Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
And that is why it's a draft! I've been busy working on this for the past half hour or so, let me make adjustments.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
And that is why it's a draft! I've been busy working on this for the past half hour or so, let me make adjustments.
Well shit, definitely gonna to want to change the tank crew from carbines to pistols then at some point.
With the QM clarification it looks like the chassis is actually 180EP. That designs just 3EP shy of being 1/4 of a Star Anvil (not that it matters lol).
Yeah, with that clarification going for a 1/5 SH design requires way to many compromises that I'd rather not take compared to what a ~1/4 offers.
dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
- Location
- Behind you
This is Emphatically incorrect.
I would honestly advise taking the Refraction in exchange for Pressure resistance because of this. Grav shields and armor can deal with the bleed through, or grav shields can just make it so we don't have to deal with the bleedthrough.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Alright! Alright, so be it then. We don't need Rugged as much in this circumstance anyway.
Mechanis
Confirmed Techpriest
- Location
- Deep Net
To that last question: yes, anything you have that isn't off Doing Things™ is just hanging out at the Craftworld and maybe occasionally running short below-abstraction errands like courier duty. So yes, if you got attacked all that would be available for throwing at whatever is attacking you immediately.
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dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
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- Behind you
I would advise we keep rugged though, because that+Fast Cycle is VERY GOOD. It means that the shields will almost always come back up, and will do so really quickly, which is important. Maximum Uptime.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
So where am I supposed to find a third Flaw?
dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
- Location
- Behind you
Not a Problem. Well, actually a Problem, but a math Problem. A moving, changing Number in a Formula is a Variable. Nifty little thing that is.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
I think high power draw is probably the worst thing if we want this to have any infantry use. The dreams of trying to write off the VGA are questionable, and we don't even know if it's going to be better than Holo-Fields for their use. Unless we pretend our military isn't fucked and needs immediately salvaging the VG is one of the first factories we're liable to build.
Ithilmar... Ithilmar may need to get completely replaced with a variant that replaces the 14 cost Grav Shield with a cheaper Conversion field but that's realistically going to be 6-12 people per 60+ person detachment. There's no way we can afford a high quality general purpose elite suit outside of command squads and still scale up our military.
Having a cheap easy wargear to throw onto the forces after the fact lets us upgrade NCOs, elites, and VIPs without wrenching and shuddering our already abysmal wartime production or being forced to standardize yet another expense as 'the cost of doing business' and neutering any actual expansion of the military into a meaningful force.
I don't know where you think the policy 'every melee infantry is going to have a 14 EP Grav shield' is coming from- and I do agree it's probably one of the better flaws your premise seems incredibly optimistic.
To some extent, especially for vehicles this is valid- but this also seems to be conspicuously ignoring that the majority of weaponry suited to bypassing holo-fields are kinetic or explosive (and that's almost certainly still mitigated- especially with the blast shield advantage). Lasers and any precision/hard hitting energy weapon is going to be shut down on the holo-fields we've actually standardized on. We want to avoid plasma fire, advanced lasers, and melta weaponry anyways so it's actually pretty well suited for us.
Keep in mind infantry are going to be moving and in cover quite often. For an infantry man a shield that only deflects a 3 round burst is perfectly viable. Once you get into vehicles and ships that might be seeing more of a slugging match then we're looking at a major issue.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I already used that, Bleedthrough, High Power Draw for Fast Recycle and Pressure Resistance, where am I supposed to get a third Flaw for Rugged?
dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
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- Behind you
Poor Refraction, High Power draw, and Slow On attack. Poor Refraction and Slow on Attack are different, and having both will be a bit weird, but the shields still mostly function against both things.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Slow on Attack completely nullifies the benefit of making this good against melee weapons though, doesn't it?
EDIT: The point is. Who do we want Conversion Fields to be good for?
The standard Poor Bloody Infantry? We want Low Cost for Low Threshold, Slow on Attack for Rugged, and Poor Refraction for Fast Recycle. We want a Melee Specialist? We want Pressure Resistance and Rugged for High Power Draw and Poor Refraction.
