So by the looks of things, we should be getting plasma weapons and conversion shields by the start of next turn.

Note the intial for the Costs. Could be that we will have to invest more Points in those Technologies to actually unlock any of them.

EDIT: I think Plasma could be pretty great for us. If it does not cost us Exotics, then we could end up using a lot of Plasma Weapons, which are noted to be pretty reliable for us. Also... a Warhost of Vaul using lots of Plasma is kind of fitting. You have to melt all the Scrap our Enemies are throwing at us, before we can reforge it into something useful for us :D
 
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The grav shields have some pretty noticeable weaknesses that while the Holo-Field fixes some of them (amount of fire that actually hits is lower and fucks up guided systems pretty hard), it doesn't cover all of it.

And while the Holo Fields make it harder to target AOE attacks mostly need close enough and kind of go right through the grav shields.
I expect the conversion field to cover their weak point that are still there when you stack Holo-Fields and Grav-Shields.
Here the important part:



Overall the Conversion fields handle AOE stuff and lots of small weak attacks, while the grav shields deals with the few heavy attacks or catches some of the exotic attacks.
While the Holo Field fucks with Smart weapons and in general lowers the amount of stuff the shields have to catch.

Holo-Field, Grav-Shield and Conversion Fields have some nasty synergies when you stack them together because they cover the weaknesses the other parts have.

At least so far, we haven't seen any indication that they don't work very well together.
You do understand that this is just a dedicated transport right? You're looking at the weak spots in the shielding as reason to be concerned about the occupants, when the fact that it even has shielding in the first place already puts it a step above the basic transports of the vast majority of other races.

This isn't a main battle tank, you shouldn't be acting like if we don't make it invulnerable it's a failure on our parts.
 
[X] Plan: Nettle-class Escort Cutter
-[X] 3x Spike Macrocannon batteries (9 NEP)
-[X] Lascannon Point Defense Battery
-[X] Holo-Field (3 NEP)
-[X] 2x Aethersail
 
I'd imagine that on the ground, plasma might not be all that useful in comparison to our star weapons or fatecasters (the former can hit almost as hard as a lascannon at the bare minimum / hits three times as hard when it's a heavy weapon, and the latter is pretty much guaranteed to hit whatever it's shooting unless it's warping reality), but they could come in pretty handy on escorts like the Bramble maybe?

(Though to be fair, I am getting inconsistent information about the effectiveness of plasma, some sources are saying it's a good, cheap anti MEQ weapon, others say the Eldar versions are less powerful than the Imperiums but can fire faster, it's kind of hard to predict what they're gonna be like)

We probably wouldn't want plasma for direct fire weapons, but to make munitions: plasma grenades, missiles, artillery and mortar shells, which we're currently lacking.

Grav self-propelled guns with a small Webway portal and indirect fire howitzers firing plasma shells guided by fatescopes could be very, very deadly, as flying quickly and firing while not needing to properly aim but them functioning as if they're precision guided is an incredibly potent effect.

Particularly as it would make the shells proportionately very cheap, and with the webway portal an exceptionally high volume of fire could be sustained. This would be very effective against both orks and eldar enemies with holo-fields.

It would also work well with seer directed targeting to say where abouts to aim for maximum strategic impact, with what's effectively terminal guidance supplied by the fate scope.
 
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[X] Alessi-Class Defence cutter
-[X][Naval Battery] System Slots Refunded
-[X][Naval Battery] 2x Spike Macrocannon
-[X][Propulsion Systems] Plasma Thruster
-[X][Equipment] Holofield
-[X][Equipment] Point Defense Battery
-[X][Equipment] Reinforced Hull
 
Until Mechanis throws a Wrench in our Plan and makes the Conversion Fields take 3 Slots :V

Ideally we would have all three, but right now we have two Grav-Shields for the Mirage and that will deflect a lot Shots. Not AoE but Lances, Lasers, Needlers, Shuriken etc will all get deflected hopefully.

I mean for the attached transport, my plan is to switch one of the 2 grav shields over so a 3 slot cost is perfectly fine.
Because I think the synergistic coverage is pretty nice and better than the double up on the grav shield.

I'd imagine that on the ground, plasma might not be all that useful in comparison to our star weapons or fatecasters (the former can hit almost as hard as a lascannon at the bare minimum / hits three times as hard when it's a heavy weapon, and the latter is pretty much guaranteed to hit whatever it's shooting unless it's warping reality), but they could come in pretty handy on escorts like the Bramble maybe?

