carracks, 10 Assault Ketches, and 20 Lance Sloops, Zahr-Tann's 15th Scout Fleet is to assist as they are able and provide early warning in case any local Problems decide to start coming our way.
--[ ] Blades of Isha are to be deployed as a precautionary measure and to ensure the security of our investigators in case anything nasty is still living in those wrecks, their skills in close quarters combat will be valuable then.
---[ ] This is not to be a combat operation despite the forces being deployed, our objective is to salvage any artifacts from the human wreckage that may provide useful insights for our own Seekers, sure, it's crude and poorly developed--but the core principles are still useful, and we're hardly in a position to be picky for sources of how to rebuild our forge-craft without the blessings of the Phoenix Court. Withdraw if there is any significant risk of sustaining damage.
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.
MAJOR REVISIONS FROM FIRST DRAFT
Grav-Gun Hybridization has been moved up to Basic Hybridization due to significant outcry. This took 2 points from the Scrambler Field project, but it'll get us a superior weapon when it's ready.
Refit Profiles were adjusted to replace our shitty Trauma Plates and Void Suits with Brigantine, and Infantry Lasweapons with Needle Weapons.
Due to absolutely relentless bullying by everyone, removed the Forge and Foundry construction options to start on the Seer Circle and moved the Forge Action to that to speed it up a bit.
Added a deployment to the Kronite System to see if we can sneak a quick salvage op in while nobody's looking that way. Mostly in-house forces using pre-Fall upgunned merchantmen that haven't been refit yet, with orders that this is a salvage and investigation mission, and not a combat one. They are to withdraw if they run into anything greater than token resistance.
On reasonable suggestions and a lack of any real better idea, converted the two Scrying actions into starting the Warstaff project
With some good points brought up, moved the Escort and Strike Craft commissions out so we can do a pass on both of our current Cruiserweight designs at once, so we can build them with complimentary roles in mind.
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD} Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Completion)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seer Circle (4 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns to Completion)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Voidship Torpedos (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Melta Weapons (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Develop Warstaff (2 AP/3 Battlecasters)
-[ ][SEER] Raise a Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[ ] Simple Hybridization (3 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (3 AP)
--[ ] Scrambler Field (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Organize Troops (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (3 AP)
--[ ] Wraithbone Trauma Plates and Wraithweave Void Suits to be replaced with Wraithweave Brigantine. Infantry Lasweapons replaced with Infantry Needle Weapons
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
--[ ] Send 1 Combat Brig, 4 Battle Carracks, 10 Assault Ketches, and 20 Lance Sloops, Zahr-Tann's 15th Scout Fleet is to assist as they are able and provide early warning in case any local Problems decide to start coming our way.
--[ ] Blades of Isha are to be deployed as a precautionary measure and to ensure the security of our investigators in case anything nasty is still living in those wrecks, their skills in close quarters combat will be valuable then.
---[ ] This is not to be a combat operation despite the forces being deployed, our objective is to salvage any artifacts from the human wreckage that may provide useful insights for our own Seekers, sure, it's crude and poorly developed--but the core principles are still useful, and we're hardly in a position to be picky for sources of how to rebuild our forge-craft without the blessings of the Phoenix Court. Withdraw if there is any significant risk of sustaining damage.
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.
MAJOR REVISIONS FROM FIRST DRAFT
Grav-Gun Hybridization has been moved up to Basic Hybridization due to significant outcry. This took 2 points from the Scrambler Field project, but it'll get us a superior weapon when it's ready.
Refit Profiles were adjusted to replace our shitty Trauma Plates and Void Suits with Brigantine, and Infantry Lasweapons with Needle Weapons.
Due to absolutely relentless bullying by everyone, removed the Forge and Foundry construction options to start on the Seer Circle and moved the Forge Action to that to speed it up a bit.
Added a deployment to the Kronite System to see if we can sneak a quick salvage op in while nobody's looking that way. Mostly in-house forces using pre-Fall upgunned merchantmen that haven't been refit yet, with orders that this is a salvage and investigation mission, and not a combat one. They are to withdraw if they run into anything greater than token resistance.
On reasonable suggestions and a lack of any real better idea, converted the two Scrying actions into starting the Warstaff project
With some good points brought up, moved the Escort and Strike Craft commissions out so we can do a pass on both of our current Cruiserweight designs at once, so we can build them with complimentary roles in mind.
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I know you just changed this but a concern I have with this is that if one of our cruiser designs does end up with a hangar we're going to be stuck with the Bright Eagle as the only strikecraft option and those things cost 40 Starcrystals apiece and have no active defenses.
We don't actually know how equipping starships with fighters works so there is a risk that we'd be locking ourselves into Bright Eagles that would potentially require AP to undo in the future.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I'm not a huge fan myself, but the good news is that we're not hurting for Starcrystals at the moment thanks to the Assault to War Ketch pipeline!
At the end of the day, getting two solid Cruiserweight refits online does feel like the way to go right now.
- Pronouns
- Reader
@Alectai You have six scout fleets just sitting around, certainly not needed for defense with Zahr-Tann heavy fleets in system. Send them webway scouting for a turn or two until we get enough info to pursue one of the missing craftworld quests lines.