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If am fully Honest, I think we are getting lost in the sauce on conversion fields, No advantages, no disadvantages should give us a Perfectly fine piece of gear without these weird weaknesses. If we NEED pressure resitance, I would say Slow on attack, but We really don't Need it to be fast recycle as well, As its starting to make it a worse general product, It should be more then fine as a baseline piece of kit, Instead of introducing bleedthrough, Or high power draw or what have you.
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dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
- Location
- Behind you
That's not what Pressure Resistance is about. Pressure resistance does Jack Shit against melee weapons, mostly, I think. Pressure resist is so our shields can shrug off an artillery shell landing nearby. Pressure resist is to increase the viability against the things Grav Shields can't block.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Can we get this switched to Arach-Quinn Shipyard repair? The more they talk us up as allies at the summit the more likely it is for other craftworlds and exodites to be interested in joining up to our group of allied craftworlds after it. Best raise relations while we can.
I think we should probably design a second version of these in the long run for our nimble escorts with low cost advantage and slow on attack flaw. For now what you have is fine for a new infantry model armor.
so is the plan to get target the Tzeentch curse first since it is weaker and easier to deal with compared to facing down the other 2 chaos gods since the curse was made by Fateweaver and not his god ?
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Honestly, I think it'll keep, we've been holding to our deal aggressively, the last thing they're going to want to do is fuck us over while most of their heavies are still being fixed. War Ketches are just very much "The more of them we have, the happier we'll be" level stuff.
That, and the fact that I don't want to try hitting any of these curses without at least double tapping the project, and the other two are too expensive to do so. The Tzeentch one is likely easiest to Mitigate, so hitting it hard before they harden it against us is likely the way to go.
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- Pronouns
- Reader
We should take at least one, perfectly tolerable flaw for the advantage of low cost, to make it easier to spam these or mass produce them with low foundry investment.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Slow on Attack is fantastic for us. Grav-Shields and Holo-Fields both work in melee. What we need is something incredibly dirt cheap to block an explosion. Anything else is just feature creep from what need from this thing compared to our other shields.
This cripples our flexibility to build squads using the armor we have and upgrading them once we've reached some point of military stability. No upgrading NCOs in VGA squads without an entirely new suit. Or Upgrading exotic weapons teams with a wargear conversion field once we've got a large military and can start protecting our investments better, etc. I know it seems like it will be a lot more efficient in the long run, but we can't keep our eyes wholly on the long run when our present is a complete disaster and we need to fix it ASAP. Once the damage control is done and we have a military that isn't a joke, *then* we can eat whatever inefficiency for a limited roll out for all of the forces we needed to reach that point.
(Bombs Begone! Proposal )
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[ ] Flaw: Slow on Attack
--[ ] Flaw: Poor Refraction
--[ ] Flaw: Low Threshold
--[ ] Advantage: Low Cost
--[ ] Advantage: Fast Recycle
--[ ] Advantage: Pressure Resistance
Literally just Alectai's plan but the idea is to make our conversion fields super specialized for the one thing Grav/Holo-Fields can't address. AoEs/Explosions. It'll be cheap and it will be something we can add to our troops without disgusting penalties later on so we can focus on the bare essentials right now.
Edit: removed the plan to drive home I'm just articulating what my proposed conversion fields would look like rather than dividing a vote
Where do people see us *actually* using this on an integrated PA? Because so far it's just a cheaper Ithilmar as far as I'm aware and half the people are super hyped about using Grav Shields+Conversion Fields on infantry when that's not going to be a real common occurrence. We don't know if it's going to be cheaper than Holo-Fields, it flat out is worse at countering high powered weaponry like say a plasma gun from hurting our relatively heavy infantry, and we don't have the spare EP to afford to properly outfit more than the bare minimum of our troops in an elite armor system.
This cripples our flexibility to build squads using the armor we have and upgrading them once we've reached some point of military stability. No upgrading NCOs in VGA squads without an entirely new suit. Or Upgrading exotic weapons teams with a wargear conversion field once we've got a large military and can start protecting our investments better, etc. I know it seems like it will be a lot more efficient in the long run, but we can't keep our eyes wholly on the long run when our present is a complete disaster and we need to fix it ASAP. Once the damage control is done and we have a military that isn't a joke, *then* we can eat whatever inefficiency for a limited roll out for all of the forces we needed to reach that point.