Eldar plasma weapons are quite nasty.

And I think it will see quite a lot of use in our ground forces when we get it.
Mostly when we don't want to expand the starcrystals for stuff, but still want a lot of punch.

And as mention by alratan lots of indirect fire potential.
 
So by the looks of things, we should be getting plasma weapons and conversion shields by the start of next turn.

The conversion fields are gonna come in handy on pretty much every level of our military and navy (that isn't a vehicle crew or anything smaller than a frigate at least) but what I wanna know is, how effective would grav and plasma weapons be for us?

I'd imagine that on the ground, plasma might not be all that useful in comparison to our star weapons or fatecasters (the former can hit almost as hard as a lascannon at the bare minimum / hits three times as hard when it's a heavy weapon, and the latter is pretty much guaranteed to hit whatever it's shooting unless it's warping reality), but they could come in pretty handy on escorts like the Bramble maybe?

(Though to be fair, I am getting inconsistent information about the effectiveness of plasma, some sources are saying it's a good, cheap anti MEQ weapon, others say the Eldar versions are less powerful than the Imperiums but can fire faster, it's kind of hard to predict what they're gonna be like)

Grav-Weapons would be pretty neat as both a ship-borne and an infantry weapon plus there's not really any way to defend against them aside from another grav-shield or (maybe?) Void shields (which only titans would have, although I'd love to see if we can reverse engineer those)

(Iirc, don't the craftworlders have a ship-mounted starcannon that was really good on the tabletop?)
Pretty sure the current AP cost in Seeker is just a rough estimate and more will have to be done to get the tech.

As for plasma guns, they are most likely going to be more effective than other non-exotic equivalents on average. Probably more expensive than them in terms of EP, but potentially still exotics-free. Plasma pistols, at the least, might be a good default sidearm option for our elites. Also, I've seen plasma weapons generally depicted as good against everything, so they might make for a good default option for those troops in general, especially if they do not cost exotics and we need to spend them elsewhere, such as for ships or vehicles or for a critical gun rather than the main weapons. Then again, if they do cost exotics, they will probably still be cheaper than the rest of the exotics, so a cheap but still excellent option. Although, I do agree that plasma will probably find its best place in things like explosives.

As for grav-weapons, well, you're using gravity to ruin someone's day. The natural choice for anti-heavy usage.
 
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[X] Razorwind Jetbike, Crew
[X] Plan: Riding Leathers
[X] Hawkship-class Fast Cutter
-[X] 2x Spike Macrocannon Battery
-[X] 1x Las-Lance Weapon Battery
-[X] 2x Æthersail
-[X] Holofield
-[X] Point Defense Battery
 
[X] Plan Briar-class Escort Cutter
[X] Plan: Nettle-class Escort Cutter
[X] Hawkship-class Fast Cutter
 
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While I'm alright with my design not winning I would prefer our new cutter have some PD since both Eldar and Orks can spam strike craft.

Our current carrier capabilities are are downright terrible as the only ship we have that has hangars is the Battle Brig and our Brig only has a single hangar, for reference, most carrier oriented cruisers in 40k have at least 2 hangars and even the smallest Ork Roks have 1 hangar going by BFGA2.

Our existing Cutter and Sloop designs lack PD which makes them incredibly vulnerable to the strike craft that I have highlighted are very common in Ork fleets. Considering the fact that all the popular designs are only running Æthersails having some way to ward off strike craft without needing to run to a group of ketch's or capital ships would help a lot with ensuring that this ship isn't always joined to the hip with something that has PD.

[X] Hawkship-class Fast Cutter
-[X] 2x Spike Macrocannon Battery
-[X] 1x Las-Lance Weapon Battery
-[X] 2x Æthersail
-[X] Holofield
-[X] Point Defense Battery

[X] Plan: Nettle-class Escort Cutter
-[X] 3x Spike Macrocannon batteries (9 NEP)
-[X] Lascannon Point Defense Battery
-[X] Holo-Field (3 NEP)
-[X] 2x Aethersail
 
Our current carrier capabilities are are downright terrible as the only ship we have that has hangars is the Battle Brig and our Brig only has a single hangar, for reference, most carrier oriented cruisers in 40k have at least 2 hangars and even the smallest Ork Roks have 1 hangar going by BFGA2.
Our carrier "problem" is easily fixed, the moment we start on capital ship designs.
A Hangar is only 1 slot, and the larger ships at least have a good number more to work with.

