Is it a problem if Alaitoc snowballs?

Adopting the Paths is not irreversible. Many Eldar step on and off them.

Currently, we don't have a solution we can offer. They do. It's a hard ask to say that people should let their souls be drained away and just wait for us to come up with a solution sometime in the indefinite future*, particularly when they can make the counterpoint that if we do come up with a very attractive solution, they can just adopt it then, using the Paths as an interim measure.

I think that's Biel-Tan And Iyanden's current view, when Slaneesh is defeated they can abandon the Paths and be their full selves again.

* particularly considering the lifespan of Eldar who aren't on the Paths or have another way to stave off the Thirst is very significantly reduced. The future Dark Eldar can replenish the energy sucked away by the Curse, but I don't think the Craftworlders can. Being on a Path just stops the bleeding, it doesn't restore what was lost, I think.
 
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It's a longshot, but I want to court Iyanden into leading the Adaptationists.

Their defining feature is Hope.

But we have proof that they are hoping for something impossible (the gods smiling at the Aeldari again), and we have the documentation to prove it.
But along with that bad news, we bring a (smaller) spark of hope, and an actionable, if extremely dangerous plan.

Our "faction" does not yet have a leader, and are a hodgepodge of craftworlds that think they have a plan. There is not much else that unites us.

A major craftworld would be shoe in for that leadership role.
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At this stage, the biggest difficulty to that plan is Alaitoc snowballing and absorbing the Revanchists, because they have a solution that works immediately.

And why would the craftworlds that want to change things and not rebuild the eldar dominion accept the major craftword that pretty much wants to keep things the same and to rebuild the eldar dominion ?

Our people don't give a shit about trying to reach for the old glory like Biel-Tan and Iyanden do.
 
And why would the craftworlds that want to change things and not rebuild the eldar dominion accept the major craftword that pretty much wants to keep things the same and to rebuild the eldar dominion ?

Our people don't give a shit about trying to reach for the old glory like Biel-Tan and Iyanden do.

I'm not sure, perhaps they'd love to reach for old glory they just think it's impossible, so instead want to reach for new glory instead.

That's by no means incompatible with the Revanchists broader vibe, it depends on how wedded they are to the idea of exactly recreating the old Dominion or whether they'd be content with creating a new Dominion with fewer gods, less blessings, and less fully automated space luxury.

Biel Tan may even be cool with the idea that in future the Eldar may need to personally go out and kill their enemies rather than relying on dispatching armies of psychomata while they sit at home and live-stream it.

We're not Preventionists who oppose the idea of restoring the old Dominion on principle, I think, we're pragmatists who think it can't be done.
 
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Is it a problem if Alaitoc snowballs?

Adopting the Paths is not irreversible. Many Eldar step on and off them.
It's a problem in as far as alaitoc doesn't like us.

And why would the craftworlds that want to change things and not rebuild the eldar dominion accept the major craftword that pretty much wants to keep things the same and to rebuild the eldar dominion ?

Our people don't give a shit about trying to reach for the old glory like Biel-Tan and Iyanden do.
The adaptationists don't have a long term goal other than adapting.

If the revanchists accept our claim that Isha still lives, they are also implicitly accepting that the other gods are gone for good.

And if they accept that, it goes without saying that the good old days aren't coming back: the blessings of the gods are gone for good.

So they would turn from revanchism to empire builders: except with the curses in play, they can't do that either.

So they'll become the driving force of the curse breaking movement, which is effectively adaptationist.

Empire building is only directly opposed by the preventionists.

I think most of the adaptationists will fall in with that imperialists after the REAL problem is solved.

Survivalists will be easy to draw in to that, because breaking the curses goes hand in hand with fighting chaos, and empire building is very conductive to the survival of the eldar.

This is also not mutually exclusive with alaitoc's plan, and in fact Adopting the Paths is a good stopgap solution.
But alaitoc are proud enough and won't like that.
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The trouble with the strategy of "fix the flaw and then imperialism", is Saim Hann and the exodites.
And they have a point.
But i think that finding a solution to the problem will be such a huge task, and take so long, that by the time the empire builders can start shit, the eldar will have settled into a confederation of independent cratworlds/systems that defend each other, and at that point, why change what works?
 
I'm not sure that Curse breaking is necessarily that adaptionist.

