A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- United Kingdom
Considering how much we have on our plate for Bonesinger AP I'm tempted to leave this until next turn. I think they'd understand.
Wait, we did? I counted 2 AP spent on Arach-Qin and Quilan's ships, and 8 AP spent on War Ketches, I'm not seeing anything about fixing the engines.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
God my eyes literally glossed over that in the flaws list when I first read it, you actually did it.
- Location
- United Kingdom
I honestly thought it was so blatant I didn't think to comment on it.
Now if you'd given it a Flaw which made it and the person shooting it explode if they used an energy weapon that'd be funny (if completely impractical).
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dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
- Location
- Behind you
Heh, yeah. I recognized what you were referencing immediately
Also @Mechanis I have a question, or well, two.
1. Can we get an action to go beat up some orks to field test our new gear.
2. Can we get an action to get advice about or weapons/do some wargame testing with Zahr-Tann
Mechanis
Confirmed Techpriest
- Location
- Deep Net
Huh. You're right. Well, fixed.
Okay, message received. Thread, any chance we can fit in the Shrine of Khaine this turn?
Are you sure? It looks like the two Star Anvils we built last turn are currently sitting in the Turn 4 stockpile which indicates you can attach them to a detachment.
I don't think we produced any Spike Carbines last turn so they shouldn't be deployable since the crew wouldn't have any guns if that were the case.
@Mechanis does the "Vehicles Quick Reference Table" costs include the crew costs?
If that's not the case you could drop the Grav-Shield and it'd still be a reasonably decent tank (Zahr-Tann's Halberd is probably better but cost wise it probably isn't too far from from being as costly as a Starhammer).
yah, a carefully slowed blade, At the grade of melee combat we really care about that doesn't have eldar warriors cutting through the enemy a scythe through wheat, Space marines, Ork nobs, Deamons, eldar, Necrons are all Commonly skilled enough to take advantage of that weakness (Yes, I am including Orks, Its melee, Underestimating their skill at melee is typically the last mistake many beings in the galaxy makes).
Its incredibly common for the grade of being that can match your typical eldar warrior in melee to be skilled enough to exploit that kind of flaw.
Mechanis
Confirmed Techpriest
- Location
- Deep Net
Maybe if this was an Orkz Qwest, since book-lore is actually that both the laser and the generator explode, but yeah, this is an Eldar quest.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Interesting, given we're spending 64 EP on shields and crew and 156 EP on the chassis I think it's worth getting more out of an individual hull in terms of cost effective weaponry.
Less Cheap 5x Suncannon MBT
2x Suncannon: 60EP
Heavy Needler: 10EP
Holofield: 18EP
2x Grav-Shield: 60EP
4x Brigandine: 8EP
4x Needler Pistols: 8EP:
Chassis: 156EP
Math: 60+10+18+60+8+8+156=320EP
2x Suncannon: 60EP
Heavy Needler: 10EP
Holofield: 18EP
2x Grav-Shield: 60EP
4x Brigandine: 8EP
4x Needler Pistols: 8EP:
Chassis: 156EP
Math: 60+10+18+60+8+8+156=320EP
I will say, comparing some of our Grav/Plasma weapons- infantry and heavy exotic weapons don't seem to be too incredibly EP expensive. Even the Fatesever is cost competitive with some of the fancier vehicle weapons we researched (and 2 Psy-scopes for a vehicle gun is peanuts). It's just the Starlance is the single more expensive vehicle gun we have.
Fair, but we literally did not even know the Shrine of Khaine was a build option when we were laying out our troop rationalizations. The way the system has unfolded from our limited perspective as players was never conducive to good or grounded decision-making. That's not a complaint, that's just saying we've got to retread a lot of ground we obviously thought we were in the process of covering. We could have just about had it this turn unless we rushed it with VAP, and we didn't have any reason to think it was urgent given our obvious difficulties using 5 WAP (which is what the Troop rationalizations were informed around). And we had little context for how weak we were and how out of tune our decision making actually was (and it probably would have been on relatively similar lines after the Troop rationalization even if we started the Shrine- simply because so much had to flow based off the limited foundations we established during the rationalizations- dedicated transports, how many detachments we were planning a turn, etc).
This is honestly a masterful case of limited information helping players make some incredibly questionable decisions that were perfectly in character and informed by the context we had. I'm impressed even as I'm naturally frustrated with our past turns.
