I personally hope for Revanchists to split into Dominionists and Imperialists/Denilists via the Vile-Tan Iyanden split. Iyanden thinking that Aeldari need to have a planetary presence for safety and stability, while Biel-tan is in denail about not getting to rule over galaxy.
I'm hoping that the split occurs more along the lines of those who shift their views/goals towards being more realistic in the face of the coming revelations and those who are on board with teaming up to break the curses and rescue Isha but still believe that the Dominion will be reborn afterwards.
 
I personally hope for Revanchists to split into Dominionists and Imperialists/Denilists via the Vile-Tan Iyanden split. Iyanden thinking that Aeldari need to have a planetary presence for safety and stability, while Biel-tan is in denail about not getting to rule over galaxy.
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Alas, it soon became clear that the Asuryani of Biel-Tan fought not to defeat servants of the Dark Gods, but to humble all who barred the Asuryani path to re-ascension. With every success, Biel-Tan grew more confident, and before long, they no longer limited themselves to the destruction of Chaos. Instead, Biel-Tan began to loose its fury against any alien-occupied planet the Aeldari had once claimed.
They took no pleasure in their victories, seeing them merely as the righteous eradication of vermin, growing ever more bitter each time they encountered an Aeldari world in need of cleansing.
Before long, the pact between Biel-Tan and Iyanden weakened and ran its course. Biel-Tan came to resent that Iyanden did not share its outrage at the primitives who squatted upon ancient Aeldari worlds, and interpreted Iyanden's refusal to engage in such battles as an unwillingness to spill blood alongside its ally.
By contrast, the Iyanden Asuryani saw little value in squandering strength on worlds they could not afford to re-colonise; nor did they hate the aliens so deeply as their Biel-Tan kin -- indeed, the Asuryani of Iyanden pitied many of the aliens for their shortcomings. Though the alliance was never officially dissolved, joint campaigns between the two craftworlds became ever more infrequent until, one day, communications ceased altogether.

This is how the Bromance broke up in Canon.

I could see it enduring longer as Biel-Tan will have greater motivation to remain focused on Chaos this time around.
 
Industrial assistance is pretty dead in the water for the next at least the next 10 turns.
I'm not so sure we want to spend 5-6BAP a turn every turn on expansion. I can get behind 3-4, but we have enough urgent stuff on our plate that playing too long a game with our BAP feels like a mistake.
Teaching them is going to almost certainly involve speeding something like 10BAP for the starcrystals and 15BAP for the Fatecasters per craftworld.
I don't see why? Teaching Bonesingers how to work with these exotics from scratch is already baked into the action cost, it's how we expand our own facilities.
Hopefully the impression they get is that Vau-Vulkesh doesn't practice the modification of Eldar souls because it is ideologically dedicated to the idea, but because it's the best solution yet found to the existential problem plaguing all Eldar. If a better solution is found that doesn't involve modifying souls, then it stands to reason that Vau-Vulkesh would switch to that method instead. We don't think that a better solution will be found, but the perception is the important part: it's a radical solution in the face of an existential, inescapable crisis, rather than a shameless obscenity.
Modifying out own souls is something that's pretty baked into Vau-Vulkesh as a goal for dealing with the Flaw/the future, so attempting to convince the Asuryan otherwise would just come across as insincere.

Better to show tolerance of other methods so it doesn't come across like we think other people should go our way or the highway (though considering our reaction to Alaitoc's Paths that'll be an uphill struggle at best).

Maybe we can go for degrees of how much people want to modify their souls, so newcomers can either dip their toes into it for a minor effect or go full bore as we're likely to do.
 
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I'm not so sure we want to spend 5-6BAP a turn every turn on expansion. I can get behind 3-4, but we have enough urgent stuff on our plate that playing too long a game with our BAP feels like a mistake.

Either we go heavy on the BAP expansion or we pretty much cripple ourselves long term compared to where we could have been.

The differences between keep the investment up for half BAP and don't is stupidly massive.
Even under worst case assumptions (they all take 3 turns, no forge) after 13 turns we doubled our total BAP.

And the speed of the growths gets faster over time not slower, turn 26 would have us be at around 81 total BAP per turn.

I don't see why? Teaching Bonesinger how to work with these exotics from scratch is already baked into the action cost, it's how we expand our own facilities.

By Teaching you mean split the existing group in two and then train over the next 5 years people up to slowly grow into the job?

There is a reason why the exotics lose production when we do the expansion. 50% for the starcrystals and 100% on the Psy scopes.

