The problem is that we've inherited the knowledge of how to automate the manifestation of wraithbone spikes from nowehere. I doubt we know how to manifest poison from nowhere, and I doubt we want to try something radical to change that like inventing God-Tech of Shaimesh, Lord of Poisons, to change that. The Dark Eldar at least believe the Cosmic Serpent's evil brother survived the Fall and so is worthy of worship as one of the Dark Muses
Well we can probably make enough material that unless your going out for an extended stay, you wont need to run out, or reload. Depending on the lethality. And even if you do run out, your gun fires an unending stream of ultra-sharp wraithbone needles.
 
Interestingly enough, the destroyer we have that mounts Lascannon PD costs a full turn to make, and doesn't have a batch discount listed.

Even Lascannon PD isn't cheap, it seems.

... Huh, weird. The Sloop shouldn't actually cost more than the Cutter. I wonder if that's just a consequence of what we did with the Nettle?

Either way, that's definitely odd.
 
So in regard to most efficiently convert BAP to EP.

We already know that the passive production from the foundries long term will (massively) out scale what we would get from direct BAP investment.

But it's also pretty easy to show that direct BAP investment can lead to much higher efficiency (the direct EP conversion of the foundry doesn't matter here as the look is more at output turns).

Let's compare stuff here both side do a 6BAP investment then following turn 2BAP each.
First one goes for just foundries:
3xFoundry
1xFoundry
1xFoundry
Start turn 4: 12 foundries worth of output
Turn 8: 32 foundries worth of output

Second one goes for 2 enhance industry that both take 3 turns:
2x Enhance Industry
- Build upkeep
- Build upkeep.
Start turn 4, +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
5: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
6: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
7: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
8: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
Turn 8: 5 Foundries, 10 foundries worth of output, per turn output parity

If the get 1 more foundry gets add keeps up until like turn 14 then, the Enhance Industry will have almost caught up with total production (55vs62) but will have double the per turn output.

So now is the question can we take the short term production loss and just boost out a lot of BAP infrastructure to massively scale up in the midterm.

(Might actually make a spreadsheet to see how continuous 6 BAP investment looks with and without Forge actions).
 
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Well we can probably make enough material that unless your going out for an extended stay, you wont need to run out, or reload. Depending on the lethality. And even if you do run out, your gun fires an unending stream of ultra-sharp wraithbone needles.

I think the point of Needlers is that they put an enormous volume of fire down range, so they'd run through any reservoir of poison very fast.

And I think the politics of getting into the Black Arts of Shaimesh (the Eldar term for poison crafting) would be quite bad as well.
 
... Huh, weird. The Sloop shouldn't actually cost more than the Cutter. I wonder if that's just a consequence of what we did with the Nettle?

Either way, that's definitely odd.
Excluding the Aethersails and hull, the Sloops weapons cost 8+12=20 NEP (Heavy Las-Lance and Las PD), and the Cutters weapons cost 5+5=10 NEP (2 Las Lances).

The weird part is that despite being cheaper than the Nettle the Sloop can't be batch built.
 
The Sloop shouldn't actually cost more than the Cutter.
Sloop has a PD grid, Cutter doesn't. And we've been going over how PD is very expensive.

Wait, it should still be cheaper than the Nettle, right. Huh.
So now is the question can we take the short term production loss and just boost out a lot of BAP infrastructure to massively scale up in the midterm.
I'm in favor. The reason to make factories now would be because we expect to need their production soon-ish, but the sooner we get more BP the faster it compounds.
 
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(Might actually make a spreadsheet to see how continuous 6 BAP investment looks with and without Forge actions).
Word of advice on the spreadsheet. Make the equations a single step per cell(so (x+Y)×Z) is two cells), you can hide rows/columns so it doesn't interfere with readablity. And it makes changing things later much easier (like say a new way to get BAP)

I would know. I made a spreadsheet for a diffrent quest.
 
Until we Know How much EP worth of something a foundry puts out, we really can't guesstimate anything. Hell, Its fully possible the Vehicle Foundry Outputs more EP then the Armour and Weapon Foundry, Becasue it costs more Action points to set up, and Vehicles tend to be more expensive.

Shit data in, Shit data out, until we have hard data spreadsheets will probably just give us the wrong idea based off of guesstimates.
 
