Ghost in the Shell power armor with holo-fields, grav shields and 3-5 guns capable of independent targeting, with alternative mode on the grav shield that allows to jump 50+ meters.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- Utrecht
we don't have a suit like that though. Not in the short run, when we take the first rationalize the elite units.
Our first elites will probably end up being cheaper than our ithilmar "troops", now that we realize the scale of the army we have to build.
- Location
- Germany
There is currently a full redesign of our ground force planned in 4-5 turns.
Mostly because by then we should have got the techs we want to include in that and the logistic information we need to know we can get done without waiting 100+ turns building up.
- Location
- Utrecht
Yes, which also means quite a few more turns with our military AP remaining relatively unused.
- Location
- Germany
If you don't want to raise detachments that directly need to go through several refits there isn't much of a choice.
And we are still busy retrofitting the crap forces we have as is.
I'm pretty sure we're about to dump as much Warrior AP as can be spared into drill and training up officers, both things that the Shrine of Khaine should unlock.
Don't worry about it being wasted, I'm sure we'll have more uses for it than we'll ever be willing to commit to.
- Location
- Utrecht
We have to raise detchments with WAP, but the detachments we can raise have are crappily equipped, but 2/3 choices we made for the troops are too expensive.
Next turn we should probably ratonalize Elites and Fast attack (2 Steward), going for Dudes in VGA on Jetbikes, and Elites in Ithilmar, Design a detachment using the new elites/fast attack/voidspear troops.
And start printing VGA and Starblaster rifles.
This is a bit tricky, because our jetbike redesign got botched because people didn't realize how much the cost per slot conversion would add up. Putting it off a turn and spending an AP doing another round of vehicle design could get us an unbotched jetbike and some form of artillery vehicle, both of which would be nice.
As for Ithilmar... that's great stuff for our special troops, our Seers and psykers and our theoretical officers and battlefield engineers who all spend our AP of other types to train up, but even for Elite units it's prohibitively expensive.
Equipping a unit with Ithilmar and laspistols costs as much as, say, equipping a unit of the same size with VGW and fusion mortars.
- Pronouns
- Reader
bonesinger is more construction and massproduction. designing is stewardship, while more conceptual stuff involved in creating a new tech base is seeker. I'm not sure where these rituals fall under, but the places we've been overwhelmed is stewardship and bonesinger, while martial had suffered from too little ground work to build on, which is hopefully behind us.
no it doesn't. we still have 7 AP to spend on other things after repairs and refits for allies. there are no critical fires to put out, no need to rush engines to completion or start the seer circle & grand academy immediately. we go heavy for three turn with 6 AP and the forges and we can increase our AP by more than a third, allowing us to sustain the AP investment without the forges and trickle in more while we tackle other problems with the 15 and growing AP.
your all writing this off as some sort of crazy scheme for the longterm. it's not one. it's a necessary short term step so that when mid terms arrives we aren't caught like a deer in the headlights with the same AP we had when we only had 3 other craft cities to look after. your building up the urgency and vitalness of certain actions because their on the main list or sound really good, when it's been revealed that their actions that can actually wait a little.
not likely. their will likely be some method refining and tactics research that needs to be taken as well as other ground work to get us properly established, like how stewardship needs to spend some of it's AP activating the hall, as well as possibly setting up a system of recruitment that produces fresh recruits every so many turns.
designing detachments should wait until we have a clearer idea of what our typical Warhost looks like. depending on what it costs to activate stewardship hall, we can see about rationalizing, and put leftover points into 4 or 5 ap on relic vaults for a better chance at something worthwhile. depending on what's left over we might design a fighter since discussion around those has focused on tech we already had at the start.
fair point. probably doing that instead then.
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- Location
- Utrecht
I'd rather halve the Ithilmar squad size and put the fusion mortars on those though.
The biggest problem is that the ithilmar suits don't have targeters inbuilt, so they won't be making use of the fusion mortar as effectively as they could.
In hindsight, i would have preferred targeters and no sensors, than the other way around.
- Location
- Germany
The big thing about the army at the moment ?
We lack critical information, and it will take some time until we have that information.
Add in waiting for a turn or two to get the techs we want to include 100% of the time, that means waiting 4-5 Turns before doing more designs.
In part because we have the information we need for vehicle and troop design.
We also have more or less the baseline for the detachments, the only thing we are lacking there is at which points something counts as light, normal or heavy.
Rushing into that just means we have to use more steward AP that we are already tight on to save WAP that we currently are not using because we lack the idea and infrastructure to use for over all detachments and just create more of a mess for us to clean up.
