Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[]X Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides
I think you missed :p

While you do have some points, I want to remind you that Renshu sent his puppets to blame us for banditry first.
Had we not intercepted them and had enough reputation already, this could have completely destroyed our social.

So the first strike was his, before we did anything to him, and it was quite a horrible one.
We don't actually have any proof of that, though he's suspect number 1, so we shouldn't use it as motivation. Would be cool to question him after beating him up for his loot, though.

I originally didn't want to be a killjoy when Meizhen was being so helpful but I've been convinced. Best for Ling Qi to at least question escalating towards excessive violence. Even avoiding going overboard, I imagine that we'll loot him for all he's worth, we simply won't also be snipping his tendons etc...

[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides
 
"But-but-but he might come back to destroy us!" says paranoid-kun

But paranoid-kun, you have to remember that we have plenty of people who want to smash our faces in. We also have a tournament in a few months , do we really want to deal the the possible real consequences of killing/maiming /crippling a fellow cultivator at the age 14 in an admittedly childrens sandbox play arena.

While most won't care for YR himself as he made plenty of enemies, I'm sure the opinion of us by other sect members will fall.

Cai may dissaprove of such acts ..or even worse, she'll approve of them and ask us to do such task in the future. I'd very much like ling qi to not be typical xianxia protagonist who cripples any who slight her.

That's a bai thing. And we know they are a bag of dicks
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides
 
[x] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.

I don't quite care what happens to Renshu, he's a greedy, malignant bastard with a fierce grudge towards us. Just because we stole some of his stuff and he's content to harass us by offering our enemies a free lead and sabotaging our sect missions for now, doesn't mean he won't stab us where it hurts, at a critical time, when he feels like he could get away with it. Like say...a week before the tournament? It's four months he has to build up his base again, and we can definitely count on him carrying a grudge.

Whether he struck first or how it merits escalation is sort of secondary as well, it's the threat he will pose in the future that we need to address. We don't have the luxury in the slightest to leave a green cultivator with a burning grudge free to just skip around, especially because he still has followers and hideouts. We are just climbing our way up towards this year's elite, and one grave mistake could see our face in the dirt for another year. Say what you will, but I'd rather see Renshu eating his cultivation pills through a straw for the rest of his life than that happening.

Also, Renshu sabotaging us means that he doesn't at all fear retaliation from Meizhen, which is just a terrible and grave mistake. You mess with one of us, you get shanked in your sleep, simple as that.

That being said though, I'm wary of Meizhen breaking the Sect rules, though again she's probably best placed to know precisely where the line in the sand is.

[X] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.

Hope the Bloody Moon smiles on us, because I've got a feeling this is going to be a tough fight, even with Meizhen.

Also RIP Wolves Mission. Hope it's still available next week.

[X] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.

Bloooooooody moooooooooooooon~

Let's burn a stick of incense to her before we venture out, shall we? She'll probably approve thoroughly that we end up fulfilling her heroquest after all.
 
Yan Renshu totally has more stuff to lose: his life, his cultivation, his chance at the tournament. Crippling a dude because he has opposed you in, what amounts to, a practice arena* is quickly sliding into the standard and reviled Xianxia protagonist morals.

I mean, it's not hubris to not want to be a vengeful asshole, Bai Meizhen is already willing to go and stop Yan Renshu from being a threat to Ling Qi by destroying his bases and looting his stuff. Excess cruelty for the sake of making a point is kinda terrible?

* Remember that there is life after the end of the year and the sect is not the end all be all.

We're not doing that to make a point though. We're doing that to prevent a revenge from him. The fact is if you don't take this option, you're just going to his base, wreck him, loot his shit, and giving him more reason for 'all-or-nothing-revenge'.

It's not hubris to not wanna be a vengeful asshole. It is hubris when looking at YR and seriously believe that, 'lol he can't do jack shit to us'. It is true that there is life after the end of the year and the sect is not the end all be all. But it is presumptious to believe YR care about that, since his action doesn't peg me as someone who care about life after sect or even as a rational man.