Ectosa is only very cold and far from Grimtusks empire. Just sending a combat brig a few caravels + a dozen escorts and some Zahr-Tann tan warhosts with their hellguns perfect for melting through ice should be sufficient to collect the terraforming tech and anything nearby from the planets previous civilization.
Ectosa is only very cold and far from Grimtusks empire. Just sending a combat brig a few caravels + a dozen escorts and some Zahr-Tann tan warhosts with their hellguns perfect for melting through ice should be sufficient to collect the terraforming tech and anything nearby from the planets previous civilization.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I'm leery about sending more forces than we absolutely have to out for a turn or two, when we have no idea if we're going to get a clap-back from any of the Chaos forces. I don't mind starting one expedition, and I suppose I can send some scouting forces out, but I don't want to have two salvage ops going at once for the immediate future.
EDIT: Done, I'm keeping some of our scouts closer to home though, since I'm assuming they'll be providing some Early Warning if someone tries sneaking up on us. Whether it be Ork or otherwise.
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- Pronouns
- Reader
We aren't getting clapped back by chaos immediately.
The just learned, don't know where we are. These next few turns are the safest we'll ever get while they build themselves up to a meaningful attempt at retaliation and aren't in a position to just pounce on our forces.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Grimtusk's nearest world is the entire length of his empire from our position in the Galactic North, and he doesn't know what direction he should even be looking in.
Also, does anyone really think an Ork saw us escape through the webway gate, looked at his hero doomstack armada, and went home? With a humie hive city a stones throw away? Nah. He went Krumpin..might still be Krumpin. If he ain't still Krumpin, he's looting the scrap from his latest conquest.
Also, does anyone really think an Ork saw us escape through the webway gate, looked at his hero doomstack armada, and went home? With a humie hive city a stones throw away? Nah. He went Krumpin..might still be Krumpin. If he ain't still Krumpin, he's looting the scrap from his latest conquest.
- Location
- Germany
I feel just going all in on Eye of Tzeentch is the way to go.
I just don't see why we should raise psyker units at all considering the AP investment for what goes into very limited numbers of trained people and us having way better things to do with the AP (counter the curses).
Edit:
Also, i will add my voice to the ones say we are gaining here way more than expected.
Somewhat large scale deployment of Ithilmar seems possible and everyone in VGA is def something we can and should do.
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- Pronouns
- Reader
You have a bit of a point. We are still decades from fielding any warhosts in serious engagements and the eye of Tzeench creator is the most likely to retaliate against us. For now it's more important to like in effort and we can spare some AP towards other tasks later.
- Location
- Germany
Yes, also any units we field without Holo-Fields are going to get shot at a lot more because they are much easier* to target and hit than units that do have Holo-Fields.
*might also be the only units that can be semi reliably hit in the first place.
- Location
- Utrecht
I think we should do the preliminary research for meson blasters and take perfect hybridization. And just leave haywire weapons for future turns.
Completing prelimiary research for Meson blasters will at least tell us why the weapons that are unlockable even look like. None of us know what is even possible with those weapons, as they do not appear in Canon.
As for perfect hybridization, we might as well go for the real deal. With even simple hybridization taking 5-12 turns, we're not going to be using combi-grav for the first batch of refit designs. So we might as well enjoy the side benefits that the perfect hybridization brings, such as the mentioned ultra dense power supply or micro fusion generator.
And since it locks a lot of AP, that's just incentive to build the grand academy sooner rather than later.
Completing prelimiary research for Meson blasters will at least tell us why the weapons that are unlockable even look like. None of us know what is even possible with those weapons, as they do not appear in Canon.
As for perfect hybridization, we might as well go for the real deal. With even simple hybridization taking 5-12 turns, we're not going to be using combi-grav for the first batch of refit designs. So we might as well enjoy the side benefits that the perfect hybridization brings, such as the mentioned ultra dense power supply or micro fusion generator.
And since it locks a lot of AP, that's just incentive to build the grand academy sooner rather than later.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
@DarkliI like your webway post. It reads a bit like a news report/analysis on.
You're a real credit to team
.
----
Edit: I rather liked the actions where whe screed for the lost craftworld, in that it would give us a starting point.
Might be better to scry the past and ask "what happened"?
On the other hand, if we have the 'space' this turn to talk to the missing craftworld's allies in our two Diplo AP, they could give us their information/scrying data so we don't duplicate their effort?
On the third hand, this happened four years ago, and waiting a whole five years to start looking makes me anxious, so maybe we'd be able to talk to the missing craftworld's allies at the start of this turn and combine efforts throughout the turn?
You're a real credit to team
.----
Edit: I rather liked the actions where whe screed for the lost craftworld, in that it would give us a starting point.
Might be better to scry the past and ask "what happened"?
On the other hand, if we have the 'space' this turn to talk to the missing craftworld's allies in our two Diplo AP, they could give us their information/scrying data so we don't duplicate their effort?
On the third hand, this happened four years ago, and waiting a whole five years to start looking makes me anxious, so maybe we'd be able to talk to the missing craftworld's allies at the start of this turn and combine efforts throughout the turn?
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