A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[BigFungus26]

Yeah I'm all for setting up foundries for mirages and VGA next turn, we can always build multiple of them if we need to, and if we design alternatives we can always just retool the foundry to make the improved designs, there's no reason not to take it seeing as the VGA is just 1 BAP and Zahr-Tann gave us our 2 loaned points back

 

[Copperscale]

Yeah I'm all for setting up foundries for mirages and VGA next turn, we can always build multiple of them if we need to, and if we design alternatives we can always just retool the foundry to make the improved designs, there's no reason not to take it seeing as the VGA is just 1 BAP and Zahr-Tann gave us our 2 loaned points back

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2 BAP, actually, but that's just nitpicking.

@Mechanis Will we get an option to produce something akin to the Arsenal of Venice?

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Vaul's Forge: Am i a joke to you?

Mechanis also said that we will be able to create a lesser copy of the forge when I asked if the forge of Vaul could make another forge of Vaul.

 

[frostgiant]

Yeah I'm all for setting up foundries for mirages and VGA next turn, we can always build multiple of them if we need to, and if we design alternatives we can always just retool the foundry to make the improved designs, there's no reason not to take it seeing as the VGA is just 1 BAP and Zahr-Tann gave us our 2 loaned points back

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If not even VGA, We need Ilthimar, The Brightsword unit we voted in Has the squad leader in ilthimar, Which means for every 66 Points (6x11 guys) we spend on Void guard armour, we need to spend 23 (23x1 guy) on Ilthimar Not including the Forgefire unit, Or any future heavy units we deploy with Ilthimar and heavy weapons.

Right now IMO we need to set up VGA and Ilthimar Lines first and second, Mirage Lines 3rd. Everything else can wait or be done via EP.

 

[BigFungus26]

Mechanis also said that we will be able to create a lesser copy of the forge when I asked if the forge of Vaul could make another forge of Vaul.

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Wonder what the name for them would be? Shrine of Vaul? Smithy? Workshop of Vaul perhaps?

 

[10ebbor10]

Wonder what the name for them would be? Shrine of Vaul? Smithy? Workshop of Vaul perhaps?

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Obviously it's a Forge of the Forge of Vaul.

They're actually just as good as the original, they just make less because writing the name down takes forever.

 

[Copperscale]

Obviously it's a Forge of the Forge of Vaul.

They're actually just as good as the original, they just make less because writing the name down takes forever.

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No, replicating it exactly is beyond the ability of the modern Aeldari. That said, when you have time for more involved projects, you will be able to study the thing and potentially develop a lesser but still potent device that you can build more of.

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This is Mechanis' reply.

Wonder what the name for them would be? Shrine of Vaul? Smithy? Workshop of Vaul perhaps?

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Atelier Shrine?

 

[Skjadir]

Will go to sleep for now.
But I think I will at least try to get started on a few designs we can use as a foundation for a total redesign of our army. And as a result of that which techs we really want to pick up before we start the redesign.

 

[Alratan]

Oh, so we can convert Production lines to making something else, Is that cheaper then just making a new line?
Either way, This IMO Means their is absolutely no excuse to not start making Production lines to start pumping out Ilthimar, Mirage and Void guard, Maybe even Some Guns like sweeper cannons and Needlers after that, because we can change the lines to Our upgraded version Later when we actually get around to it.

Their is No reason Not to set up production lines for void guard and Mirage now IMO.

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There is. We've better things to do with the BAP and we don't any more infantry or infantry transport that urgently now we have our allied army. We just can't build or deploy enough to make a meaningful difference on top of what we already have. Infantry equipment is so far down the list that it shouldn't even be on it.

What we can use more of is super-heavies.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Alright fine, not upgrading the seer circle then
-Continue Ship Repairs 1 AP
-Replacing Power distribution 4 AP
-Shrine to Khane 3 AP
-Assist Arach-Qin with rebuilding their Shipyard (1 point each, max 6) 3 AP
-Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)

Whilst not specifically a part of your terms with the smaller Craftworld, sending a party—or several—to assist them in rebuilding their yard capacity would likely generate no small amount of gratitude, for the despoilment of the Ork is something you have some amount of experience with.
[ ] Assist Arach-Qin with rebuilding their Shipyard (1 point each, max 6)
Send parties to assist Arach-Qin with the monumental task of rebuilding its destroyed shipyards.

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[ ] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
While Screamer grenades are of course quite effective at disrupting most living targets, they are firstly not designed for deployment by hand and secondly do not actually inflict much damage to foes. Developing some additional grenade types—including those meant for use by individual warriors by hand rather than with a grenade launcher—would extend the options of your warhosts.
Develop basic Krack, Frag, and smoke grenades for both your existing grenade launchers and deployment by hand. Also adapts Screamer grenades to a hand-throwable version.

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So, here is my idea.

¹ get the primary power distribution fixed so we can start training people for it turn 5.

² Build a shrine of Khane to increase our Warrior points.

³ Continue Repairing ships and commit 3 AP to repairing their shipyard for better relations and a faster recovery on their part.