Please don't make spreadsheets when we don't even have all the information yet

We don't actually need direct EP values for this.
It mostly is about Foundry output as an abstraction per turn, then direct values.

One side has this C turn of total foundry output vs the other side's this Y turns of total output

The one thing that might spike it is the overall industry scaling of BAP investment.
 
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Hmm.

Anyway, I think going forward, we should probably commit at least half of our BAP towards building our industry (Either in the form of Foundries or just increasing our BAP or whatever), a quarter of our BAP working on our engines, and the remainder either doing refits or fulfilling Obligations, at least until we've gotten our entire starting fleet back in action and rationalized.
 
The one thing that might spike it is the overall industry scaling of BAP investment.
Eeeh. The overall industry scaling increasing factory output isn't exactly an argument not to take Enhance Industry actions.

The argument about building factories soon is the classic guns/butter argument; getting smashed in the face by a war is even worse for our overall production than spending some of it building wargear, and if we're going to build wargear factories are far better than having bonesingers build it directly.

I think going forward, we should probably commit at least half of our BAP towards building our industry (Either in the form of Foundries or just increasing our BAP or whatever), a quarter of our BAP working on our engines, and the remainder either doing refits or fulfilling Obligations.
I'm certainly in favor. That means v. limited BAP for tech development, but fitting in one or two items the very turn we plan to use them should still be possible.
 
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(Might actually make a spreadsheet to see how continuous 6 BAP investment looks with and without Forge actions).

I did it above, here, comparing:

Scenario 1: Enhancing industry once and then building Foundries of the same type (no Forge actions)
versus
Scenario 2: spending the same initial BP on Foundries of the same type up front happens on turn 15 from the start (still no Forge actions)

This assumes we're investing enough BP that I can scale based on fractional Foundries. It only works perfectly given the fractions if we do 4 Enhance Industry actions to start, but it makes the presentation much cleaner, so I've normalised around one Enhance Industry action.

This further assumes that Forge output is not subject to diminishing returns and being conservative and assuming that extra total BP does not improve Foundry production, as that will only improve the returns to scenario 1.

We have to make simplifying assumptions like this, as we need to make decisions based on the information we know, and we need to model this some way before deciding to do the things that would clarify these factors like making second foundries of the same type, running the same foundry for multiple turns or Enhancing Industry to see the effect on production.

All production measured in units of what one foundry produces in one turn, so the actual production level is irrelevant for the purposes of this comparison:

Turn
Expected BP Expenditure

Scenario 1 Expected # Foundries

Scenario 2 Expected # Foundries

Scenario 1 Total Production Units
Scenario 2 Total Production Units
13
211.501.5
30.5203.5
42.2505.75
50.52.250.58
612.251.510.25
71.52.25312.5
822.25514.75
92.52.257.517
1032.2510.519.25
113.52.251421.5
1242.251823.75
134.52.2522.526
1452.2527.528.25
155.52.253330.5
1662.253932.75
176.52.2545.535
1872.2552.537.25
197.52.256039.5
2082.256841.75
218.52.2576.544
2292.2585.546.25
239.52.259548.5
24102.2510550.75
2510.52.25115.553

Until we Know How much EP worth of something a foundry puts out, we really can't guesstimate anything. Hell, Its fully possible the Vehicle Foundry Outputs more EP then the Armour and Weapon Foundry, Becasue it costs more Action points to set up, and Vehicles tend to be more expensive.

Shit data in, Shit data out, until we have hard data spreadsheets will probably just give us the wrong idea based off of guesstimates.

That's not correct. As long as foundries are linearly additive, so two foundries produce the twice the amount as one does, and that the production is stable, so a foundry produces the same amount one turn as the next turn, you can produce valid results.

The actual production of a foundry is irrelevant, as we're making a relative proportional comparison. It doesn't matter how much EP a given foundry produces, we can compare two scenarios and say that one produces a certain multiple of the other scenario's production, whatever the two absolute numbers are, we can calculate the relative production rates.

That's just how the maths works.

What we can't say is how one kind of foundry compared to another kind of foundry, but we very well can say what's the most effective strategy for producing the maximum amount of a single type of equipment over a given timeframe, as we're comparing like with like.

The one thing that might spike it is the overall industry scaling of BAP investment.