(Bombs Begone! Proposal )
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[ ] Flaw: Slow on Attack
--[ ] Flaw: Poor Refraction
--[ ] Flaw: Low Threshold
--[ ] Advantage: Low Cost
--[ ] Advantage: Fast Recycle
--[ ] Advantage: Pressure Resistance
Literally just Alectai's plan but the idea is to make our conversion fields super specialized for the one thing Grav/Holo-Fields can't address. AoEs/Explosions. It'll be cheap and it will be something we can add to our troops without disgusting penalties later on so we can focus on the bare essentials right now.
Edit: removed the plan to drive home I'm just articulating what my proposed conversion fields would look like rather than dividing a vote
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Karugus, I'm trying to work with six or seven people right now and literally just told everyone "Hold up, what do we need for this", can you just... Work with me to adjust it accordingly instead of present a competing Plan? You know I'm good for it! It's explicitly listed as a draft!
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I'd say resistance to the attacks that are troublesome for holo-fields to defend against - blasts, basically.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Fair, I'm more than willing to delete things and discuss. I just saw one argument segue into how high power draw was great and then a plan and wanted to present what I was suggesting as a coherent alternative rather than just an argument. I have no interest in splitting the vote.
My argument is that a blast is a) the best counter to our shields, b) relatively infrequent so a low threshold high recharge is fine, and c) a great way of taking out lots of infantry period, we're clearly invested in having high quality infantry. The goal should be Conversion Fields as cheap and affordable patch to the preexisting gaps in our coverage rather than some wholly new and independent defense that needs to cover a lot of angles on its own. In that context, an inability to cheaply retrofit our forces with it as needed is unacceptable.
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[ ] Draft: Summon The Elf-lector Counts
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Harlequins (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Ulthwe (2 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Saim-Hann (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Iyanden (4 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Lesser Craftworlds (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Exodites (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Hall of Stewardship (2 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2 turns) (2AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Shrine of Khane (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue Ship Repair (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Refit Ships (1 AP)
--[ ] 3x Damaged Assault Ketches to War Ketches
-[ ][BONESINGER] Armour Foundry (Void Guard Armour) (2 points each)
-[ ][SEER] Scry the Present (1 AP)
--[ ] "Where are the Orks that our Pirate-Hunters seek"
--[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[] Slow to Attack
--[] Pressure reduction
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization (2 AP Inital)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Recall for Repairs
--[ ] 12 Damaged Lance Cutters, 9 Damaged Lance Sloops, 10 Damaged Assault Ketches, 2 Damaged Caravels
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Send Reinforcements
--[ ] 20 War Ketches, The 3rd Heavy Fleet (ALLIED), 1st and 2nd Battle Hosts (ALLIED)
-[ ][WARRIOR][EVACUATION] Assign additional Escort Ships (-4 AP)
--[ ] 1x Battle Caravel, 2x War Ketches, 1x Assault Ketch, 1x Nettle Destroyer each, when we run out of Nettles, send another War Ketch instead
Ok, This is Alectais plan, But It makes a couple changes, First, It scraps the converstion field that alectai cook up with its list of Flaws and pro's, I feel like the stack of advantages and disadvantages is starting to get lost in the sauce, and watering down how good conversion field are in the first place. Instead, I would rather Take a Minor weakness in Melee, and Pick up blast resistance to mitigate the biggest weakness our speed has, Brigadine, Vehicle, Ilthimar, Void guard, Give it to everything to protect from Blasts, which speed and holo fields don't
Second, It cuts the Power distribution repair. We are in the best spot we can be, Getting the engines online isn't going to make or break the next two turns, because AFTER the elf-moot, the Biel-tan attack chance is Many times less likely, and unless the orks show Up, Next turn, In such force that our reinforcements from our friends can't save us, The engines aren't going to do anything. Instead, I would rather Unfuck our Action economy, Replacing the 4 AP power distribution With 2 AP Void guard foundry To try and unfuck our Armour situation and see how many Suits per turn we get from a Foundry to start estimating the EP buy back from foundry's, AND gets us started with the Halls of stewardship, To help unfuck our economy.