This isn't the case here.
We have to not only get the group we are teach up to speed so they don't need our people to hand hold them for the production but also teach them how to fucking build the entire production building in the first place.

Not expecting a massive cost when teach something as hyper specialized and complex as Eldar Domain Exotics is pretty damn unrealistic.
 
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Modifying out own souls is something that's pretty baked into Vau-Vulkesh as a goal for dealing with the Flaw/the future, so attempting to convince the Asuryan otherwise would just come across as insincere.

Better to show tolerance of other methods so it doesn't come across like we think other people should go our way or the highway (though considering our reaction to Alaitoc's Paths that'll be an uphill struggle at best).

Maybe we can go for degrees of how much people want to modify their souls, so newcomers can either dip their toes into it for a minor effect or go full bore as we're likely to do.
Vau-Vulkesh after calling the other radicals at the moot: We all agree that shit's absolutely fucked and we need to change something.
SO! Let's cook! We're making poisonous porcupine souls: She who thirsts will still try to eat them, but she will fucking hate every minute of it, eventually causing her to stop eating us altogether. What are you lads thinking?

Edit:
Basic soul forging = repairing the rents left from the loss of the gods blessings.
full soul forging = Make Slaanesh go "Euuurgh" and throw up when she eats your soul.

Edit2: Vau-Vulkesh does not aim low in their hubris. "We want to create Chaos-anathema souls that are still psykers" Everyone else: :o. There's hubris and HUBRIS :V
 
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In the short-midterm, assuming the Eldmoot goes alright, I think we want to heavily focus on industrial/technological outreach and assistance to other craftworlds in the service of diplomacy.

I like the idea of positioning ourselves as Eldar Industrial hub and main weapon supplier. This would make us important for all major Craftworld's and give us dose of protection both from Xeno threats, Chaos and would rein in Biel-Tan.

We are about to become the foremost of large craft worlds however. The thing is we aren't built for commanding a faction or directing it's assets in any big way, so we'll have to settle for leveraging our prominence to encourage them down certain avenues of development and behavior instead, while leaving enough up to them that they don't become dependent on us. It's a rather tricky line to walk, but I think we can do it with some care.

Technically we could get one of major Craftworld's to be our patrons and be a major in said faction influencing it in certain direction. Iyanden , or Ulthwe seem like a good choices.
 
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Second, Seer Circle is more about countering the interference to scrying than getting Seer running properly. Seer is already running properly, as demonstrated by the fact that it has internal options for improvement of it's capabilities, unlike stewardship and warrior. Seeker is also a properly developed ministry, it's just not hyper specialized the way Bonesinger is. Neither of these are immediate priorities.
Um no Seer not just about scrying it's also about researching psytech which we currently have no options for and it has no options for improving itself unless the QM added something to the seer section while I wasn't looking.
 
Um no Seer not just about scrying it's also about researching psytech which we currently have no options for and it has no options for improving itself unless the QM added something to the seer section while I wasn't looking.
Please tell me where it says that it is doing other things than scying.
[ ] Seer Circle (4 points initial, 2 points continuous | 3-5 turns) (will require at least one Seer AP to activate after completion)
Scrying is now far more difficult than it once was—not only are the blessings of the Crone and Daughter lost to you, but the Fate-changer, Master of Crows is no longer locked in an eternal duel with the gods of the Aeldari, and so seeks to confound their visions as much as it may. Yet in the most ancient of methods, there are many devices and rituals once discarded as unnecessary that might pave a way to clearer—or at least easier—visions.
Begin constructing facilities to aid your Seers in scrying, reducing the difficulty of doing so.

At least to me, it looks 100% focused on scrying.
The one that is helping with warp research is the Tower which is the part we picked up in char get.
 
I'm not so sure we want to spend 5-6BAP a turn every turn on expansion. I can get behind 3-4, but we have enough urgent stuff on our plate that playing too long a game with our BAP feels like a mistake.
we really don't. Grimtusks empire is too far away to threaten us anytime soon, chaos is currently distracted infighting according to QM, the Imperium of man is centuries from bring active, and Beil-Tan is effectively neutered by politics for the next few centuries. this there is no need to rush either our engines or the refits. we can trickle both for a little while we build up necessary industry for not having as many hard choices later on down thr line.
I don't see why? Teaching Bonesinger how to work with these exotics from scratch is already baked into the action cost, it's how we expand our own facilities.
most worlds don't have the industry to get foundry built every turn, let alone spend ten turns strait building them up since they need a ton of production to make up for their lack of more than a few centuries of prior production that we benefit from. It's not a technology that's feasible to share and expect even the major craft worlds to get much use out of this century.