However, we know what direction that factor will go in, we know it will aways favour Enhancing Industry first and foundries later, so if we make a judgement about when crossover points come, we can always say that's the latest point the break-even time occurs, and it's either then or earlier.
 
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Hmm.

Anyway, I think going forward, we should probably commit at least half of our BAP towards building our industry (Either in the form of Foundries or otherwise), a quarter of our BAP working on our engines, and the remainder either doing refits or fulfilling Obligations.

Quick math says we would like the BAP infrastructure there very much.
After 12 turns of keeping half the BP on it (and a bit less at time due to not having 3 AP for an extra industry due to upkeep) and assuming the EH project always taking 3 turns the total BAP count is at 31 and after that rapidly growing.
 
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Eeeh. The overall industry scaling increasing factory output isn't exactly an argument not to take Enhance Industry actions.

The argument about building factories soon is the classic guns/butter argument; getting smashed in the face by a war is even worse for our overall production than spending some of it building wargear, and if we're going to build wargear factories are far better than having bonesingers build it directly.


I'm certainly in favor. That means v. limited BAP for tech development, but fitting in one or two items the very turn we plan to use them should still be possible.
Honestly we are probably set for tech for a bit.
 
Grenades could be very meaningful and very cheap. I'd argue for picking up handheld auspex if we're rationalizing elite infantry, because I'd like the mortar teams to have it. Etc. But if we do any, it should be because we expect to use it immediately. Not just because we expect it to unlock something cool.

We should be able to have some bit of AP, that we can use to grab some of the techs.
Have something like 4-5 Turn before mass redesign should start.
 
Torpedoes is probably another one we will want to get given how many people have wanted to turn our Sloop hulls into torpedo boats and how many Sloop hulls we've got lying around.
 
We should be able to have some bit of AP, that we can use to grab some of the techs.
At the moment, we really don't. Especially with the Orks meaning we can't really afford to keep putting off repairing our engines.

As I said, maybe one or two things on the turn we expect to be using them. 6 to Enhance Industry, 3 to repair and 2 to obligations gives us very little flex, and we might want to put the first into getting the power system controls over with just in case, and we might pick up an additional obligation or two from the moot.

The only place we could really shake loose the AP is from Enhance Industry, and that's more valuable than developing a tech or two in the turns before we use it. Once the engines are mostly fixed I'll shift on this.
 
The biggest limit there is that it takes significantly more time and effort to ramp up production of Special Resources than it does equipment in general. They need very high end, very specialized equipment and equally rare and specialized skillsets that take years to train in---it's like the difference between training people to work in a car garage, and training a nuclear reactor operator. Or the difference between a truck driver and an Astronaut.
Your recruiting pool is small to even start, in high demand for at least four other critical fields, and the infrastructure for training them has limited throughput. Whereas even High Technology, for the most part, is fairly easy to ramp up.
Would freeing up some of the psychic might currently bound up fighting off the Thirst and/or regaining some of our Deep Lore (whether for use in optimizing the manufacturing project or just more effective telepathic training) help mitigate those bottlenecks?

Also, what's the subtle side of the Thirst? Since I think you mentioned all three curses having subtle effects in addition to the obvious ones. Or is it basically exactly what it says on the tin and just "something's constantly trying to drink your soul, deal with it".
 
Or find a dead craftworld and recover its fleet from where they sit in dock.
if we find a dead craft world breaking it up for rapid expansion might be doable. probably a multi turn project even with Forge of Vaule assistance, but maybe worth the effort.
So in regard to most efficiently convert BAP to EP.

We already know that the passive production from the foundries long term will (massively) out scale what we would get from direct BAP investment.

But it's also pretty easy to show that direct BAP investment can lead to much higher efficiency (the direct EP conversion of the foundry doesn't matter here as the look is more at output turns).

Let's compare stuff here both side do a 6BAP investment then following turn 2BAP each.
First one goes for just foundries:
3xFoundry
1xFoundry
1xFoundry
Start turn 4: 12 foundries worth of output
Turn 8: 32 foundries worth of output

Second one goes for 2 enhance industry that both take 3 turns:
2x Enhance Industry
- Build upkeep
- Build upkeep.
Start turn 4, +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
5: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
6: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
7: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
8: +2 BAP -> 1 Foundry
Turn 8: 5 Foundries, 10 foundries worth of output, per turn output parity

If the get 1 more foundry gets add keeps up until like turn 14 then, the Enhance Industry will have almost caught up with total production (55vs62) but will have double the per turn output.