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Yeah. It's 3 AP to start construction.
Count it as the Industry pick I've been calling for, since it apparently does more than just give us Warrior AP.
Honestly, I can FULLY picture these master craftsmen running around and debating with each other in circles going "HOW DO WE MILITARY?!?!" Like the Players are with their planning. It is very amusing to me to picture what the eldar equivalent to our decision making apparatus is doing when we are Planning and bickering.
We need the shrine of khaine... But we Really need the halls of stewardship... But we really need foundrys... Aaargh Action economy!!!
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Mechanis
Confirmed Techpriest
- Location
- Deep Net
The QRTs are for the equipment listed only. Or in other words, Crew Equipment Sold Separately™.
Things being in your stockpile just means you have them sitting in a vault somewhere, not that you have bodies to work it and that you can break it out in a Crisis, not necessarily that it is in a ready-to-deploy state.
- Location
- United Kingdom
So maybe something like this for the 12 Bonesinger AP?
[ ] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP Each, 12 Max) (3AP plus a Forge AP)
[ ] Hall of Stewardship (2 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2 turns) (2AP)
[ ] Shrine of Khaine (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns) (3AP)
[ ] Continue ship repair (1 point) [Strongly recommended] (1AP)
[ ] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
[ ] Armor Foundry (Void Guard Warsuits) (2AP)
[ ] 1 Forge AP on stockpiling wargear
[ ] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP Each, 12 Max) (3AP plus a Forge AP)
[ ] Hall of Stewardship (2 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2 turns) (2AP)
[ ] Shrine of Khaine (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns) (3AP)
[ ] Continue ship repair (1 point) [Strongly recommended] (1AP)
[ ] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
[ ] Armor Foundry (Void Guard Warsuits) (2AP)
[ ] 1 Forge AP on stockpiling wargear
That'd work. Maybe drop the Foundry and the Hall of Stewardship to finish the Primary Power Distribution Control repair if you want to get our engines fixed ASAP just in case. Maybe use the second Forge AP finishing the Shrine, which is "inefficient" but gets us the Shrine much faster.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I am of the opinion now that we need a shrine of khaine. Lol.
- Location
- madison
ok i'm going to make a breakdown of the weaknesses here, and I relly do recommend taking as many as we can. Keep in mind, our present survival doctrine is "eat the onion" so anything with a shield is going to be decently armored and probably have either a grave shield, a holofiled or both, so we can get away with a surprising amount of weaknesses since its not going to be the only line of defense.
I am going to say this is a bad one to take, cost is everything, the more something costs, the less of it we have. Do not think of higher per unit price as "we are rich we can afford it." think of it as "our large budget will now get us fewer of these."
this is practically free, and I only say practically because it means we obsolete our armor a bit sooner, but to be honest everything we've been making so far is destined for either a MKII or being written off as a bad idea actually. I really do recommend we take this.
I don't know how many slots this would add, and I don't know what its starting at. Though I will say if we intend to slap this thing on everything we can, making it harder to fit onto things seems like a bad idea.
This just makes the shield worse at its job. The advantages to mitigating this exist sure, but a shield built to come up rapidly would need more than one advantage to fully offset this I think. So I would not recommend taking this, unless someone has a very specific build in mind.
realistically, this would just make the shields a bit less useful in melee. We're going to be putting this on power armor and vehicles, that we have all but made policy to give grave shields to as well. So slow physicals projectiles will be repulsed by gravity, and a slow sword strike is easier to dodge. So its not quite free, but a minor vulnerability in melee is a pretty low cost. I think we should absolutely take this one.
We might be able to get away with this. Like I said earlier, our plan is "eat the onion" so we have a grav shield above the refractor and armor beneath it. So taking a bit of bleed through damage could be something we can just deal with. So i'd be put this on a hard maybe.
I am going to say this is a bad one to take, cost is everything, the more something costs, the less of it we have. Do not think of higher per unit price as "we are rich we can afford it." think of it as "our large budget will now get us fewer of these."
this is practically free, and I only say practically because it means we obsolete our armor a bit sooner, but to be honest everything we've been making so far is destined for either a MKII or being written off as a bad idea actually. I really do recommend we take this.
I don't know how many slots this would add, and I don't know what its starting at. Though I will say if we intend to slap this thing on everything we can, making it harder to fit onto things seems like a bad idea.