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Harlequins (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Ulthwe (2 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Saim-Hann (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] Iyanden (4 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Lesser Craftworlds (1 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD][AELDMOOT] The Exodites (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Hall of Stewardship (2 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2 turns) (2AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Repairing the Plasma System (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Shrine of Khane (3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue Ship Repair (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Refit Ships (1 AP)
--[ ] 3x Damaged Assault Ketches to War Ketches
-[ ][BONESINGER] Armour Foundry (Void Guard Armour) (2 points each)
-[ ][SEER] Scry the Present (1 AP)
--[ ] "Where are the Orks that our Pirate-Hunters seek"
--[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (2 AP/turn, 1 turn)
--[] Slow to Attack
--[] Pressure reduction
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization (2 AP Inital)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Recall for Repairs
--[ ] 12 Damaged Lance Cutters, 9 Damaged Lance Sloops, 10 Damaged Assault Ketches, 2 Damaged Caravels
-[ ][WARRIOR][MEROS] Send Reinforcements
--[ ] 20 War Ketches, The 3rd Heavy Fleet (ALLIED), 1st and 2nd Battle Hosts (ALLIED)
-[ ][WARRIOR][EVACUATION] Assign additional Escort Ships (-4 AP)
--[ ] 1x Battle Caravel, 2x War Ketches, 1x Assault Ketch, 1x Nettle Destroyer each, when we run out of Nettles, send another War Ketch instead
Ok, This is Alectais plan, But It makes a couple changes, First, It scraps the converstion field that alectai cook up with its list of Flaws and pro's, I feel like the stack of advantages and disadvantages is starting to get lost in the sauce, and watering down how good conversion field are in the first place. Instead, I would rather Take a Minor weakness in Melee, and Pick up blast resistance to mitigate the biggest weakness our speed has, Brigadine, Vehicle, Ilthimar, Void guard, Give it to everything to protect from Blasts, which speed and holo fields don't
Second, It cuts the Power distribution repair. We are in the best spot we can be, Getting the engines online isn't going to make or break the next two turns, because AFTER the elf-moot, the Biel-tan attack chance is Many times less likely, and unless the orks show Up, Next turn, In such force that our reinforcements from our friends can't save us, The engines aren't going to do anything. Instead, I would rather Unfuck our Action economy, Replacing the 4 AP power distribution With 2 AP Void guard foundry To try and unfuck our Armour situation and see how many Suits per turn we get from a Foundry to start estimating the EP buy back from foundry's, AND gets us started with the Halls of stewardship, To help unfuck our economy.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
So, cards on the table.
This is our Third Field type, we need to decide where it's used. Are we going to use this standalone? Are we going to use this to supplement Holofield equipped troops so we can get nigh-invincibility with relatively affordable expense?
That's the question we need to ask here. Low Threshold for instance is less of a big deal if pinpointing someone's exact position is that much harder, and Slow to Attack is similarly mitigated just by pairing it with a Holofield. If it's standalone though, the question is "Who gets it? Melee troops? Assault Forces who don't benefit from Holofields quite as much?"
There's a lot of questions we need to answer about Intended Use Case before we finalize our Conversion Field design, so would everyone with an opinion Please state where they would intend Conversion Fields to fit in with our doctrine--no benefits, just tell me Where Conversion Fields Fit in our toolkit, once we have a consensus on that, then we can pick out our flaws/bonuses to fit.
This is our Third Field type, we need to decide where it's used. Are we going to use this standalone? Are we going to use this to supplement Holofield equipped troops so we can get nigh-invincibility with relatively affordable expense?
That's the question we need to ask here. Low Threshold for instance is less of a big deal if pinpointing someone's exact position is that much harder, and Slow to Attack is similarly mitigated just by pairing it with a Holofield. If it's standalone though, the question is "Who gets it? Melee troops? Assault Forces who don't benefit from Holofields quite as much?"
There's a lot of questions we need to answer about Intended Use Case before we finalize our Conversion Field design, so would everyone with an opinion Please state where they would intend Conversion Fields to fit in with our doctrine--no benefits, just tell me Where Conversion Fields Fit in our toolkit, once we have a consensus on that, then we can pick out our flaws/bonuses to fit.