The Dhow hull as an example has some pretty good potential there with 10 System slots baseline.
And after Holo-Field and Grav-shield still has 5 baseline slots to use.
 
Our carrier "problem" is easily fixed, the moment we start on capital ship designs.
A Hangar is only 1 slot, and the larger ships at least have a good number more to work with.

The Dhow hull as an example has some pretty good potential there with 10 System slots baseline.
And after Holo-Field and Grav-shield still has 5 baseline slots to use.
You are massively understating how long it would take to get a carrier Dhow online.

Just designing a new capital ship is an entire turn plus Stewardship AP investment, then you have to build it and the QM has stated that in our current state even a destroyer will take multiple turns.
Note that even a destroyer is a massive construction project which can take multiple turns at this stage, and will effectively soft-lock that action for some time.
While things will probably get better as we get repair our Craftworld that will also take multiple turns.

Not to mention that this is our only current strike craft
Smallcraft are warriors smaller vehicles carried by a Voidsiop into combat in a Hanger. At present your only Small Craft is the Bright Eagle Fighter-bomber, a general purpose attack craft.
Bright Eagle Fighter-bomber
Developed just prior to the Fall, the Bright Eagle carries two vehicle grade Starlances and a pair of heavy Lascannons. The craft is also fitted with a bomb bay, able to serve as a light bomber in addition to its role as a fightercraft. Bright Eagles may also be attached to ground forces detachments as Special Units, where they operate as a wing-pair.
Equipment:
• 2 Starlance (Vehicle)
• 2 Lascannon (Heavy)
• 1 Bomb Bay
Cost:
• 469 (1 Fighter)
• 2,814 (Squadron of 6)
Special Resource Requirement:
• 40 Starcrystals (1 Fighter)
• 240 Starcrystals (Squadron of 6)
That double Starlance loadout makes it prohibitively expensive if we wanted to fill multiple quad or even twin hangar carrier designs with these things so we would also need AP investment to design a new fighter especially since it also doesn't have Holofields or Grav-Shields.
 
I think it can take multiple turns, it just depends on how expensive it is in EP.
With our current fighter design a single squadron is 240 Starcrystals and 2,814 EP, if you wanted to fill just a single twin hangar Dhow design it would be 480 Starcrystals and 5628 EP assuming each hangar fits one squadron.

That's more than the cost of a Forge of Vaul action just in EP and that's before factoring the cost of Dhow itself.

Even an stripped down fighter design with Starlances replaced with Las-cannons or Spike Cannons but with Holofields and a single Grav-Shield would cost 357/367 EP apiece or 2142/2202 EP per squadron so it still would be most of an entire Forge of Vaul action just to stand up 2 squadrons for one average carrier, much less a Void-Stalker/Emperor equivalent with 4 hangars.

Now it is possible that filling the hangar of a starship works differently from building a fighter that can fight with our ground forces but we'd need QM clarification to answer that.
 
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With our current fighter design a single squadron is 240 Starcrystals and 2,814 EP, if you wanted to fill just a single twin hangar Dhow design it would be 480 Starcrystals and 5628 EP assuming each hangar fits one squadron.

That's more than the cost of a Forge of Vaul action just in EP and that's before factoring the cost of Dhow itself.

Even an stripped down fighter design with Starlances replaced with Las-cannons or Spike Cannons but with Holofields and a single Grav-Shield would cost 357/367 EP apiece or 2142/2202 EP per squadron so it still would be most of an entire Forge of Vaul action just to stand up 2 squadrons for one average carrier, much less a Void-Stalker/Emperor equivalent with 4 hangars.

Now it is possible that filling the hangar of a starship works differently from building a fighter that can fight with our ground forces but we'd need QM clarification to answer that.
Ah, I was talking about Destroyers specifically.

If nothing else we do currently have a Void Stalker equivalent already (or at least it's built on the same chassis) with the Combat Brig, and that only has one Hangar (for two Strikecraft wings).
 
