I don't think we want to use the brigantine at all, to be honest.
Better to just develop light power armor, has better armor due to the boost from being power armor and 3 slots.
Cost can be kept to 3EP if it is mostly intended for vehicle crews

But when they are in an open vehicle like the grav barge it loses shields, I would strongly prefer for the crew to have some survivability.
I think we're letting ourselves develop really skewed senses of survivability if we're worried about the crew of the tankiest Eldar dedicated transport suddenly being exposed if all three of the vehicle's shields suddenly stop working. Asuryani superheavy vehicles only have the one shield in the first place. As do their Titans. Most factions don't have multiple layers of different shields at all.

If you want vehicle pilot power armor down the road that's fine- it's not a bad idea necessarily. But it can't really be used as an excuse to dismiss the wraithweave.
 
But when they are in an open vehicle like the grav barge it loses shields, I would strongly prefer for the crew to have some survivability.

Not to rain on your Parade, but if an Enemy can Shoot us trough the Holo Field and two Grav Shields with the inherent Speed of this Vessel? Our Guys are ducked.

Now developing a cheap powered Light Armor for Vehicel Crews sounds nice. Light for Crews, middle for Troopers, heavy for Elites/Support/Melee.

EDIT: By the Way, just the thought of Sticking our Psychic Casters/Warlocks into Ithilmar Armor... tanky (Post-Fall) Eldar Pyskers are a scary Idea.
 
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Not to rain on your Parade, but if an Enemy can Shoot us trough the Holo Field and two Grav Shields with the inherent Speed of this Vessel? Our Guys are ducked.

Now developing a cheap powered Light Armor for Vehicel Crews sounds nice. Light for Crews, middle for Troopers, heavy for Elites/Support/Melee.

EDIT: By the Way, just the thought of Sticking our Psychic Casters/Warlocks into Ithilmar Armor... tanky (Post-Fall) Eldar Pyskers are a scary Idea.

The holo-field doesn't tank shots, it just makes it (much harder) to actually hit us.
The grav shields have one problem and why I doubled up on them each one can only take so many hits, before they collapse. This isn't like Conversion shields (when we get them, i really want to replace one of the grav-shields with one) where the problem is with the power of the attacks, not the number.

They complement each other well, but I do like some extra insurance that our has some protection in case of a few lucky shot actually hitting in short order and managing to down the shields for a bit.

Also leaves a bit of a bad taste that when the shields are down the crew is theoretically the least protected when transporting troops.

Grav-shields are a technology which turns gravetic manipulation technology to the purpose of defense—against kinetic projectiles (or those of most energy weapons), the shot can simply be 'slapped' aside by a momentary pulse of gravity, while beam type weapons can be turned aside with gravitational lensing. The system is even effective at disrupting grav-weapons, which few other defensive technologies can claim; however, they have three primary flaws: firstly, area-effect weapons can bypass the system simply because they only need to be near a target to inflict damage. Secondly, the system is less effective against guided, actively propelled projectiles such as missiles or torpedos, which can course-correct from deflection. Thirdly, the system can only stop so many attacks within a set period, and therefore massed fire can overwhelm the system. Nonetheless, Grav-shields are a potent defensive technology.
 
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[] Sunrise Sloop
-[] Slots start (System Slots 4, Weapons Batteries 1: Refunded to system slot, Heavy Weapons Batteries 1: convert to 3x Naval Weapons)
-[] Slots post refund/conversion: System Slots 5, Weapons Batteries 3
-[] Plasma-Thruster (2 System Slots)
-[] Holo-Field (1 System Slot)
-[] Grav-Shield (2 System Slots)
-[] Spike Macrocannon x2 (Weapons Batteries 2)
-[] Las-Lance x1 (Weapons Batteries 1)

A good survivable skirmisher we should design a cutter as wel later as we got 100+ of those we can refit as that would probably be a lot faster then building new ships.
 
Now developing a cheap powered Light Armor for Vehicel Crews sounds nice. Light for Crews, middle for Troopers, heavy for Elites/Support/Melee.

Coming back to this.
Light-Medium Power armor for Crew
and Heavy for everyone else.

If we don't stuff grav shields into the heavy power armor their prices goes down pretty hard:

Example:
For one still pretty cheap one
Heavy 2
Powered 1.75
3.75
Slots 8:
AutoTargeters 0.5
Holo-Field 3
Improved Power Assist 2 0.6
Extended Operations Modification 2 0.6
Enhanced Sensors 2 0.4

Total:8.85 EP per ~> 9 EP
Cost 3 EP more than the Void guard armor, but with gives them also a pretty massive amount of extra slots compared to the VGA we have at the moment going from 3 up to 8.
In addition to baseline getting quite good armor.
Price could be pushed down to 6 if we leave out the holo-field and the 1 slot open.

these :
+1 Non-Heavy Weapon+1 Gear
two benefits going by the one heavy power armor we already have.