If we get the chance to start some mass recruiting to get officers / general training underway until we start to get the gear production going in 4-5 turns that would be nice, but will have to see what both the shrine and the steward hall unlocks + foundry production.
We lack critical information, and it will take some time until we have that information.
Add in waiting for a turn or two to get the techs we want to include 100% of the time, that means waiting 4-5 Turns before doing more designs.
In part because we have the information we need for vehicle and troop design.
We also have more or less the baseline for the detachments, the only thing we are lacking there is at which points something counts as light, normal or heavy.
Rushing into that just means we have to use more steward AP that we are already tight on to save WAP that we currently are not using because we lack the idea and infrastructure to use for over all detachments and just create more of a mess for us to clean up.
If we get the chance to start some mass recruiting to get officers / general training underway until we start to get the gear production going in 4-5 turns that would be nice, but will have to see what both the shrine and the steward hall unlocks + foundry production.
- Location
- Utrecht
we'll have to see what shows up next turn with the shrine active, and after that when we get the stewardship building running.
are we thinking of single purposr specialist squads, or something close to the guardians, with heavy weapon specialists as part of the squad?
are we thinking of single purposr specialist squads, or something close to the guardians, with heavy weapon specialists as part of the squad?
The problem with Ithilmar is that, as a way of delivering weapons to the battlefield, its cost approaches that of heavy vehicles.
An ithilmar-armored mortar carrier is already 41 EP before any other equipment costs are included; I'm pretty sure we can put together a heavy jetbike with a fusion mortar, twin suncasters, and a full-up grav shield for the cost of two ithilmar mortar carriers, even including the crew armor as VGW, and I'm pretty sure that results in a more durable, more maneuverable unit, with arguably more firepower even if not as much of it is in the form of artillery.
It's absolutely worth it if we're protecting more than just the EP invested in weaponry, but if all we're protecting is the EP invested in weaponry I think we'd do better investing in more weapons instead.
- Location
- Utrecht
fuck, that makes sense.
So troops = vgw with light weapons
Elites = vgw with heavy weapons
Fast attack= vgw on jetbikes with mid-heavy weapons
Special and hq = ithilmar
- Location
- Germany
Ithilmar does a very good show at the role it is intended for and that is to make our Assault troops really hard to kill.
Side effect we found out later that is really nice ?
It lets them be mobile while carrying heavy weaponry.
For better protected on a heavy jetbike ?
The grav shield alone costs 30, then pay +18 for the Holo-Field, while the armor also carries one of the same type of grav shield to my understanding.
You try to give a jetbike anything close to the Ithimar armor in terms of protection and you will pay a lot more to than the armor does.
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RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
Ithilmar squads are best for melee and boarding actions. While their cost does approach the price of heavy vehicles, their size means that they are able to get into places that lack the anti-tank weaponry required to kill them.
- Location
- Utrecht
good luck calling an artillery strike inside a corridor.
An all ithilmar squad to go dumpster diving in a space hulk.
Elites can be various things. Not all armies are created equal obviously, but generally elites aren't just Troops+ but have some form of specialization. I would point to things like Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees for examples of what an Elite unit looks like, though they can also include things like Wraithguards depending on edition, so some sort of war-walker chassis wouldn't be unheard of here. I'd like jetpacks of some sort before we put together our fast attack infantry, but jetbikes are...fine? They're fine, we can put together something with jetbikes this turn that I wouldn't object to-it's everything else in Fast Attack I worry about.
Ithilmar indoors is something that has one weakness-AOE attacks, specifically grenades, get reflected by the walls back onto you, and narrow corridors cut down on the effectiveness of holofields when you fill half the corridor with your bulk. The 2nd Edition DnD Fireball problem rears it's head here-an explosion in confined space fills the space, not just a radius. At least, until the walls fail and collapse on you.
- Location
- Germany
Holo-Fields still mean they are pretty much invisible if they want to and fuck with distance.
For grenades the grav shield can still deflect them before they explode, and if our heavy power armor can't tank a frak grenade, something is pretty wrong with our armor material.
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RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
Ithilmar alone should be able to tank frak grenades like they are nothing. Krak grenades are a bit more worrying, but the backpack Conversion Field should be able to make easy work of them.
- Location
- Utrecht
... Is there a reason for not putting plasma weapons on our troops?
They cost the same as a needler rifle, and one more than a spike rifle.
Void guard warsuit + sunblaster rifle for Ranged troops
Void guard warsuit + sunblaster pistol + rending blade for the assault troops
I have previously crunched out the math for the base cost of a naked Heavy Jetbike earlier and it comes out to 22EP.