⁴ develop basic granades turn 4, so we can build a foundry producing them in bulk turn 5.

 

[10ebbor10]

Honestly, I feel people are a bit obsessed with superheavies.

1) Our current superheavy is not at all suited for defensive conflicts, due to the nature of the battlefield
2) With forces as they are, there's better force enhancements that can be done than focusing on one niche battlefield space.

² Build a shrine of Khane to increase our Warrior points.

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Why?

Don't we usually have Warrior points in surplus?

 

[Candesce]

Then get Hall of Stewardship, one Enhance Industry, and a Shrine of Khaine.

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As much as I like the thematics of building a Shrine of Khaine immediately after this turn, it's not actually going to do anything useful for a while.

We're currently limited on raising detachments by EP production, not by Warrior action pools. The way to fix that is to increase our EP production, which can be done through Enhance Industry and through building wargear factories.

Honestly, I feel people are a bit obsessed with superheavies.

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Ah, but they are expensive.

See how all the Troops choices we created would be much better assigned as Elites. I think there's going to be trouble building a line infantry detachment.

 

[Alratan]

Honestly, I feel people are a bit obsessed with superheavies.

1) Our current superheavy is not at all suited for defensive conflicts, due to the nature of the battlefield
2) With forces as they are, there's better force enhancements that can be done than focusing on one niche battlefield space.

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Craftworlds are the size of small planets. Titans are deployed when they're invaded. Our super heavy can contribute to fighting invaders on one

For example, if the orks land gargants on Meros, we'd really wish we'd have more super/-heavies, as you need super-heavies to fight super-heavies. Similarly if we need to engage enemies in a Webway tunnel too small for void craft but large enough for titans.

The one thing our allies haven't leant us is super-heavies. It's the only category in which our production can make a meaningful difference.

 

[Skjadir]

As much as I like the thematics of building a Shrine of Khaine immediately after this turn, it's not actually going to do anything useful for a while.

We're currently limited on raising detachments by EP production, not by Warrior action pools. The way to fix that is to increase our EP production, which can be done through Enhance Industry and through building wargear factories.

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Enhancing Industry i think the most reliable way to get stuff done.
Mostly because it results in more BAP that can be used for more projects which results in a (way) faster build up of everything else.

Foundries are a bit of a problem because our army is still in massive flux for some time.
Also because they are good bit more limited in what they boost than just having some more BAP.

 

[10ebbor10]

For example, if the orks land gargants on Meros, we'd really miss we'd have more super/-heavies, as you need super-heavies to fight super-heavies.

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If the Orks are at the point where they're landing Gargants on Meros, we'd be long overrun by all the other chaff, elite units, and so on and so on...

I also think you're somewhat overestimating superheavies, tbh.
Our own superheavy would probably be overwhelmed fast by a much cheaper, much smaller quantity of infantry/light mechanized vessels, if it is not provided with sufficient capable support.

 

[Candesce]

Enhancing Industry i think the most reliable way to get stuff done.

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I'm quite sure it's wargear factories. As you say, BAP can be used for just about everything, which means wargear production needs something for its niche, and that's almost certainly return on investment since it's losing everything else.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Honestly, I feel people are a bit obsessed with superheavies.

1) Our current superheavy is not at all suited for defensive conflicts, due to the nature of the battlefield
2) With forces as they are, there's better force enhancements that can be done than focusing on one niche battlefield space.


Why?

Don't we usually have Warrior points in surplus?

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I assumed that would change soon, especially with us using our new frigates for mass webway scouting in all directions, but whatever. I'm fine with an increase bonesinger AP by enhance industry or starting repairing the plasma system instead.

 

[Alratan]

If the Orks are at the point where they're landing Gargants on Meros, we'd be long overrun by all the other chaff, elite units, and so on and so on...

I also think you're somewhat overestimating superheavies, tbh.

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I disagree, as the orks have bullshit like giant telyporters, or they can simply get lucky and get some roks past the defensive cordon.

Gargants are likely to be what they deploy as the tip of the spear to break ground based defences.

Super heavies aren't a 'niche' in Warhammer combat, they one of the fundamental categories you need to have a capability in. It's why Titan Legions are such a big deal.

 

[Copperscale]

Enhancing Industry i think the most reliable way to get stuff done.
Mostly because it results in more BAP that can be used for more projects which results in a (way) faster build up of everything else.

Foundries are a bit of a problem because our army is still in massive flux for some time.
Also because they are good bit more limited in what they boost than just having some more BAP.

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I think we should take at least 1 Foundry so we can figure out how quick they are.

At this point, they are a deliberate blackbox to represent Vau-vaukesh's lack of knowledge in the area.

It's also much cheaper to Open the black box once than to gain 1 BAP (3AP + 2-3 turns).
We can make a Weapon foundry for Starblaster rifles/carbines. Being pre-fall tech, those will never become obsolete, and 2BAP is a small investment.