Wait, I assumed the Reinforced Hull had some kind of EP cost as well. Is that not the case? Either way though, I'm skeptical that Nettle would see more total losses. I figure the increased chance of a Mobility kill would counterbalance being physically tougher, considering being dead in the water nullifies their biggest defense of speed and Holo fields.
We don't know, it probably does but I'm confident that it's nowhere near 12 NEP (A las cannon PD grid is 4 times the cost of an escort's Holo-Field generator, I'm not assuming more armor is more expensive than a shield generator). And I think you're discounting just how fragile this thing is going to be to any weapon that lands in spite of the defenses or can ignore the defenses (obviously we're not fighting Nova weapons at the moment but AOEs in space are definitely a thing in 40k)

We literally have no idea of how many escorts of ours just died once they lost mobility compared to those survivors. If we just extrapolate entirely from the damaged vessel list we have no way of knowing what actually ends up with a ship dead or a ship damaged.

Edit: The fact is the known cost for your components is 24 NEP versus the Bramble's 12 NEP. If they were the same cost I wouldn't even be debating, but there's a decent chance the Nettle winds upwards of 50% more expensive than the Bramble while still remaining situationally less survivable. Those Las-cannons are largely only going to be protecting the destroyer itself given range limitations so its paying a lot for that capability on a platform that isn't necessarily worth that investment.
Point worth making, but who the fuck is going to be throwing out major AOE like that in sufficient saturation to ensure hits against Troop Transports? Major artillery barrages aren't cheap, aren't easily concentrated, aren't even easily targeted at our shit given how fast Eldar vehicles tend to be, and these are fucking troop transports.

The counter to our vehicles is the sort of shit that'd be being used against Super-Heavies or Battle Tank Divisions for any other faction, and the absurdity of how disproportionately difficult to kill our stuff is is quite frankly amazing, and should be enough.
Uh, the Guard throws out a lot of mortars and tube artillery. Template weapons in general counter our defenses. Guided missile artillery is probably going to be fairly effective against our vehicles given that defeats grav-shield deflection and the holo-field is probably offsetting it several meters where a large enough warhead could still inflict damage. Now, *shrapnel* is affected by a grav-shield (though that's a lot of attacks) and our troop transports are undoubtedly insanely tough for what they are, but they probably don't need tanks or super-heavies to engage them with any success.

But yeah, the Mirage is done as far as I'm concerned. Going back to refit it with conversion fields we won't have for several turns isn't even on my radar.
We probably wouldn't want plasma for direct fire weapons, but to make munitions: plasma grenades, missiles, artillery and mortar shells, which we're currently lacking.

Grav self-propelled guns with a small Webway portal and indirect fire howitzers firing plasma shells guided by fatescopes could be very, very deadly, as flying quickly and firing while not needing to properly aim but them functioning as if they're precision guided is an incredibly potent effect.

Particularly as it would make the shells proportionately very cheap, and with the webway portal an exceptionally high volume of fire could be sustained. This would be very effective against both orks and eldar enemies with holo-fields.

It would also work well with seer directed targeting to say where abouts to aim for maximum strategic impact, with what's effectively terminal guidance supplied by the fate scope.
I can see us going for some plasma macro-batteries to supplement Las Lances as our primary non-exotic ship to ship weapon, maybe as a non-exotic vehicle weapon that hits hard while still having decent RoF. But I agree that we largely want it for munitions.

This would probably be actually possible for a Super Heavy vehicle. We know the Storm Serpent can pack a mobile Webway portal (though that one is sized for everything up to Vypers to fit through it), I guess you could link multiple artillery batteries to fire out of any individual SPG's portal. I can't imagine a Webway portal is cheap or tough though, so it'd definitely still be a superheavy artillery piece that doesn't want to be exposed to incoming fire.

With our current fighter design a single squadron is 240 Starcrystals and 2,814 EP, if you wanted to fill just a single twin hangar Dhow design it would be 480 Starcrystals and 5628 EP assuming each hangar fits one squadron.

That's more than the cost of a Forge of Vaul action just in EP and that's before factoring the cost of Dhow itself.

Even an stripped down fighter design with Starlances replaced with Las-cannons or Spike Cannons but with Holofields and a single Grav-Shield would cost 357/367 EP apiece or 2142/2202 EP per squadron so it still would be most of an entire Forge of Vaul action just to stand up 2 squadrons for one average carrier, much less a Void-Stalker/Emperor equivalent with 4 hangars.

Now it is possible that filling the hangar of a starship works differently from building a fighter that can fight with our ground forces but we'd need QM clarification to answer that.
I don't think spamming our incredibly expensive fighters on the single frailest ship we'll likely ever build is a better solution. Even if we're only paying in NEP, that puts a squadron at 28 EP (22 EP for your cut down versions). We want to convert a lot of our destroyers to whatever design we make along with getting our Combat Brigs (our existing carriers) online for Biel-Tan. This makes that effectively impossible besides refitting a handful of pocket carriers.
 