While we have a lot of people who'd love to see us 'humbled', none of them go around enslaving people or rob other people while masquerading as us, or more importantly a green realm cultivator that specialised in formation. YR is dangerous, that's the reason why Meizhen took a preventive measure against him by crippling him.
 
@yrsillar I have a couple questions about Zhengui!

First, when do the fire attacks from Ashfall happen? Start of the round, on the enemy's turn, start of Zhengui's turn, end of Zhengui's turn, or some other time?

Second, I noticed Zhengui doesn't have a root technique like he demonstrated against that poor innocent rabbit (you monster). Was there an oversight and Gui's supposed to have some kind of grapple attack flavored as roots/vines, or has it just not coalesced into a viable combat technique as of yet?

Oh, and one of the passives has funky grammar: "Adds one armor piercing the attacks". Assuming the "the" is meant to be a "to".

Thanks!
 
I originally didn't want to be a killjoy when Meizhen was being so helpful but I've been convinced. Best for Ling Qi to at least question escalating towards excessive violence. Even avoiding going overboard, I imagine that we'll loot him for all he's worth, we simply won't also be snipping his tendons etc...
Speaking for myself I would be perfectly fine with us dragging him to Xuan Shi and imprisoning him for the next 4+ months (so he misses the tournament). I am not fine with active mutilation and the like, which is what I'm worried Meizhen might feel is the appropriate response.

It would fit well with upholding Cai's 'justice' image by punishing someone who held so many in bondage for so long, would still keep him out of our hair and let us utterly destroy his powerbase whilst and keep his stuff. It keeps up Meizhen's scary image and inflicts a heavy punishment on him without letting her actually maim someone, thus fufilling Ling Qi's duties as a friend. It establishes Ling Qi and Bai Meizhen as better Xu Jia and her ilk, who think it's ok to gouge out someone's eye when they're helpless because you've got friends in high places.*

It's better for our image in general to be seen as invested in justice and not just revenge and puts the idea of crippling us further out of people's heads, because it shows that we will respond proportionally. We've already shown that we are a very dangerous enemy to have by destroying his powerbase and what we did to Sun Liling and I don't feel crippling adds much beyond a barbarity factor. Plus Ling Qi doesn't like or want to do that sort of thing.

I do not want to encourage the 'never forget and never forgive' attitude of the Bai or the idea that any enemy we make must jump straight to outright crippling or worse because we will. Because whilst they are powerful the Bai's attitude has caused them a lot of problems.

*Really not a message I want to be sending as Li Suyin's friend. 'No really it's wrong that it happened to you, it's ok when I do it.' Also not the sort of thing I'd want to say around Su Ling.
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides

I slightly prefer doing the wolf mission but that obviously isn't gonna win.
 
We're not doing that to make a point though. We're doing that to prevent a revenge from him. The fact is if you don't take this option, you're just going to his base, wreck him, loot his shit, and giving him more reason for 'all-or-nothing-revenge'.

It's not hubris to not wanna be a vengeful asshole. It is hubris when looking at YR and seriously believe that, 'lol he can't do jack shit to us'. It is true that there is life after the end of the year and the sect is not the end all be all. But it is presumptious to believe YR care about that, since his action doesn't peg me as someone who care about life after sect or even as a rational man.

While we have a lot of people who'd love to see us 'humbled', none of them go around enslaving people or rob other people while masquerading as us, or more importantly a green realm cultivator that specialised in formation. YR is dangerous, that's the reason why Meizhen took a preventive measure against him by crippling him.

Going and crippling a dude after Ling Qi has shattered his powerbase and in return he had supplied info to Sun Liling and sent a couple of puppets to hamper her sect missions is the definition of excessive retaliation. I mean, what is he going to do, supply even more information to Sun Liling? And if he ever desire to be more than an outer sect disciple he has to stop trying to hunt Moby Dick.