And in this price change, I think they are still very spamable for our troops at least for the rifle squads.

Overall will be very interesting how armor development will go in the future as we learn from our earlier design mistakes and we also get more options from R&D slowly getting done.
 
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Fair enough, but that is the trade off for getting survivability for when our escorts actually are mission killed. Your design is perfectly reasonable and probably will see less mission kills- but I'm going to guess it's going to see more total loses. And I don't think we *know* how many ships we've lost from prequest combat so I caution against potential survivor's bias.

Edit: Another concern is that Las-Cannon PD costs 12 NEP. Obviously we know the base hull has a price tag and that Aethersails are pricy (we don't know how much), but that design does effectively double the known price tag for the ship.
Wait, I assumed the Reinforced Hull had some kind of EP cost as well. Is that not the case? Either way though, I'm skeptical that Nettle would see more total losses. I figure the increased chance of a Mobility kill would counterbalance being physically tougher, considering being dead in the water nullifies their biggest defense of speed and Holo fields.
But when they are in an open vehicle like the grav barge it loses shields, I would strongly prefer for the crew to have some survivability.
This combines to make it a capable light armor, resistant to most small arms,
It's not like the wraithweave is bad though? Like, this is entirely it's intended purpose, a cheaper but still effective way of armouring crew members who aren't expected to be outside the vehicle.
@Mechanis for comparisons sake would Wraithweave be similar to Imperial carapace armour as far as protection goes?
 
[X] Mirage Assault Transport, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor x4 24 EP
-[X] 4 Light melee weapon 4 EP
-[X] 4 pistol flamers 4 EP

[X] Razorwind Jetbike, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor 6 EP
-[X] 1 Light melee weapon 1 EP
-[X] 1 pistol flamers 1 EP

[X] Bramble-class Escort Cutter
 
Coming back to this.
Light-Medium Power armor for Crew
and Heavy for everyone else.

If you drop the Grav Shield, you could give them a Hard Point for a Heavy Weapon. That way we can exploit the very Reason why they should wear Heavy Power Armor (besides getting more Protection)

I think the Holo Fields are worth it. We can stealth and are harder to hit at the same time. The Grav Shield is very expensive, but we have not seen the Ithilmar in Action yet.
 
[X] Mirage Assault Transport, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor x4 24 EP
-[X] 4 Light melee weapon 4 EP
-[X] 4 pistol flamers 4 EP

[X] Razorwind Jetbike, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor 6 EP
-[X] 1 Light melee weapon 1 EP
-[X] 1 pistol flamers 1 EP

[X] Bramble-class Escort Cutter
 
If you drop the Grav Shield, you could give them a Hard Point for a Heavy Weapon. That way we can exploit the very Reason why they should wear Heavy Power Armor (besides getting more Protection)

I think the Holo Fields are worth it. We can stealth and are harder to hit at the same time. The Grav Shield is very expensive, but we have not seen the Ithilmar in Action yet.

Not really into the weapon hard points.
And yeah Holo-fields are worth it and as we want them on pretty much all troops the discount of 5 EP is pretty big.

My goal for the next baseline armor would be something like this for ranged units:
Heavy 2
Powered 1.75
3.75
Slots 8:
AutoTargeters 0.5
Holo-Field 3
Improved Power Assist 2 0.6
Extended Operations Modification 1 0.3
Enhanced Sensors 3 0.6
Total:8.75 EP per

Power assist to keep the mobility at a high level by Eldar standards.
Full sensor suit +AutoTargeters to up their accuracy and battlefield awareness.
Extended Operations because longer uptime is always nice.

The hard point one would be this?:
Heavy 2
Powered 1.75
3.75
Slots 8:
AutoTargeters 0.5
Holo-Field 3
Heavy Weapon Hardpoint +0.3 EP | 3 Slots | Max 1
Enhanced Sensors 3 0.6
Total:8.15 EP per ~9EP

Problem here is they would likely loss a good bit of mobility ...

A man 12 troop, using their Mirage as a weapons/shield platform and never leaves, might make this really nasty.
That would be 12 heavy weapons, + either 12 heavy weapons or 24 Normal/Rifle Ranged (see the +1 Non-Heavy Weapon they get from heavy power armor baseline).*
Edit: Not fully sure how the slots interact.
We get 12 from hard points, 12 troops and armor lets them move around with heavy weapons, question is now can we add another 12 weapons into the potentially still open +12 Non-Heavy Weapon slots, we get from the heavy power armor being heavy power armor ?