So now is the question can we take the short term production loss and just boost out a lot of BAP infrastructure to massively scale up in the midterm.

(Might actually make a spreadsheet to see how continuous 6 BAP investment looks with and without Forge actions).
I think long-term we aren't going to be able to hard focus on expanding either continuously once we work through our refits and need to build fleets. short term however we should Raise Bap for a few turns while we unlock a few more tech and design various bits of our army before we transition to making a handful of foundries every turn to set our wargear production up.
I'm still hopeful that we can go to one of the True Stars and just collect ships with dead crews orbiting the worlds in those systems.
problem is we then need to design a refit suitable to that hall, and that also leads to fleet inconsistency. ultimately, we are going to have to bite the bullet and just make ships in bulk every few turns. haste makes waste.
Hmm.

Anyway, I think going forward, we should probably commit at least half of our BAP towards building our industry (Either in the form of Foundries or just increasing our BAP or whatever), a quarter of our BAP working on our engines, and the remainder either doing refits or fulfilling Obligations, at least until we've gotten our entire starting fleet back in action and rationalized.
Ironically the my current plan for turn 5 uses exactly 8/15 Bap for 2 enhance Industry +forge of vaul each and 1 armor factory. the other AP go to Arach-qin and Quilan arrangements, Replacing Primary power distribution, with a point left over that I was planning for developing Grenades or one of the other single ap develop actions, but could be put on refit instead.
 
Grenades could be very meaningful and very cheap. I'd argue for picking up handheld auspex if we're rationalizing elite infantry, because I'd like the mortar teams to have it. Etc. But if we do any, it should be because we expect to use it immediately. Not just because we expect it to unlock something cool.

I can see a reason, if we're looking to design artillery for our army, to consider Monofilament Weaponry, as it's probably quite good, and we can design more vehicles at this point, and it fills a different role to fusion bombards, and one that while we have a small army is particularly useful, as the semi-persistent nature of monofilament artillery allows us to shape the battlefield like minefields do

Still, there need to be good justifications.

I do understand what you mean though. Long run I'd like to see if we can combine Hotshot and Starblasters, but it's speculative. Same with missile launchers in the hope that we can get a more effective way of leveraging Fatescopes by making Fate guided (micro-)rockets, designed to hit weak spots in armour, and then explode on the inside.

All sound potentially very effective, but none are at all guaranteed. We don't have enough BP to go trawling for such things.

There's also the option, which I have to admit I'm not at all convinced is possible, that some future development of the Hall of Steward might unlock the option for tech sharing, at which point having spent BAP to reinvent the wheel for technology our allies have, possibly before we've even deployed any of that technology, would be rather frustrating.

Torpedoes is probably another one we will want to get given how many people have wanted to turn our Sloop hulls into torpedo boats and how many Sloop hulls we've got lying around.

That really comes down to whether we have to pay to replace torpedoes if the 'precedent' in the Rogue Trader game suggests, where it's the balancing factor for how they allow small ships to punch up. Just because we don't have to pay for other reloads doesn't mean we don't have to pay for them, as torpedoes are a lot more sophisticated and larger than other ammo we have.

Of course, this is something we may only learn after we do the research.

Also, what's the subtle side of the Thirst? Since I think you mentioned all three curses having subtle effects in addition to the obvious ones. Or is it basically exactly what it says on the tin and just "something's constantly trying to drink your soul, deal with it".

I'll look for the quote, but I think the that Eldar who aren't on the Path have the energy continually sucked from the 'holes' in their soul, very slowly in the Webway behind its wards, and more quickly in real space. Being on the Path or living the Exodite lifestyle allows you to hold the holes closed so their energy can't be sucked out. Later Dark Eldar don't close the holes, they just eat more energy* to replace what is lost.

Corsairs and Rangers, who are none of the above, just like us, just slowly fade away over the decades and centuries as their soul is gradually drained away. I think that how long a person can survive the Soul Thirst varies, the very strong willed can slow the rate of loss with pure determination and survive it for centuries, others die or have no choice but to go Dark or return to the Paths after years or decades.