I also don't see why you think he super vengeful, so far he has only threw an all out attack at Ling Qi to stop her from destroying his contract/reputation, offered Sun Liling information for free and used puppets to sabotage missions. Irrational grudge bearer isn't something he had proved himself yet.

My point about life after sect wasn't about Yan Renshu(though it applies to him to) it was about Ling Qi and how she/her compatriots/her enemies/her allies will ser her afterwards. As @Mr.rodent pointed out, if Ling Qi is willing to cripple people willy nilly people will expect her to repeat this.

And of course, everyone thinks that the Bai are dicks, even other Bai members, they aren't a role model to ape. Meizhen judgement on how to punish opponents may work for the Bai (an old established and powerful family) but it doesn't mean it fits Ling Qi (a no name commoner).
 
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[X] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides
 
That's actually a good argument for having him jailed /sealed. He did hold so many in forced bondage it would only be fair he himself is bound. And it would score us majorrrrr points with cai who is all about justice. While we may lose some points with bai I honestly think it's better we encourage her to chill a bit like we did with Gu. She already has plans to kill khang, possible Sun, and now renshu.... yeah she needs to chillll
 
I could care less if Meizhen's ideas on retaliation or punishment are proportionate. The only thing that matters here is that Yan Renshu is destroyed as utterly as possible. The grudge is enough that I'd want him dead if we could get away with it - and so would Ling Qi, based on what she literally said in the update.
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.
 
So... while I appreciate the discussion on morality regarding the question of Meizhen possed, I'm going to discuss something entirely different, and what is, in my opinion, the true highlight of the update. Zhengui!

He is still adorable and amazing, even at his new size! We are capable of riding him while looking on at the bafflement and incredulity of the other outer sect members. It's fantastic! What is even better is the way that he synergizes with us as a huge asset in our fights.

First off, defenses. While he is near us and using his defensive technique, he has about 7 armor, which he can regain a durability on by spending 2 qi. Activating the ability takes about 4 qi, and lasts 4 turns, which means for about 3 qi per turn he can keep the 7 armor up indefinitely (well, until his qi runs out). 3 qi per turn to potentially block 7 damage is a fantastic ratio, and it will only grow in value the more armor he gets. The problem is armor piercing, but as long as the armor blocks at least 2 damage then it is still in Zhengui's favor. He has a good amount of health, has an ability that allows him to heal up lethal and non-lethal damage, and in general is an amazing tank. (he also has really good defensive dice, which promise to get even better)

Second off, offense. Each of his offensive dice is a damage over time ability, which suits a tanky spirit beast like him because the longer the fight drags on the more advantage it is to Zhengui (due to his passive and healing abilities). Two of these abilities also reduce the person's offensive dice by 2, meaning that if he can land them the individual is at -4 to offensive dice. Landing them might be a little tricky if he is punching up, but with us and FVM drastically reducing an opponent's defense his ability to land his offensive debuffs and dot abilities is dramatically increased. Did I mention that one of those abilities is an AoE as well? Because it is, and it looks like it will be an amazing addition to an FVM and AE field of death that is impossible to escape from.

All in all, he is quite able to tank shots that would have been meant for us with little to no harm (allowing us to trigger TRD's 2qi regen) and dramatically benefits from us taking chunks out of an opponent's ability to defend. He then leverages those holes in the opponent's defense to apply his own AoE and DoT abilities that also reduce the target's ability to retaliate. His amazing defensive capabilities are further enhanced by us with TRF. Another 2 unpierceable armor, more health, and more defensive dice just make him tank that much harder as well as the passives increasing his attacks.
 
Second off, offense. Each of his offensive dice is a damage over time ability, which suits a tanky spirit beast like him because the longer the fight drags on the more advantage it is to Zhengui (due to his passive and healing abilities). Two of these abilities also reduce the person's offensive dice by 2, meaning that if he can land them the individual is at -4 to offensive dice. Landing them might be a little tricky if he is punching up, but with us and FVM drastically reducing an opponent's defense his ability to land his offensive debuffs and dot abilities is dramatically increased.