This just makes the shield worse at its job. The advantages to mitigating this exist sure, but a shield built to come up rapidly would need more than one advantage to fully offset this I think. So I would not recommend taking this, unless someone has a very specific build in mind.
realistically, this would just make the shields a bit less useful in melee. We're going to be putting this on power armor and vehicles, that we have all but made policy to give grave shields to as well. So slow physicals projectiles will be repulsed by gravity, and a slow sword strike is easier to dodge. So its not quite free, but a minor vulnerability in melee is a pretty low cost. I think we should absolutely take this one.
We might be able to get away with this. Like I said earlier, our plan is "eat the onion" so we have a grav shield above the refractor and armor beneath it. So taking a bit of bleed through damage could be something we can just deal with. So i'd be put this on a hard maybe.
All I'm seeing is Biel-tan getting BTFO'D
We've shown our worth, spat and shat on their prescious paths by making the greatest discovery since the Fall rivaled only by the Soulstones. They can't take this from us. We're invincible and all they can do is seethe in a corner or else they get ganked. And this knowledge got me kicking me feet and giggling
Ironically enough we'd probably face more trouble from Orks, as this is at least a century or a few before Emps starts the Unification Wars, meaning we won't even be facing Human Cultists, just daemons, with Bel'akor being the worst case scenario.
Gotta love 30K and Chaos not having a "Drop whole ass war bands of Chaos Space Marines EXACTLY HERE" button.
We've shown our worth, spat and shat on their prescious paths by making the greatest discovery since the Fall rivaled only by the Soulstones. They can't take this from us. We're invincible and all they can do is seethe in a corner or else they get ganked. And this knowledge got me kicking me feet and giggling
Ironically enough we'd probably face more trouble from Orks, as this is at least a century or a few before Emps starts the Unification Wars, meaning we won't even be facing Human Cultists, just daemons, with Bel'akor being the worst case scenario.
Gotta love 30K and Chaos not having a "Drop whole ass war bands of Chaos Space Marines EXACTLY HERE" button.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
[ ] Draft: The Aeldmoot
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Harlequins (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Ulthwe (2 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Saim-Hann (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Iyanden (4 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Lesser Craftworlds (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Exodites (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (4 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Shrine of Khane (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue Ship Repair (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Refit Ships (1 AP)
--[ ] 3x Damaged Assault Ketches to War Ketches
-[ ][SEER] Scry the Present (1 AP)
--[ ] "Where are the Orks that our Pirate-Hunters seek"
--[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[ ] Flaw: Poor Refraction
--[ ] Flaw: Slow On Attack
--[ ] Flaw: Low Threshold
--[ ] Advantage: Low Cost
--[ ] Advantage: Fast Recycle
--[ ] Advantage: Pressure Resistance
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization (2 AP Inital)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Recall for Repairs
--[ ] 12 Damaged Lance Cutters, 9 Damaged Lance Sloops, 10 Damaged Assault Ketches, 2 Damaged Caravels
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Send Reinforcements
--[ ] 20 War Ketches, The 3rd Heavy Fleet (ALLIED), 1st and 2nd Battle Hosts (ALLIED)
-[ ][WARRIOR][EVACUATION] Assign additional Escort Ships
--[ ] 1x Battle Caravel, 2x War Ketches, 1x Assault Ketch, 1x Nettle Destroyer each, when we run out of Nettles, send another War Ketch instead
OKAY, it's done.
Case by case here.
A) All In on the Aeldmoot. With all 10 SAP, we can inform every major party, and also spare some effort to send word to the Exodites/Lessers. I think that'll synergize with the Harlequins to maximize our spread, and at this point, everyone who isn't completely ignorant is going to know this is happening. Which is good, because everyone in the Diaspora needs to know this. It's our best tool to take the Biel-Tan attack off the table as well.