It seems plausible to do it without changing the Eldar, but instead change their situation. Kill Kairos and the Curse of Tzeentch will go. Rescue Isha and the Curse of Nurgle can't be continually renewed so will fade away.

The one that's more challenging, is of course, Slaneesh's Curse, but godforging Isha to be the new God-Queen of the Eldar seems like it would mostly be a social adaptation, like the Paths, rather than a fundamental change to Eldar nature.

That may not work, but it seems feasible it could, and it probably requires a combination of military might and social engineering.

Thinking about it, some of the methods that are being developed for the Paths, the ritual self-hypnosis and personality modification, might be the kind of things that could be effectively turned towards Godforging, if you could design a Path specialised in conceptualising Isha in a particular way that when she's rescued a large number of Eldar adopt, as it might ensure they believe very hard with all their might, and they all believe the same way hing so they're pushing in the same direction.
 
I mean this is also leaving out the fact, the Eldar still have outright holes in their souls that need to be patched up which can't be fixed with the path system. Also, I have to ask at this point. Alratan are you still trying to say we aren't going to reforge our souls when the QM has said we will?
 
I'm not sure that the Adaptionists are coherent enough to have thought leaders, as they may be a bit of the 'none of the above' category. If all they can agree on is that things need to change, that can mean very many and quite possibly radically contradictory things.
They likely do have leaders, at least in the sense of having Large or Average sized craftworlds who are influential off of the sheer size and strength of their population.
 
Don't have time for a full write up, but I'll try and summarise my idea for this first day.

TL: DR Today I want to prioritise getting Iyanden to leash Biel-Tan, with a secondary focus of sounding out other factions on the effects of the Flaw (and being seen to ask people about it).

Biel-Tan are most likely to have a problem with Radicals and Conservatives, so we touch base with both of these as our first two actions, both to bring up the fact that Biel-Tan were predicted to outright attack us and ask if there's other examples of kinstrife they can give us (hopefully a lot of the examples are Biel-Tan, for the sake of our argument, but any examples would help). We can also start sounding people out on how the Flaw has affected them since the Fall, and anything else they've noticed? See what people think of the Paths, and what they're hoping to use to fight the Flaw if not that, or even if they like the idea but something's holding them back. Basically see if they might be willing to go for our idea (without revealing said idea yet). Their reaction to the Ishari should be telling.

Then for our last action we go to Iyanden's faction, present the evidence we've found of kinstrife (including the non-Biel-Tan bits) and ask them to talk their more aggressive half down. Make a point that we're not just singling out BT in not killing other eldar, it should apply to everyone.
Also see if we can sound out their thoughts on how they want to deal with the Flaw as well.
 
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I'm not sure that Curse breaking is necessarily that adaptionist.

It seems plausible to do it without changing the Eldar, but instead change their situation. Kill Kairos and the Curse of Tzeentch will go. Rescue Isha and the Curse of Nurgle can't be continually renewed so will fade away.

The one that's more challenging, is of course, Slaneesh's Curse, but godforging Isha to be the new God-Queen of the Eldar seems like it would mostly be a social adaptation, like the Paths, rather than a fundamental change to Eldar nature.

That may not work, but it seems feasible it could, and it probably requires a combination of military might and social engineering.

Thinking about it, some of the methods that are being developed for the Paths, the ritual self-hypnosis and personality modification, might be the kind of things that could be effectively turned towards Godforging, if you could design a Path specialised in conceptualising Isha in a particular way that when she's rescued a large number of Eldar adopt, as it might ensure they believe very hard with all their might, and they all believe the same way hing so they're pushing in the same direction.
Alaitoc's Path of Asuryan is adaptationist. The galaxy has changed and so the Eldar need to adopt a new lifestyle tailored to match. Milquetoast.

Vau-Vulkesh probably called Alaitoc's plan a limp wristed solution that wouldn't fix anything. The equivalent of putting a the pieces of a fragmented gemstone in a hollow glass container shaped like a gemstone and calling it good.

Edit: imagine how Feanor would have put that. :o. The alaitoc envoy probably needed a burn ward.
 
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Edit: imagine how Feanor would have put that. :o. The alaitoc envoy probably needed a burn ward.