Actually, Zhengui doesn't even need to land Ashfall to debuff -2 to offense. It applies as long as they're in the AoE.
 
Actually, Zhengui doesn't even need to land Ashfall to debuff -2 to offense. It applies as long as they're in the AoE.
True, but the "Blood Boiling Venom" (which is an amazing name for the ability) does require a successful strike, and it gives a -2 to offense and -2 to defense for a couple of turns. So having the person's defense lowered from us does help with landing that ability.
 
To be honest, Zhengui's awesome tankiness and TRF's qi regen, which has me less worried about upkeep alongside our last SLPs, has made me want a second spirit even more. Alongside Zhengui, we have the awesome tank/attrition style and I am pretty convinced by Wood as our third element now. But we still somewhat lack in DPS and a speedy offensive lil monster that's Darkness/Wind would be an awesome addition.

Especially in the tournament, where Zhengui may have to match up against older more experienced bound spirits, I think a second spirit that could quickly help us finish fights would be awesome! Zhengui has also made me much more confident in our ability to handle the stronger contestants that lack a spirit to help in battle, though.
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides

I think that Ling Qi has some scruples about how far she is willing to go, at least within the context of the sect which is still basically a children's playground. To that you have to add worry about possible consequences for Meizhen if the Elders think she overstepped herself.

I nonetheless hope that "overboard" starts only at permanent cultivation crippling. Anything less than that is fine.
And after we take our piece out of him we really should deliver him to Cai for imprisonement or whatever she decides. I mean, even if we weren't well disposed to becoming her retainer we agreed to go along with her mock government.
 
I could care less if Meizhen's ideas on retaliation or punishment are proportionate. The only thing that matters here is that Yan Renshu is destroyed as utterly as possible. The grudge is enough that I'd want him dead if we could get away with it - and so would Ling Qi, based on what she literally said in the update.
Firstly. No. The update does not indicate Ling Qi wants Yan Renshu dead.
Meizhen says:
"I had assumed you to simply be squeamish about finishing things…"
Which Ling Qi reads as 'you were squemish about killing him'. To which Ling Qi responds:
"I don't think we can get away with killing him," Ling Qi replied slowly. "He's already about as neutralized as he can get, isn't he?"
She answers slowly because she's weirded out that her friend just suggested that the solution to her problems was murder. Not because she's seriously considering it. Her response to Meizhen pointing out he still had resources and no one would really care if she went after him indicates Ling Qi basically thought of him as mostly neutralised and no longer particularly relevant (which fits well with her earlier characterisation).

Meizhen studied her for a moment. "Ling Qi, who do you imagine would retaliate if that boy were crushed entirely? Death may be a step too far, here in the sect,, but he still retains the resources to do harm."

"I guess I kinda figured it wasn't that important," Ling Qi replied sheepishly. "I mean, he managed to screw with my one mission, and he lead Sun Liling to me, but I've taken steps against that."

EDIT: We also see her feeling creeped out at what Meizhen may be suggesting, which doesn't really fit with the level of grudge you're assuming.

Secondly, really?

Ling Qi's feelings and desire to not help mutilate someone who's helpless don't matter? The judgement of our friends (one of which had almost the exact same thing happen to them) doesn't matter? Encouraging Meizhen's self destructive Bai tendencies? The fact that this 'destruction' could backfire massively and cause us more problems, say by giving him absolutely nothing to lose and having him suicide charge us, or by Su Ling and Li Suyin deciding they don't want to be friends with someone who does the exact same things as Xu Jia or the massive escalation issue we've just caused ourselves?

None of that matters over destroying this one guy who, let's be honest, hasn't even been particularly good at causing us problems relative to what we've done to him?

I just don't understand this argument. Please explain to me how he merits this sort of response.
 