don't get me wrong, it's very cool tech, but it's long haul tech, not post apocalypse replace all your navy rapidly with no prior military production build up to make it worthwhile.
Maybe we can go for degrees of how much people want to modify their souls, so newcomers can either dip their toes into it for a minor effect or go full bore as we're likely to do.
I look at it like plastic surgery. we are aiming for full on facial soul reconstruction. someone else might be up for a bit of nose soul job. the really off put might just get some botox a patch job.
Um no Seer not just about scrying it's also about researching psytech which we currently have no options for and it has no options for improving itself unless the QM added something to the seer section while I wasn't looking.
no, it's not.
[ ] Seer Circle (4 points initial, 2 points continuous | 3-5 turns) (will require at least one Seer AP to activate after completion)
Scrying is now far more difficult than it once was—not only are the blessings of the Crone and Daughter lost to you, but the Fate-changer, Master of Crows is no longer locked in an eternal duel with the gods of the Aeldari, and so seeks to confound their visions as much as it may. Yet in the most ancient of methods, there are many devices and rituals once discarded as unnecessary that might pave a way to clearer—or at least easier—visions.
Begin constructing facilities to aid your Seers in scrying, reducing the difficulty of doing so.
It's constructing a facility to counter the increased difficulty scrying, which we haven't been using to research the curse, to our benefit. there is nothing in the action about the research we are doing on the curses.
[ ] Seerstone Tower (-1 point)
Among the artifacts borne away from disaster by your Craftworld in the chaos of the Fall is a Seerstone—a self-aware repository of warp-lore and potent scrying tool in one. Ensconced in an appropriate facility, this relic construct will provide aid in any Warpcraft research, as well as helping to train Psyker powers for use.
this is our aid in curse research.
 
it's likely that the Seer Circle will unlock "Ghost helms" as gear for our psykers.
Or Bonesinger action to start building them... or a Seeker action to understand them.
 
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How? it boosts Scrying specifically, and that sounds more like Warp Crafting. there probably is something to unlock that, but it likely isn't seer circle.
[ ] Seer Circle (4 points initial, 2 points continuous | 3-5 turns) (will require at least one Seer AP to activate after completion)
Scrying is now far more difficult than it once was—not only are the blessings of the Crone and Daughter lost to you, but the Fate-changer, Master of Crows is no longer locked in an eternal duel with the gods of the Aeldari, and so seeks to confound their visions as much as it may. Yet in the most ancient of methods, there are many devices and rituals once discarded as unnecessary that might pave a way to clearer—or at least easier—visions.
Emphasis mine.

Building the seer circle will give us "ancient methods, devices and rituals". It might be historical records of devices, or worse mythological references to devices, which we would need Seeker actions to recreate or Seer actions to adapt to modern use. And if we are lucky enough to find a blueprint for them, we'd need bonesinger actions to teach our people how to make them.

I'll also point out that as part of building the shrine of Khaine, we seem to have moved at least some relic weapons from the vaults to the Shrine. I expect the same thing would happen with the Seer Circle.
and most important is the heavily warded reliquary, an inverted pyramid concealed by cunning artifice beneath the great statue of the war-god in the main pyramid. It is here that the greatest relic-weapons and those shards of the War God held by the Craftworld are placed, for times when they are needed.
 
Either we go heavy on the BAP expansion or we pretty much cripple ourselves long term compared to where we could have been.

The differences between keep the investment up for half BAP and don't is stupidly massive.
Even under worst case assumptions (they all take 3 turns, no forge) after 13 turns we doubled our total BAP.

And the speed of the growths gets faster over time not slower, turn 26 would have us be at around 81 total BAP per turn.
Calling it crippling is an exaggeration, and it still assumes we won't need to spend that BAP on more immediately useful things in the short term.

Plus I'm not saying do no investment, I'm saying limit it to starting one new Enhance Industry every turn, so we spend 3-5 BAP on it every turn. We can then increase that allotment in the future as we put out more fires, assuming the action doesn't become limited in some way.
 
Also, don't assume that even our BAP capacity is unlimited. We might have all the Industry-but even our Industrial potential has limits imposed by population and resources. 81 BAP per turn is...well, it's crazy with how the action system is set up and I don't think we'll get that much.
 
i think most of the plan makers will be putting at least one increase industry action every turn.

Putting double that, and adding the forge actions on top of that is a lot more disputed, as it basically requires us to put basically everything else on hold.