 

[10ebbor10]

I'm quite sure it's wargear factories. As you say, BAP can be used for just about everything, which means wargear production needs something for its niche, and that's almost certainly return on investment since it's losing everything else.

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I suspect the boon might be here.

More action-efficient than manually creating most wargear in the long term, Production Infrastructure automatically produces a set number of weapons, armor, or vehicles at a set rate, determined by your overall industry.

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As I interpret this, this seems to imply that any future improvement of industry, automatically improves the foundries as well, making them solutions which scale well.

I disagree, as the orks have bullshit like giant telyporters, or they can simply get lucky and get some roks past the defensive cordon.

Gargants are likely to be what they deploy as the tip of the spear to break ground based defences.

Super heavies aren't a 'niche' in Warhammer combat, they one of the fundamental categories you need to have a capability in. It's why Titan Legions are such a big deal.

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Titan legions are a big deal.

They're are also rare.
The idea that every battle is going to involve superheavies as the enemies first trick of choice is silly.

You're defending against the enemies hypothetical top line equipment when we're not even particularly ready to deal with their grunts.

 

[Skjadir]

I'm quite sure it's wargear factories. As you say, BAP can be used for just about everything, which means wargear production needs something for its niche, and that's almost certainly return on investment since it's losing everything else.

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Wargear production is nice because it scales with the overall industry level (BAP) and because we can build a shit ton of them in one turn. We just need to actually know what we want to mass produce (which we don't yet because we don't even have fully unlocked some of the gear for that and we haven't even started on a full redesign of our army).

We are much more limited on the extra industry action to my understanding in that each one takes several turns and we can only do one at a time, which in part makes using the forge action valuable on it.

 

[weeblypanda]

Wonder what the name for them would be? Shrine of Vaul? Smithy? Workshop of Vaul perhaps?

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There need not be a formal structure. Every Foundry, Smithy, and Workshop shall be a shrine! Every Worker song, ring of the Anvil, and engine rumble shall be a hymn! Each engine of war, each tool made, every repair made shall be a monument to VAUL!

 

[Alratan]

Titan legions are a big deal.

They're are also rare.
The idea that every battle is going to involve superheavies as the enemies first trick of choice is silly.

You're defending against the enemies hypothetical top line equipment when we're not even particularly ready to deal with their grunts.

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Thanks to our allies, we are ready to deal with their grunts, their elites; and their regular vehicles.

What the sixty hosts we've been leant can't effectively do is fighting enemy superheavies. It's our one obvious missing capability for our land forces.

And we know the local orks can make gargants, we've surveyed their worlds and learned that. This isn't a hypothetical future threat, it's a current one.

And when assaulting a craftworld, enemies need to bring their A game, and they will, given the shit kicking the orks have had so far at Meros, which will cause them to escalate because that's what they do.

 

[weeblypanda]

And when assaulting a craftworld, enemies need to bring their A game, and they will, given the shit kicking the orks have had so far at Meros, which will cause them to escalate because that's what they do.

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Get ready for them to Rok us...

 

[Vehrec]

Okay so here's an idea: I think we should loan Zahr-Tann our Anvils. We have two superheavy tanks, but lack the heavy armor to support them, and the military experience to employ them properly. We don't even have the guns and armor they require for our doctrine to equip them and issue them to a headquarters unit as a reserve. So, to Honor Zahr-Tann, to show them what we can do, and to get our superheavy killers protected by the best we can get. Manned by the best available troops. And they will fill a hole that Zahr-Tann's own ToE has, for they lack Titans and superheavy tanks of their own. Our own observers and bonesingers can collect information on how the tank works, and iron out the bugs.

And if they want to spend favor to buy one outright, well, the price is there.

 

[Randino Treviani]

I disagree, as the orks have bullshit like giant telyporters, or they can simply get lucky and get some roks past the defensive cordon.

Gargants are likely to be what they deploy as the tip of the spear to break ground based defences.

Super heavies aren't a 'niche' in Warhammer combat, they one of the fundamental categories.

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There is the point to be made that the Waagh leader of our current problem Orks does have a complex teleportation device capable of teleporting fighters in the hundreds or even escort vessels with tactical precision on his flagship, though I think he is more likely to focus on flanking maneuvers with naval elements than delivering troops he may not be able to maintain support of. Regardless, the simpler solution to that is to just assault his primary fortress now that we have the advantage of numbers.

I think we should take at least 1 Foundry so we can figure out how quick they are.

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I think a better solution is to take develop basic grenades turn 4(next turn) and build a foundry for them turn 5. We are guaranteed to need basic grenades no matter how much we advance in terms of tech, so a foundry for them is a sound investment no matter what else we are doing, and thus serves as a perfect testing ground for how much a foundry produces.

and may have additional restrictions to expand their production—typically in the form of reduced output from some of your existing infrastructure as trained personnel must be devoted to serving as cadre for the new facilities.

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We should also keep in mind that you eventually this will cut into our bonesinger AP. Not a problem for some time I imagine, but it doesn't hurt to achieve industry expansions ahead of time.