Worse than that.
They tried to pretend to fix the issue without actually understanding the issue or the underlaying problems that cause said issue.

It's why we have this meeting, actually.
Let's hope our guy isn't going to be too smug about this.
 
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[] Plan: This will be the day
I think your oversaturating the write ins a bit. should probably keep things to no more than 4 subjects per block, so none of the subjects is crammed in.

@Mechanis can we get an example write in to have an Idea of how these should be structured?

as for Beil-tan, their only superior partner is disapproving staring them into submission. there not going to do much harm. there here because Iyanden has no one else worth bringing. there going to act up, but it's not going to be anything major, but it might be enough by the end of the last day for Iyanden rep to go to bed with a headache and wake up the morning of the Aelmoot proper still mad and fed up with Beil-Tan.

Even if Biel Tan are assholes, as long as the other major powers are stopping them being assholes to other Eldar I think full tech sharing with everyone is a good idea.
we should approach Ulthwe and Saim-han with this first, the latter with a it'll fuck up Beil-tan's recruitment base spin on it, to gwt their support behind ensuring it's mutual.

It's a longshot, but I want to court Iyanden into leading the Adaptationists.
this is my hope as well. convince them that there is no going back, that they need innovative solutions and to build up something new rather than championing an empire that was vulnerable to the fall in the first place. that the Aeldari can move forward, paying homage to our past, but focus on being better off than we were first.
And why would the craftworlds that want to change things and not rebuild the eldar dominion accept the major craftword that pretty much wants to keep things the same and to rebuild the eldar dominion ?

Our people don't give a shit about trying to reach for the old glory like Biel-Tan and Iyanden do.
I think the key thing is to convince them the Aeldari need to recover, truly recover in a big way, before we can possibly try to be Hegemon. trillions lie dead and we can't replenish our numbers. for now they would be better server joining a cause on the rise, a cause without a leader, and stepping into that role whole heatedly, and working to better the situation of the Aeldari, so when we do recover by fully dealing with the curse, they have the credibility and established relations to try for dominion.

I mean this is also leaving out the fact, the Eldar still have outright holes in their souls that need to be patched up which can't be fixed with the path system. Also, I have to ask at this point. Alratan are you still trying to say we aren't going to reforge our souls when the QM has said we will?
I think he is saying we can resolve the curses by other means, rather than the lengthy, careful soul reforge that spends most of it's work combatting the curse of slaanesh and Nurgle. we'll already probably be doing this for The Eye of Tzeench. from there we can still reforge our soul, but it will be more about optimizing them for power and efficiency and maybe Synergistic Casting of Warp Spells, regaining a fraction of our former power rather than just resolving the curses.
TL: DR Today I want to prioritise getting Iyanden to leash Biel-Tan, with a secondary focus of sounding out other factions on the effects of the Flaw (and being seen to ask people about it).
I think the latter isn't necessary. we know the effects, and we shouldn't tip our hands on this too openly. we want to focus on Iyanden, Saim-han so they don't take a pride wound over us meeting with Iyanden day one but not them.

From there either Ulthwe for having Drayling the seerlord of meros talk up Eldrad Ulthran the farseer about seering and hinting at our willingness and ability to help them with aby problems there group is experiencing, meeting independents and nudging them towards our side, or meeting with other adaptionists and getting a list of the foremost craftworlds besides us and getting them all on the same page.

Then for our last action we go to Iyanden's faction, present the evidence we've found of kinstrife (including the non-Biel-Tan bits) and ask them to talk their more aggressive half down. Make a point that we're not just singling out BT in not killing other eldar, it should apply to everyone.
I think we should meet Iyanden first day one and try to nudge them from neutral into recognizing us as worthwhile allies to court, and talk to them about Beil-tan's behavior last block of day three so it's foremost in there mind at the start of the Aeldmoot proper.
 
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Worse than that.
They tried to pretend to fix the issue without actually understanding the issue or the underlaying problems that cause said issue.

It's why we have this meeting, actually.
Let's hope our guy isn't going to be too smug about this.
Aresh vul to the alaitoc delegation: i called you incompetent meddling nincompoops who have no idea what they're doing before, and now, behold <reveals 3d hologram of the eldar soul and a technical breakdown of the curses>. I was absolutely correct!
 