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I don't think spamming our incredibly expensive fighters on the single frailest ship we'll likely ever build is a better solution. Even if we're only paying in NEP, that puts a squadron at 28 EP (22 EP for your cut down versions). We want to convert a lot of our destroyers to whatever design we make along with getting our Combat Brigs (our existing carriers) online for Biel-Tan. This makes that effectively impossible besides refitting a handful of pocket carriers.
I wasn't advocating for that though, I was pointing out that we are in no condition to build even a budget carrier on a cheap light cruiser hull (the Dhow is a light cruiser, not a destroyer) so that makes having PD on all our ships that much more important since as I pointed out earlier Orks are going to have a ton of strike craft even if most of their ships are only going to be single hangar ships like Roks.

Not sure what Biel Tan's fleets are going to look like but quite a few of the Corsair and Craftworld cruiser and light cruiser designs in 40k have at least 1 hangar so it wouldn't be surprising if Biel Tan's current fleets are bringing a decent amount of strike craft to the table as well.

Since all our ships are either entirely or mostly reliant on the incredibly fragile Aethersails for propulsion strike craft are going to be an absolute menace if we don't give all our ships a means for shooting them down.
 
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I wasn't advocating for that though, I was pointing out that we are in no condition to build even a budget carrier on a cheap light cruiser hull (the Dhow is a light cruiser, not a destroyer) so that makes having PD on all our ships that much more important since as I pointed out earlier Orks are going to have a ton of strike craft even if most of their ships are only going to be single hangar ships like Roks.

Not sure what Biel Tan's fleets are going to look like but quite a few of the Corsair and Craftworld cruiser and light cruiser designs in 40k have at least 1 hangar so it wouldn't be surprising if Biel Tan's current fleets are bringing a decent amount of strike craft to the table as well.

Since all our ships are either entirely or mostly reliant on the incredibly fragile Aethersails for propulsion strike craft are going to be an absolute menace if we don't give all our ships a means for shooting them down.
Whoops, apologies for misrepresenting your argument. This is what I get for trying to weigh in on the thread after coming back to it. And I don't actually think of strikecraft as being all that threatening. In 40k strikecraft are either deploying semi-guided torpedoes, boarding bods, or attacking weakpoints in the hull with relatively precise weapons to inflict damage. Aethersails increases risk of the latter but I'd be amazed if holo-fields can't spoof torpedoes fairly reliably, no one is regularly 'boarding' Aethersails, the latter is a case of deflecting and distributing damage to avoid any catastrophic tears in the sails.

Another thing to consider is that we actually have a pretty dedicated AA cruiser in the Battle Caravel. Using a Battle Caravel as an escort leader is definitely an option, and it's far and away better suited to protecting our Carracks and Brigs given it's also a lance boat.

Edit: At the risk of being repetitive if it was the same price to use a las-cannon pd battery as it was a reinforced hull I'd probably be voting for the Nettle. But it's 12 NEP. If we assume the Aethersails and the reinforced hull both cost 3 NEP each, that's ~30 NEP for the Nettle, 21 NEP for the Bramble before the base hull comes into play (which we can't even pretend to speculate on).
 
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Thinking a bit about plasma and grav weapons when we unlock them and where they are likely going to be used.

I think plasma is in the void mostly going to be used on bombers for things like plasma bombs or missiles. As we most likely will have a lot of very good other options. But that might change if we get bright lances as a direct downgrade from the Starlances in exchange for not needing strategic resources to build.

On the ground, I think it has a high chance of being used as our go-to weapon when we aren't using the resource type weapons. High armor pen on infantry weapons combined with pretty good range and likely an at least ok fire rate make them pretty damn solid choice.

Grav weapons in the void might become something we use a lot, as they ignore a lot of shield types.
And in a void battle, being able to have your attacks ignore void shields is pretty huge.
They are also likely pretty good as an AOE weapon to mobility kill other Eldar craft that mostly/only use sails.

On the ground they become a bit more questionable for me because we already have a very good anti armor option (likely the area where they excel) and as said by multiple people before energy shields of any kinds are damn rare for most races. But will have to be seen what kind of AOE grav tricks that opens up for us to be sure.
 
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