The bonesinger category controls the engine, construction, the fleet and the army. 3 of those are the "top priority issues" we get at the start of turn.

Snowballing is important, yes, but i don't see it as taking first priority.
 
Also, don't assume that even our BAP capacity is unlimited. We might have all the Industry-but even our Industrial potential has limits imposed by population and resources. 81 BAP per turn is...well, it's crazy with how the action system is set up and I don't think we'll get that much.

Considering the eldar in canon managed to outfit their armies purely with active BAP (and no passive production from foundries), it has to scale up a lot. Try to outfit several billion people even in something like Brigantine, even with 10 000 years that isn't happening without a crazy amount of BAP.


There is then the fact that ship building will always need active BAP, and if we don't get more we will get rolled by the waaghs no question in the future.
 
I do expect even if we always need to spend BAP, that it'll be possible to improve our efficiency, but yeah, we'll have to see how things shake out.

Goodness, we've been spoiled though, I'm getting antsy now and it's only been two days since the voting closed.
 
The idea that we could ever consider monofocusing on ourselves is hilarious. Look at our historical Bonesinger AP distribution:
  1. 7 AP to allies, 8 AP to us
  2. 8 AP to allies, 7 AP to us
  3. 7 AP to allies, 8 AP to us
  4. 6 AP to allies, 9 AP to us
We've spent nearly half of our industrial capacity (28/60) on other people, while barely scratching away at our own serious repairs and desperately needed infrastructure modernizations. If there's one thing that the thread is more than willing to drop AP on, it's shoving industrial capacity toward our allies.

Right, but I maintain that it was more than worth it. Getting access to a Sword of Vaul from Arach-Qin, or the military power of Zahr-Tann have been ludicrously action-efficient compared to trying to accomplish a similar amount of buildup personally. I imagine the same will be true of Meros when it comes to setting up expansion of our Seers.

Now, those were all character-creation boons, so it's probably safe to say that they're unusually good deals - but looking at if our returns on alliances going forward are even half - a third! - as good, then they would still remain, AP per AP, among our best options for buildup in both the long and short term.

Basically, I'm looking at the aid we're likely to get from being able to examine Fea-Eresh when it comes to reforging our souls, the assistance of Quilan with solving our food situation... and saying "yes, excellent, more of this please".
 
81 BAP per turn is...well, it's crazy with how the action system is set up and I don't think we'll get that much.
I could have sworn I'd seen a statement by Mechanis that we'd eventually have our AP be compressed down to smaller but more powerful numbers, but I can't find the quote.

I don't think alliances are likely to ever give us significant chunks of BAP, so we should take any moments of calm we've got (like the one we're currently in!) to expand it.

Oh, right, something I did find: the explicit syntax of how the Repair Engines options work.
the syntax means "two AP per investment, up to 3 investments" (or 6 points total)
I think some of us (myself included) have been underestimating just how much AP in repairs we need to get done to start moving again.
 
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There is also the problem that going all in on spending BAP on your allies like crazy, we will have a lot of problems building up ourselves.

That is pretty bad when you think about the fact that we have 21 times the population of Zahr-Tann and as a result should have at least an army/navy that reflects that.

Zahr-Tann and the other minor/small craftworlds have a very limited pool for personal pretty damn tiny compared what we could and should field.

Having tons of tiny allies doesn't help much when said tiny allies actually need the military help of a large sized craftworld to not get overrun.


And for us to build up to that means we need to invest a lot in into getting more BAP and setting up passive production.
 
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Oh, right, something I did find: the explicit syntax of how the Repair Engines options work.
I think some of us (myself included) have been underestimating just how much AP in repairs we need to get done to start moving again.
I asked about that before and didn't get an answer, so the easiest way to confirm would just be to put 3BAP and a Forge action on Repairing the Plasma Engines in Turn 5, then see how much is left to complete in Turn 6.
 
That is pretty bad when you think about the fact that we have 21 times the population of Zahr-Tann and as a result should have at least an army/navy that reflects that.

Zahr-Tann and the other minor/small craftworlds have a very limited pool for personal pretty damn tiny compared what we could and should field.
The problem with growing the military is that we created troops that are far too elite. We probably won't get another chance to rationalize the troops again until we've done the fast attack and the elites.
So, we'll have to make some detachments that have ithilmar armor on troops... Or not use those, and use the one rationalized troop that looks like our planned troops (i.e. The void guard armor and starblasters).

What are our elites even going to look like?
 
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