I mean this is also leaving out the fact, the Eldar still have outright holes in their souls that need to be patched up which can't be fixed with the path system. Also, I have to ask at this point. Alratan are you still trying to say we aren't going to reforge our souls when the QM has said we will?

I'd saying that the revanchists could reasonably believe that they don't need to reforge their souls to overcome the Curses and they may be right.

That wouldn't fix the broken bits of the Eldar's souls that are dependent for their function on now dead gods, so the Eldar would still be permanently diminished by their deaths, but fixing them doesn't seem necessary, just a potential nice to have compared to the importance of removing the Curses.

Us reforging our souls has nothing to do with whether they need to.

They likely do have leaders, at least in the sense of having Large or Average sized craftworlds who are influential off of the sheer size and strength of their population.

What I mean is that the Adaptionists may actually be a mess of many small competing ideologies who radically disagree with each other; and think theirs is the right way and the others are wrong. Saying you want change doesn't mean you agree on what the change should be.

Alaitoc's Path of Asuryan is adaptationist. The galaxy has changed and so the Eldar need to adopt a new lifestyle tailored to match. Milquetoast.

Vau-Vulkesh probably called Alaitoc's plan a limp wristed solution that wouldn't fix anything. The equivalent of putting a the pieces of a fragmented gemstone in a hollow glass container shaped like a gemstone and calling it good.

Edit: imagine how Feanor would have put that. :o. The alaitoc envoy probably needed a burn ward.

Yes, that's what we said. We said the Paths were an interim solution to a permanent problem, and at the time, with what we knew, we were arguably right.

Now, however, the information we're sharing in some ways (but not all) strengthens their hand, as there are facially plausible arguments that we only need an interim solution, as the Curses aren't necessarily permanent, and can potentially be broken.

On the other hand; we also now know that breaking the curse, while necessary, is not sufficient to recover our old power level.

If the Path followers are prepared to accept permanent diminishment, even once the Curses are broken, then the Paths are a fine solution for them, i.e. will keep them alive in the possibly exceedingly long interim until then.

We, however, are not satisfied with meekly accepting permanent diminishment. Not only do we want to break the Curses but we also want to once more bestride the galaxy as colossi, reforging ourselves into a new kind of demigods for a new age.

Or at least that's my interpretation.
 
We, however, are not satisfied with meekly accepting permanent diminishment. Not only do we want to break the Curses but we also want to once more bestride the galaxy as colossi, reforging ourselves into a new kind of demigods for a new age.
Why does biel-tan dislike us again?

Cos this is something that should warm their hearts to hear.
 
We already know Biel-tan can't attack us for like a few centuries, so I don't see why it's continuing to be brought up. They can't attack us because we brought info about the curses. It'd be political suicide.
 
Why does biel-tan dislike us again?

Cos this is something that should warm their hearts to hear.
because they can't pull this off, have a bad history with us, hate us for being the one of the people who put their "Everyone should just follow our lead" pitch a few years or decades prior to the fall into an early grave, and have to much trauma to deal with having to admit they aren't half the Aeldari they were pre-fall.
We already know Biel-tan can't attack us for like a few centuries, so I don't see why it's continuing to be brought up. They can't attack us because we brought info about the curses. It'd be political suicide.
I think we want Iyanden keeping them from going after other, less politically significant surviving craftworlds and Exodites. get them to keep their mad dog on a tighter, sturdier leash.
 
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I'm going to be busy today, so I won't be in a position to push a plan forward, I'll advise regarding any issues I might see, but don't expect much until I sort my business out.
 
because they can't pull this off, have a bad history with us, hate us for being the one of the people who put their "Everyone should just follow our lead" pitch a few years or decades prior to the fall into an early grave, and have to much trauma to deal with having to admit they aren't half the Aeldari they were pre-fall.
Well yes, but in light of that statement i quoted, it's particularly stupid.
That's like, everything they want, but with a plan to get there.
 
It's a longshot, but I want to court Iyanden into leading the Adaptationists.

Their defining feature is Hope.

But we have proof that they are hoping for something impossible (the gods smiling at the Aeldari again), and we have the documentation to prove it.
But along with that bad news, we bring a (smaller) spark of hope, and an actionable, if extremely dangerous plan.

Our "faction" does not yet have a leader, and are a hodgepodge of craftworlds that think they have a plan. There is not much else that unites us.