B) Not quite All In on the Engine Repairs, but it is angled to take us a maximum of 2 turns to get them fully online. I've also taken @Mechanis most recent hint about "Of course you're having military problems when you don't even have the T1 Barracks" to heart by making damn sure we have the Shrine of Khaine online--we can't afford to be utterly incapable of defending ourselves for much longer. The combination of this and the math needed to maximize our chances of 2 turning our Engine Repairs though ensures that we can't afford to anything more after we include filling our obligations, though I think we've won at least a little wiggle room under the circumstances with Quilan under the circumstances, and that's not an Oathbound Obligation and we've already finished the first wave, I think it'll keep for one turn at least, especially since we spent extra so the refits would absolutely beat the snot out of most things in space, with the 1 AP left I got a few more damaged Ketches into War Ketches because those are straight up probably some of the best ships active in the galaxy at the moment, and if even the Nettles were kicking insane amounts of ass, these are going to hit the Orks like a Wrecking ball
C) Looked at the numbers and figured that I wanted to at least double tap the Slaanesh project, so the Bird gets both barrels this turn with three hits on that project. It's explicitly the most fragile topic after all. The remaining action is a present scrying (Which should be safe given how the Eye is blind to the present), to hopefully help the Pirate Hunters finish their job and come home this turn.
D) Seeker focuses on the Conversion Fields, what we want is High Reliability, High Refresh Rate. Slow on Attack can be accepted due to the fact that most of the things we'll be putting Conversion Fields on should be pretty tough anyway, and Low Threshold isn't a big deal when we went with Maximum Regeneration as our primary focus, and then are going both Rugged (To ensure that even a complete overload is vastly unlikely to shut the field down), and Fast Recycle (Meaning that it takes a very short period of time to fully recycle)EDIT: Good argument that if we're making a Conversion Field it'll likely be integrated, so this is almost a gimmie, so instead I'm taking that, so that it can take lots of hits and refresh in seconds, turning anyone using one of our Conversion Fields into a fucking absolutely annoying brick wall. EDIT 2: Given the reasonable arguments from @Candesce that Conversion Fields should be angled to be best against melee attacks, I've altered the other flaw to be Poor Refraction instead--we have other options for anti-energy weapons, but nothing for close combat. EDIT 3: And there goes Rugged for Pressure Resistance, but at least this becomes an absolute beast mode defense mechanism that lasts until the RNG isn't in your favor.FINAL EDIT: A quorum was taken of the major voters to decide what we actually wanted from our Conversion Fields, and we settled on "Supplement to Holofields to be strong where they're ineffective." So we went with a cheap, high cycle rate that's good against blasts at the cost of it being relatively weak per cycle, weak against slow moving attacks, and not the best at blocking energy weapons. All of these problems are mitigated due to them being intended to be paired with Holofield equipped units, who rarely take direct hits and are rarely moving slow enough that a slow moving attack would land even if you could pin down their exact position.
E) Warrior cycles the Meros Damaged folks out for a pile of War Ketches (Which, as has been mentioned, are probably some of the scariest fucking ships in Space right now), and further deploys the 3rd Heavy Fleet from our allies and two Battle Hosts to stiffen our defenses against any lucky breakthroughs. This should give the Ork Warlord pause--and he's already been stated as being smart enough to probe his foes and get information first, I intend to use that against him by making him have to throw out his previous assumptions by way of a massive shift in power, and hopefully use that to bluff him into getting Meros the last few years it needs to get its engines online and get the fuck out of dodge. Beyond that, most of our AP is spent maxing our of Evacuation Fleet commitment, since we can afford it. @Mechanis, just to confirm, if we're not deploying Allied Assets, they're considered to be Craftworld Defense, right?
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Harlequins (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Ulthwe (2 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Saim-Hann (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Iyanden (4 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Lesser Craftworlds (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Exodites (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (4 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Shrine of Khane (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue Ship Repair (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Refit Ships (1 AP)
--[ ] 3x Damaged Assault Ketches to War Ketches
-[ ][SEER] Scry the Present (1 AP)
--[ ] "Where are the Orks that our Pirate-Hunters seek"
--[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[ ] Flaw: Poor Refraction
--[ ] Flaw: Slow On Attack
--[ ] Flaw: Low Threshold
--[ ] Advantage: Low Cost
--[ ] Advantage: Fast Recycle
--[ ] Advantage: Pressure Resistance
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization (2 AP Inital)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Recall for Repairs
--[ ] 12 Damaged Lance Cutters, 9 Damaged Lance Sloops, 10 Damaged Assault Ketches, 2 Damaged Caravels
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Send Reinforcements
--[ ] 20 War Ketches, The 3rd Heavy Fleet (ALLIED), 1st and 2nd Battle Hosts (ALLIED)
-[ ][WARRIOR][EVACUATION] Assign additional Escort Ships
--[ ] 1x Battle Caravel, 2x War Ketches, 1x Assault Ketch, 1x Nettle Destroyer each, when we run out of Nettles, send another War Ketch instead
OKAY, it's done.