* note that Dark Eldar don't have to eat the psychic energies emitted as a result of pain or suffering alone. There's a vignette in a Codex of a Dark Eldar Archon feeding on the energy of the emotions of a crowd who were watching a Harlequin Troop perform. Any sufficiently strong emotion will do. It's just easy for them to induce very strong emotions of pain and suffering, so that's what they do.
 
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I can see a reason, if we're looking to design artillery for our army, to consider Monofilament Weaponry, as it's probably quite good, and we can design more vehicles at this point, and it fills a different role to fusion bombards, and one that while we have a small army is particularly useful, as the semi-persistent nature of monofilament artillery allows us to shape the battlefield like minefields do

Still, there need to be good justifications.
Yeah.

I've no doubt monofilament has a bunch of good shit unlocked by it. But we don't need a second form of bombard before we've even done anything with the first, and it's a full 3 AP - enough to start an Enhanced Industry outright.

And there's the possibility - given the context I'm not going to call it a "hope" - that we'll end up with a discount to monofilament development in the future.
 
At the moment, we really don't. Especially with the Orks meaning we can't really afford to keep putting off repairing our engines.

As I said, maybe one or two things on the turn we expect to be using them. 6 to Enhance Industry, 3 to repair and 2 to obligations gives us very little flex, and we might want to put the first into getting the power system controls over with just in case, and we might pick up an additional obligation or two from the moot.

The only place we could really shake loose the AP is from Enhance Industry, and that's more valuable than developing a tech or two in the turns before we use it. Once the engines are mostly fixed I'll shift on this.

Pretty sure the Engine is pretty doable in 3 turns with some investment.
1. Finish the 4AP part, 6 AP on EH + 2 Forge (leaves 3 AP)
2. 3AP+Forge action on Plasma, +3 Small error, 6 AP on EH+1Forge, (Leaves 3 AP due to like 2 finished EH)
3. Finish last bit of Plasma + Small error stuff max 9 AP, 6 2EH+2Forge (1 EH still under construction so next turn +2)
-Engine is finished Here.
4. Should have around 19AP total to play with, should likely start investing 9 into EH.

And we do have some "free" AP around, turn 4 would likely be the one where we grab a lot of tech we want for the army redesign

I think long-term we aren't going to be able to hard focus on expanding either continuously once we work through our refits and need to build fleets. short term however we should Raise Bap for a few turns while we unlock a few more tech and design various bits of our army before we transition to making a handful of foundries every turn to set our wargear production up.

Kind of easy to keep BAP going if you keep constant investment after a bit, due to the growing number of BAP even if you have half of the BAP on making more.
 
At the moment, we really don't. Especially with the Orks meaning we can't really afford to keep putting off repairing our engines.
we definitely need to start them turn 5, but we can afford to do just power distribution. the Ork leader doesn't know where our world is and he isn't going to find us for at least several turns. we can spend 2 AP each turn on the Minor failures and 3 AP Repairing Plasma System from turns 6 through 8, allowing us to finish engine repairs turn 9. this leaves us with 10 AP. 2 for obligations, 2 for an armor or weapon foundry each turn, and 6 for enhance industry, plus whatever increases over the course of those turns.

for now that's enough of a good basic setup that we can adjust the Bonesinger AP we acquire from this point on as things develop further. probably end up skipping a foundry turn 7 or 8 to start a Grand Academy or some such.
Pretty sure the Engine is pretty doable in 3 turns with some investment.
1. Finish the 4AP part, 6 AP on EH + 2 Forge (leaves 3 AP)
2. 3AP+Forge action on Plasma, +3 Small error, 6 AP on EH+1Forge, (Leaves 3 AP due to like 2 finished EH)
3. Finish last bit of Plasma + Small error stuff max 9 AP, 6 2EH+2Forge (1 EH still under construction so next turn +2)
-Engine is finished Here.
4. Should have around 19AP total to play with, should likely start investing 9 into EH.

And we do have some "free" AP around, turn 4 would likely be the one where we grab a lot of tech we want for the army redesign



Kind of easy to keep BAP going if you keep constant investment after a bit, due to the growing number of BAP even if you have half of the BAP on making more.
fair enough.
 
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