A major craftworld would be shoe in for that leadership role.
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At this stage, the biggest difficulty to that plan is Alaitoc snowballing and absorbing the Revanchists, because they have a solution that works immediately.
Oh, I would love to get Iyanden on our side. Do not mistake my dismissal of them during the first day as dislike of them. Of all the craftworld in 40k I admire them the most, but that's the thing most of things I admire in them are yet to come and thus I want to deal with people we respect in character first.

But back to your point, unless we manage to be as lucky as we were with curses, I don't see us getting them during this Aeldmoot, maybe make them respect us and be cordial with us like Ulthwe is currently with them, but getting them to rebrand would be a hard sell.
We should use the opportunity to make the eldar United Nations. An arena to come together and solve problems. Starting with immediate mutual non-agression pacts; no eldar should kill another when the soul of the dying feeds the great enemy. And immediate food aid to all who needs it.

Probably ambitious, but...
I think that it would be hard and a bit impractical and very hard to enforce, but getting people to agree for a 2nd Aeldmoot, could be possible maybe as a timed event or if something important happens (be it great crusade starting, commoragh being discovered to survive or assassination of the pigeon). The UN has a hard time functioning with only one planet to deal with; could you imagine Vile-Tan with veto powers? With the decentralised state of galaxy, United Nation of Eldar won't work until the situation stabilises and given our nature as people willing to adapt we are more likely to get stronger by the time it happens (admittedly chad Iyanden will also grow in power but the radicalisation of Revanchists that will follow is worth it)
Is it a problem if Alaitoc snowballs?

Adopting the Paths is not irreversible. Many Eldar step on and off them.

Currently, we don't have a solution we can offer. They do. It's a hard ask to say that people should let their souls be drained away and just wait for us to come up with a solution sometime in the indefinite future*, particularly when they can make the counterpoint that if we do come up with a very attractive solution, they can just adopt it then, using the Paths as an interim measure.

I think that's Biel-Tan And Iyanden's current view, when Slaneesh is defeated they can abandon the Paths and be their full selves again.

* particularly considering the lifespan of Eldar who aren't on the Paths or have another way to stave off the Thirst is very significantly reduced. The future Dark Eldar can replenish the energy sucked away by the Curse, but I don't think the Craftworlders can. Being on a Path just stops the bleeding, it doesn't restore what was lost, I think.
Honestly, if the meeting rolls are higher than 40, I don't see Asuryani snowballing being a problem. It is a good defence strategy. It is foolish without a solution to the curses, but it can be adapted to work with our camp. If we put some adaptionists that are close in location and spirit to Alaitoc in contact with them, I could see them thinking quite well about us.
We called them fools for just waiting and they thought of us as fools for risking
 
[] Plan: This will be the day
-[ ] First Block: Meeting with Adaptionists: trying to check who is doing what and which solutions are not mutually exclusive, seeing who is the leading voice among us and if there isn't one, try to become one if only so other factions may see adaption and teamwork between different ideas as something that can be done. See if Biel-Tan is a universal problem, also known as asking about their general opinions of Major Craftworlds and other factions.
-[ ] Second Block: Meet Survivalists, try to get to know them and leave a good impression, and talk about the possibility of using the fact that this is the biggest gathering of Aeldari since the fall to form multiparty committees to deal with a few universal problems that lessen the chances of survival of Aeldari (Seers, scarcity, and need for new/adapted war doctrines, among others). If a topic comes up, get their opinion on Biel-Tan and other Craftworlds of note.
-[ ] Third Block: Meet Saim-Hann & Exodites & the Conservationists, give them the respect they deserve, see how the fall impacted them, how they are adapting their plan to work with most of the gods' dead, try to have a pleasant last meeting, gather their opinions of other notable craftworlds in general and complaints about Biel-Tan in particular, give Saim-Hann a forewarning that we probably will try talking with Iyanden about Biel-Tan being an asshole relatively soon.

I am not Alectai, so don't expect a summary or explanation of my reasons from many previous posts, but I will give an inspiration of the commites thing proposed to survivalists. I am using the example of the Congress of Vienna and its sub-committees, which were focused on particular details like Rhine, Italy, etc.

@Mechanis Is this good? And @Alectai, any advice/detected issues?
 