That is a lot of firepower to direct at something.
Best likely done with weapons that have the longest range we have.

*And for when you want the world burn, filled up a Mirage with a 12 man squad with 24 Heavy Flamers to likely burn their way through most infantry without ever getting out of their ride. But armor should be a different one for that without the AutoTargeters at the very least.
 
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Edit: and if you are wondering about naval costs: divide/multiply by 100, and yes EP directly determines build time. And batch builds when that comes up.
Can you tell us how specifically. EP corresponds to build time, or do we have to try and work it out from our existing designs?
Also leaves a bit of a bad taste that when the shields are down the crew is theoretically the least protected when transporting troops.
Pilots having less armour than the troops they're transporting is normal though? It's wasteful to give them better than Wraithweave when they don't really need it.

I don't understand this trend I've been seeing where people are acting like we have to give everyone maximum armour all the time.
We only gave our troop options so much Ithilmar because we thought our main limitation on refitting our troops would be AP, and we only found out otherwise after the vote was over. Giving crew members wraithweave so we can afford to outfit more of our army isn't a bad thing.
 
Pilots having less armour than the troops they're transporting is normal though? It's wasteful to give them better than Wraithweave when they don't really need it.

If they were in an armored compartment I would somewhat I agree with you.
Things they aren't, they are more or less in the "open" like the Infantry at least with what we are working at the moment. (or at least from the image we have it looks like that is the case).

Overall i would like them in VGA, but it isn't particularly important.
 
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If they were in an armored compartment I would somewhat I agree with you.
Things they aren't, they are more or less in the "open" like the Infantry at least with what we are working at the moment. (or at least from the image we have it looks like that is the case).

Overall i would like them in VGA, but it isn't particularly important.
They're behind a Holo field and two vehicle grade Grav Shields. I fail to see how that qualifies as 'in the open'.
They're not expected to leave the transport unless it gets shot down, so giving them Carapace-equivalent is fine. Void Guard Armour (MEQ) is excessive.
 
They're behind a Holo field and two vehicle grade Grav Shields. I fail to see how that qualifies as 'in the open'.
They're not expected to leave the transport unless it gets shot down, so giving them Carapace-equivalent is fine. Void Guard Armour (MEQ) is excessive.

The grav shields have some pretty noticeable weaknesses that while the Holo-Field fixes some of them (amount of fire that actually hits is lower and fucks up guided systems pretty hard), it doesn't cover all of it.

And while the Holo Fields make it harder to target AOE attacks mostly need close enough and kind of go right through the grav shields.

The system is even effective at disrupting grav-weapons, which few other defensive technologies can claim; however, they have three primary flaws: firstly, area-effect weapons can bypass the system simply because they only need to be near a target to inflict damage. Secondly, the system is less effective against guided, actively propelled projectiles such as missiles or torpedos, which can course-correct from deflection. Thirdly, the system can only stop so many attacks within a set period, and therefore massed fire can overwhelm the system. Nonetheless, Grav-shields are a potent defensive technology.

The heavier armor is there to help take the Aoe hits or at least help mitigate the damage they do if they come close enough.

I wouldn't go with the heavier armor as example if we had conversion fields unlocked and on this (in exchange for one of the grav shields).

There is also the case that enough shots hit to bring down the grav shields, but that hopefully is a very niche problem.
 
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I wouldn't go with the heavier armor as example if we had conversion fields unlocked and on this (in exchange for one of the grav shields).

[ ] Conversion Fields (-2 points)
Conversion Fields absorb energy from incoming attacks, stopping most energy weapons and kinetic projectiles cold. Depending on their precise settings they can even provide significant protection against area effect weaponry. The principle limit is that a Conversion Field can only handle a certain maximum amount of energy over a set period, and if this threshold is exceeded the field generator suffers a destructive overload.

While Conversion Fields are nice, they can also buckle under weigth of Fire. I don't know what you are expecting us to face. These are Super Elite Vehicles and Troop Gear. Shields are really rare on any Vessels below Titans in WH40k. We have three on a Troop Transporter.
 
[ ] Conversion Fields (-2 points)
Conversion Fields absorb energy from incoming attacks, stopping most energy weapons and kinetic projectiles cold. Depending on their precise settings they can even provide significant protection against area effect weaponry. The principle limit is that a Conversion Field can only handle a certain maximum amount of energy over a set period, and if this threshold is exceeded the field generator suffers a destructive overload.