Compared to that an Ithilmar suit which is 23EP after the incorporation of a vehicle scale Holo-Field and Grav-Shield.
In order to just get a Holo-Field on a Heavy Jetbike you'd need to spend 18EP which would bump up the price to 40EP which is nearly 2 Ithilmar's.
Assuming we try to fit both setups into barebones Mortar Units (pistols for self defense, no other weapons) with 6 Mortars apiece I got the following numbers:
The Ithilmar combo comes out way cheaper to the point where it would only be 24EP more costly to toss in a fully equipped Mirage Hover-Transport (182EP base +8EP from 4 brigandines, +4EP from 4 Flamer pistols and +4EP from 4 CCWs) so that mobility becomes comparable.
The math actually goes further in favor of the Ithilmar if we doubled the unit size since a Mirage Hover-Transport can fit 13 troops which means you'd still only need the one Mirage.
Overall the Ithilmar's seem to come out way better as you scale up since this example was competitive cost-wise to a cheap extremely barebones and practically defenseless Heavy Jetbike.
From a self defense perspective the Ithilmar setup is overwhelmingly superior as the Ithilmar's themselves are capable of 1v1ing Meganob's in CQC while unarmed and also come with a Sunblaster Pistol each plus a fully equipped Mirage which has a bunch of Spike rifles Vs some guys in VGA with Flamer Pistols.
Compared to that an Ithilmar suit which is 23EP after the incorporation of a vehicle scale Holo-Field and Grav-Shield.
In order to just get a Holo-Field on a Heavy Jetbike you'd need to spend 18EP which would bump up the price to 40EP which is nearly 2 Ithilmar's.
Assuming we try to fit both setups into barebones Mortar Units (pistols for self defense, no other weapons) with 6 Mortars apiece I got the following numbers:
Chassis: 22EP
Plasma Mortar H: 18EP
Holo-Field: 18EP
2x VGA: 12EP
2x Flamer Pistols: 2EP
Total: 72EP
Unit Cost: 72*6=432EP
Plasma Mortar H: 18EP
Holo-Field: 18EP
2x VGA: 12EP
2x Flamer Pistols: 2EP
Total: 72EP
Unit Cost: 72*6=432EP
Ithilmar: 23EP
Plasma Mortar H: 18EP
Plasma Pistol: 2EP
Total: 43EP
Unit Cost: 43*6=258EP
Plasma Mortar H: 18EP
Plasma Pistol: 2EP
Total: 43EP
Unit Cost: 43*6=258EP
The math actually goes further in favor of the Ithilmar if we doubled the unit size since a Mirage Hover-Transport can fit 13 troops which means you'd still only need the one Mirage.
Overall the Ithilmar's seem to come out way better as you scale up since this example was competitive cost-wise to a cheap extremely barebones and practically defenseless Heavy Jetbike.
From a self defense perspective the Ithilmar setup is overwhelmingly superior as the Ithilmar's themselves are capable of 1v1ing Meganob's in CQC while unarmed and also come with a Sunblaster Pistol each plus a fully equipped Mirage which has a bunch of Spike rifles Vs some guys in VGA with Flamer Pistols.
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Right now, only that we're not rolling out VGW as standard armor and the plasma weapons get too hot to hold for the brigandine that we're currently making.
I'd certainly consider a VGW + Plasma Rifle troop, with either grenades or conversion fields or maybe even both, to be a perfectly acceptable line unit.
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Again, for what purpose do you want line troops in large numbers? What do you want to conquer? What ground do you want to hold? Military should serve a purpose or it becomes a horrible abomination filled with strange creatures from the ocean's depths.
The initial idea of Power Armor (VGW and Ithilmar) for the main forces with militia getting the polished Guardian treatment was sound. MEQ and TEQ troops are perfect for achieving limited objectives - killing targets, sabotage, asset retrieval, boarding and so on. Situations where you want to hit hard, get your goal and then get the fuck away before all the millions of bastards have time to converge on you.
It's something that Vulkhari can do and other Craftworlds can at best not very successfully imitate. VGW is on par with heavy Aspect armor from canon and has a full holo-field on top of it.
Yeah, needler (high RoF), plasma (AoE) and probably some gravity weapon for the third time to round it all up.
- Location
- Germany
Its mostly a not happening thing for the retrofits, mostly due to lack of VGA.
But plasma will/really should be the standard for all of our troops because VGA is the armor i think we plan to put almost everyone into after we saw how the retrofits work.