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Ahh, I wish I could have gotten this out earlier but time is not on my side since winter holidays don't happen until much later in China.

What I really like about the Meizhen interaction is that it really drives home how much Meizhen sees her as an equal. We know Cui thought of her as a viper, but clearly Meizhen expected her to behave as she would too.

Right now, Bai and Qi represent two opposite camps of thought when it comes to dealing with threats.

Bai is a show of force. Cut the threat out, root and branch - do not just kill the soldiers, torch their villages, put families to the sword and salt the fields. If people understand that your retaliation will cost them, if it is tangible and meaningful and nearly insane in its scope, then you will have reduced the threats to those stupid and insane enough to risk such things. Or those powerful enough to weather the consequences (e.g. Sun Liling). Meizhen grew up in a household where such logic was commonsense and probably driven home in all manner of ways, starting with the Sun/Bai split and then encouraged elsewhere (Kang mentioned the Bais turning on themselves?).

But there are consequences to such a philosophy: I doubt that the Sun/Bai split would have been half as acrimonious if the Bais weren't so obsessed with maintaining their reputation. Their patriarch certainly wouldn't have wandered into Sun's camp and declared a duel and then died. I mean, objectively speaking, it was a dumb move predicated entirely on their philosophy of total control and total fear. If one person acts out then you have to, no matter the cost, take them out.

Like I said, dumb. I hope they've tempered it somewhat since his fall though some can probably argue they've gotten worse.

The other, Ling Qi's, is to keep it secret, keep it safe. What people do not know of cannot be threatened, except incidentally. This is what Ling Qi did, as much as possible, for Zhengui and also for herself. The people that she has mentioned her past to can be counted on the fingers of one hand - I'm not sure she has even mentioned to anyone that she has a baby half-sister yet and I don't think that's a coincidence. Normal people, discovering they have a baby half-sibling would probably have mentioned something at some point, but Ling Qi has kept absolutely mum. She grew up on the streets - she trusts her ability to keep things hidden far more than she trusts her ability to protect them. Even with all the power she's accrued, she still defaults to thinking of herself as a girl cowering beneath a heap of trash with no friends and no power and no way to meaningfully retaliate.

It is the Yin/Yang difference I suppose, Bai playing Yang, Ling playing Yin.

I don't think one trip with Bai Meizhen will necessarily change Ling Qi's outlook on the matter - she's not so callow that the extremes to which Bai Meizhen will go are unthinkable to her, and I doubt anyone would actually be surprised by what Bai Meizhen and Ling Qi do to Yan Renshu (besides maybe Yan Renshu)- it's not just Meizhen's imperial serpent majesty aura that scared people off but her family's reputation which is also now part of Ling Qi's reputation. If there is a shift it'll be from 'considers certain things not okay' to 'doesn't really care' and arguments can arise as supporting one or the other that I'd see as near equally reasonable.

But someone whom we should consider is probably Zhengui.

See, Zhengui is young and impressionable. His drive to protect Ling Qi is probably due to the fact that Thunderdome Take 3 happened when he was a weeks-old toddler. The world was big and scary and big and scary people wanted to hurt momma and momma was not powerful enough to get rid of them by herself. So he needs to step up and protect her! (Zhen's thought processes are probably a trifle different)

And now we go after someone and do everything but kill him.

I'm not sure what that'll do to his development, but it's unlikely to be fun. If we do plan on going after Yan Renshu without caring if Meizhen goes overboard I kind of... want to leave him at home. Kind of like how parents, when they're about to have a screaming row, tell their kids to go to their rooms and then the kids go to their rooms, put pillows over their ears, and try to block it out. >_>;

Like it's easy to say 'he's a spirit beast and sooner or later he'll be doing stuff like this anyway' but at the same time he seems to be about 8 years old, mentally, and Ling Qi's totally treating him as smol son so let him be a baby a little while longer?

Annnd that's my ten cents on the matter.
 
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