While Conversion Fields are nice, they can also buckle under weigth of Fire. I don't know what you are expecting us to face. These are Super Elite Vehicles and Troop Gear. Shields are really rare on any Vessels below Titans in WH40k. We have three on a Troop Transporter.

I expect the conversion field to cover their weak point that are still there when you stack Holo-Fields and Grav-Shields.
Here the important part:
Depending on their precise settings they can even provide significant protection against area effect weaponry.


Overall the Conversion fields handle AOE stuff and lots of small weak attacks, while the grav shields deals with the few heavy attacks or catches some of the exotic attacks.
While the Holo Field fucks with Smart weapons and in general lowers the amount of stuff the shields have to catch.

Holo-Field, Grav-Shield and Conversion Fields have some nasty synergies when you stack them together because they cover the weaknesses the other parts have.

At least so far, we haven't seen any indication that they don't work very well together.
 
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[X] Razorwind Jetbike, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor 6 EP
-[X] 1 Light melee weapon 1 EP
-[X] 1 pistol flamers 1 EP

[X] Plan: Riding Leathers
-[X] Mirage Assault Transport, Crew
-[X] Wraithweave Brigantine for armor x4 8 EP
-[X] 4 Light melee weapon 4 EP
-[X] 4 pistol flamers 4 EP

[X] Bramble-class Escort Cutter
 
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At least so far, we haven't seen any indication that they don't work very well together.

Until Mechanis throws a Wrench in our Plan and makes the Conversion Fields take 3 Slots :V

Ideally we would have all three, but right now we have two Grav-Shields for the Mirage and that will deflect a lot Shots. Not AoE but Lances, Lasers, Needlers, Shuriken etc will all get deflected hopefully.
 
[ ] Reverse-engineer Plasma Blasters (1 AP initial)
[ ] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (6 AP initial)
[ ] Reverse-engineer Grav-weapons (4 2 AP, est 1-3 turns)

So by the looks of things, we should be getting plasma weapons and conversion shields by the start of next turn.

The conversion fields are gonna come in handy on pretty much every level of our military and navy (that isn't a vehicle crew or anything smaller than a frigate at least) but what I wanna know is, how effective would grav and plasma weapons be for us?

I'd imagine that on the ground, plasma might not be all that useful in comparison to our star weapons or fatecasters (the former can hit almost as hard as a lascannon at the bare minimum / hits three times as hard when it's a heavy weapon, and the latter is pretty much guaranteed to hit whatever it's shooting unless it's warping reality), but they could come in pretty handy on escorts like the Bramble maybe?

(Though to be fair, I am getting inconsistent information about the effectiveness of plasma, some sources are saying it's a good, cheap anti MEQ weapon, others say the Eldar versions are less powerful than the Imperiums but can fire faster, it's kind of hard to predict what they're gonna be like)

Grav-Weapons would be pretty neat as both a ship-borne and an infantry weapon plus there's not really any way to defend against them aside from another grav-shield or (maybe?) Void shields (which only titans would have, although I'd love to see if we can reverse engineer those)

(Iirc, don't the craftworlders have a ship-mounted starcannon that was really good on the tabletop?)
 
[X] Plan: Nettle-class Escort Cutter

[X] Plan Briar-class Escort Cutter
-[X] 3x Spike Macrocannon batteries (9 NEP)
-[X] Reinforced Hull
-[X] Lascannon Point Defense Battery
-[X] Holo-Field (3 NEP)
-[X] Aethersail

A 'compromise' design, and also an economizing one, the Briar class has both a reinforced hull and lascannon battery for PD on the same hull-but is dependant on a single Aethersail, with no backup propulsion rendering it somewhat vulnerable. This is largely offset by it's naval holofield, but it is a design compromise neccessitate by the thick Wraithstone psycho-ceramic armor and the need for clear fields of fire for the PD battery.
 
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Point worth making, but who the fuck is going to be throwing out major AOE like that in sufficient saturation to ensure hits against Troop Transports? Major artillery barrages aren't cheap, aren't easily concentrated, aren't even easily targeted at our shit given how fast Eldar vehicles tend to be, and these are fucking troop transports.

The counter to our vehicles is the sort of shit that'd be being used against Super-Heavies or Battle Tank Divisions for any other faction, and the absurdity of how disproportionately difficult to kill our stuff is is quite frankly amazing, and should be enough.
 
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[X] Razorwind Jetbike, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor 6 EP
-[X] 1 Light melee weapon 1 EP
-[X] 1 pistol flamers 1 EP

[X] Mirage Assault Transport, Crew
-[X] VGA for armor x4 24 EP
-[X] 4 Light melee weapon 4 EP
-[X] 4 pistol flamers 4 EP

[X] Bramble-class Escort Cutter
 
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