Case by case here.
A) All In on the Aeldmoot. With all 10 SAP, we can inform every major party, and also spare some effort to send word to the Exodites/Lessers. I think that'll synergize with the Harlequins to maximize our spread, and at this point, everyone who isn't completely ignorant is going to know this is happening. Which is good, because everyone in the Diaspora needs to know this. It's our best tool to take the Biel-Tan attack off the table as well.
B) Not quite All In on the Engine Repairs, but it is angled to take us a maximum of 2 turns to get them fully online. I've also taken @Mechanis most recent hint about "Of course you're having military problems when you don't even have the T1 Barracks" to heart by making damn sure we have the Shrine of Khaine online--we can't afford to be utterly incapable of defending ourselves for much longer. The combination of this and the math needed to maximize our chances of 2 turning our Engine Repairs though ensures that we can't afford to anything more after we include filling our obligations, though I think we've won at least a little wiggle room under the circumstances with Quilan under the circumstances, and that's not an Oathbound Obligation and we've already finished the first wave, I think it'll keep for one turn at least, especially since we spent extra so the refits would absolutely beat the snot out of most things in space, with the 1 AP left I got a few more damaged Ketches into War Ketches because those are straight up probably some of the best ships active in the galaxy at the moment, and if even the Nettles were kicking insane amounts of ass, these are going to hit the Orks like a Wrecking ball
C) Looked at the numbers and figured that I wanted to at least double tap the Slaanesh project, so the Bird gets both barrels this turn with three hits on that project. It's explicitly the most fragile topic after all. The remaining action is a present scrying (Which should be safe given how the Eye is blind to the present), to hopefully help the Pirate Hunters finish their job and come home this turn.
E) Warrior cycles the Meros Damaged folks out for a pile of War Ketches (Which, as has been mentioned, are probably some of the scariest fucking ships in Space right now), and further deploys the 3rd Heavy Fleet from our allies and two Battle Hosts to stiffen our defenses against any lucky breakthroughs. This should give the Ork Warlord pause--and he's already been stated as being smart enough to probe his foes and get information first, I intend to use that against him by making him have to throw out his previous assumptions by way of a massive shift in power, and hopefully use that to bluff him into getting Meros the last few years it needs to get its engines online and get the fuck out of dodge. Beyond that, most of our AP is spent maxing our of Evacuation Fleet commitment, since we can afford it. @Mechanis, just to confirm, if we're not deploying Allied Assets, they're considered to be Craftworld Defense, right?
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IMO, Fuck the engines, we need to unfuck our Bonesinger action economy more. We have a Massive military force sitting on us to keep us from having to run from orks, We are about to call the aeldmoot, and hopefully become politically untouchable that we, We need to unfuck our Economy sharpish, and the use of the engines is running but we are in the safest spot we will be in for a few turns.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Hmm. Well then, that being the case, 3 major craft worlds, the harlequinns, and one each of craft world and exodites works too.
Though I again say we should make a solid ap donation to repairing Arach-Quinns shipyards so they talk us up to any minor craft worlds attending or that contact them in the lead up too it. Even if this does neuter biel-tan as a threat to us, we need more craft worlds lending their fleet to the removal of ork kind from our area.
Hmmm... i am 100% reading too much into this, but Mechanis has consistently written Beil-Tan (Funnily enough a Beil is a small, one handed Axe in German) instead of Biel-Tan in nearly every Post. We are waiting for the wrong Craftworld to attack us. Maybe one of the smaller Craftworlds has an Axe to grind with us?
@Mechanis could you give an Example for a Production Line? Does One of them produce a Certain amount of EP of one Type of Armor/Weapon/Vehicle? I am pretty sure the Thread is reluctant to invest, if we don't know what we could get. Give us some
If you want to get to a minimum of two turns, strip out the two Minor Repairs AP and put them on Primary Power Distribution Control. We need another turn after finishing it to train operators.
That said, I'm not going to be voting for your conversion field merits and flaws - while Slow on Attack is a cute reference, it's also a weakness to some of the exact weapons I most want conversion fields to apply to, and low threshold/fast recycle is iffy since Regeneration only means our conversion fields usually don't blow up. Cycle them quickly and they're going to blow sooner or later anyway.
Problem: it's a moving target. Foundries will produce more as our overall level of industry rises.
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