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Maybe one of the things we could request is that the Aeldmoot become a regular thing, as a way to keep in touch with everyone and trade news of import, share knowledge, learn directly of the troubles that plague the Aeldari of the galaxy etc.

As well as being able to call one when events of significance happen (Great Crusade, etc).
 
I think we want Iyanden keeping them from going after other, less politically significant surviving craftworlds and Exodites. get them to keep their mad dog on a tighter, sturdier leash.

That's fair. But if they find out about Isha being alive and every other one except for Khaine being dead they might switch to empire building in general rather than reverting back to the dominion, since what's gone is gone, for now?

First are the Radicals or Adaptionists, into which your own coalition can be considered to fall. The thrust of this camp's philosophy is that the galaxy has irreversibly changed in the wake of the Fall and the Aeldari must change with it—though the nature and extent of said changes are highly varied within that grouping. No single voice is preeminent here, but there are many coalitions of like-minded Craftworlds which either ended their flight from the Fall in close proximity or were put in contact with each other by the Harlequins, suggesting at least tacit support from the Laughing God.

But if the Ishari gained the protection of the harlequinns, wouldn't the other smaller radicals gain that protection too?

[] Plan: This will be the day
-[ ] First Block: Meeting with Adaptionists: trying to check who is doing what and which solutions are not mutually exclusive, seeing who is the leading voice among us and if there isn't one, try to become one if only so other factions may see adaption and teamwork between different ideas as something that can be done. See if Biel-Tan is a universal problem, also known as asking about their general opinions of Major Craftworlds and other factions.
-[ ] Second Block: Meet Survivalists, try to get to know them and leave a good impression, and talk about the possibility of using the fact that this is the biggest gathering of Aeldari since the fall to form multiparty committees to deal with a few universal problems that lessen the chances of survival of Aeldari (Seers, scarcity, and new naval doctrines, among others). If a topic comes up, get their opinion on Biel-Tan and other Craftworlds of note.
-[ ] Third Block: Meet Saim-Hann & Exodites & the Conservationists, give them the respect they deserve, see how the fall impacted them, how they are adapting their plan to work with most of the gods' dead, try to have a pleasant last meeting, gather their opinions of other notable craftworlds in general and complaints about Biel-Tan in particular, give Saim-Hann a forewarning that we probably will try talking with Iyanden about Biel-Tan being an asshole relatively soon.

@Mechanis Is this good? And @Alectai, any advice/detected issues?

I'd say, get rid of the Biel-Tan stuff when it comes to the adaptionists/radicals, we already know they're against soul modification in general.

The survivalists are pragmatic and would be a good ally for the soul forging stuff as long as they know it's possible and if it'll have good results. We could probably try to workshop it so they can keep their current form if they're invested in it, so it'd be good to try to find out what their thoughts on it is, and what possible results they'd like.

We should also try to get trade deals, tech exchanges, it'd be best to involve the forgemaster since it was mentioned in his description that he'd be good for conducting deals with martial craftworlds and non martial ones looking for patrons, so I'd imagine he'd be good with the Independents as well. It'd also be a good idea to involve Dreylin (seerlord from meros) since his voice has a lot of sway with most eldar, so he'd be a good way of to make us the leaders of the adaptionists/radicals. We're already leading our coalition, so the next step would be leading the radical faction in general, which would help us gain more info about soul forging/modification in general, and controlling the method/direction of the soul forging in general for many eldar.
 
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Oooo.

We could do a Greek thing where we turn the Aeldmoot into a festival. We could host sporting events, competitions, a feast, etc, to celebrate another cycle of us not going extinct.

Yaaaay. We didn't die! Again!

Instead of just an extended political meeting.
 
Maybe one of the things we could request is that the Aeldmoot become a regular thing, as a way to keep in touch with everyone and trade news of import, share knowledge, learn directly of the troubles that plague the Aeldari of the galaxy etc.

As well as being able to call one when events of significance happen (Great Crusade, etc).
Good idea, but I would wait until after we drop the double bomb on the true nature of curses and Isha's survival. Asking for it now would be a bit... much given our lesser status compared to majors (our discovery will probably amount to us being plus one to the 5 Majors). I think that Survivalists and Iyanden are likely also to propose something similar.
 
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