Remove ads

Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Reader mode
Horium said:
About the production track sabotage:
How we repay Fu Xiang's favor will probably affect not only our relationship with him, but also how Ling Qi returns favors in general and her stance on gratitude.

I personally dislike what he asks of us, but Ling Qi shouldn't, she generally is not a virtous/good person (really, Ling Qi is neutral at best) and only cares about "her and hers".
By sabotaging the production specialists, she also indirectly helps Su Ling and Suyin, as already mentioned.

So, the most appropriate question is not "If", but "How much" should Ling Qi help Fu Xiang?

1) Sabotaging one cultivator: Bare Minimum.
Likely cools our relationship with Fu Xiang to "interact only when absolutely needed".
Ling Qi considers fulfilling her part of the deals/contracts only to the letter of law, not an inch more, and will generally attempt to weasel out from obligations when possible.

2) Sabotaging two cultivators: Our working relationship with Fu Xiang remains generally genial. Possibility of further deals.
Ling Qi generally believes in upholding her part of the bargain in both word and spirit of the deal, and values her word given more than previously.

3) Sabotaging three cultivators: Ling Qi goes above and beyond on her side of the deal. Likely a bonus from Fu Xiang.
Their relationship progresses. Greater chance for goodies being shown Ling Qi's way.
Ling Qi both values greatly her word, but also seeks to reward those who aid her unprompted to express her gratitude.

On the flipside, the more cultivators sabotaged, the greater the risk of: sect sanctions, making (talented) enemies with a grudge, loss of face/reputation, worsening relationship with at least Suyin.

That said, my stance is:
In for a penny, in for a pound.
We sabotage all three.
But we do it smart. We wait until we are Green, preferably with a level more in SCS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


To counteract this argument , we know ling qi tends to already give back more to those who have helped us previously or at least attempt to.

So that's not likely to change, the difference here is that while ling qi doesn't necessarily care about sabotage these unknown names and cultivators , she SHOULD care if it might affect her other friendships.

In this case li suyin. I think people are brushing off just how much li suyin will be affected by this or hurt in general.

After she was mutilated and beaten it took her quite some time to finally decide what she wanted and step up as well as gain a shred of confidence.

Currently suyin is giving it her all to get into inner sect , to show herself she has worth , that she's capable and better then those girls that attacked her.

If we suddenly destroyed all 3 targets and she felt that the ONLY reason she was getting into inner sect was because of our actions and not her own ability , her confidence would PLUMIT. There is even a chance she may decide to not go for inner sect until next year and our Friendship would be seriously fucked.

Do we really want to risk that drama on ling qi so near breakthrough , even worse before tournament ? I dont. Especially if it mean's only becoming close to not!kabuto .

Also considering these disciples aren't people who mistreated us , or in any way fucked us over I think it's starting to set a bad precedent in ling qis mind. It's bad when others hurt her or her friends but it's OK for her to hurt others , or ignore everyone else (just like the mission we did with SU and how she kind of called us out on it)

I don't want us to become stereotypical xianxia protagonist where only WE matter .
 
jacobk said:
Won't the second highsun pill cover us for the rest of the pre-breakthrough meridians? I didn't think we needed that many.

After breakthrough we'll have a lot more dice to throw around. Right now I think we're edging from the flat part of the meridian failure curve onto the steep part, which seems like an ideal time to use performance enhancing drugs.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Besides the 2 being opened this week at ~20% chance to fail (assuming Yrs doesn't throw a bonus for near-success last time), we'll need another 4 meridians if we want our all arts equipped when we're going for breakthrough; Leg AS3, Arm AC3, Heart FZ5, Spine TRF4.

The numbers are indeed arraying against us, and the only way to get reasonable success odds on getting all those is by opening the remaining 4 meridians on Highsun weeks, using friend-training actions for them in order to get the full 60 dice. Even then we're looking at 22% failure chance (assuming this week goes as planned).

We might be able to open the Heart meridian for FZ5 through overflow there, saving some of the risk (depending on exact dice), so a single Highsun meridian week with tutor training for the arts we can't delay is possible.

Horium said:
That said, my stance is:
In for a penny, in for a pound.
We sabotage all three.
But we do it smart. We wait until we are Green, preferably with a level more in SCS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're currently running up to 24 Stealth dice with 8 autos at night with OWS on. That's more than enough to make even 9 DC14 checks trivial. (which is as high as the DC on stealth will be, considering Renshu's layer was at most DC15).

The real problem, one that getting to Green won't solve, is Larceny. Our current dice (provided we get the 5th dot) are 16d + 6 autos. The DC on potential larceny tests here would be 11 at most, 10 more likely. A single test is easy enough if we bank on our reroll for it, with 3 tests we're looking at 10-20% chance of failure, and while it's a reasonable risk given the better rewards and low enough penalty for failure, it's not a cakewalk.

That said, there's absolutely no reason to delay to Green on this; we can get a talisman or something that gives 2-3 dice there with which we should be set. There was even a suggestion somewhere to spend an action on getting a 1st floor larceny art as prep. Either of those would be useful for lower risk on larceny tests in the short-mid term.
 
Last edited:
Humbaba said:
Can someone explain how we went from "we shouldn't push Meizhen on an area she is clearly very uncomfortable with and we probably won't like anyway" to "full steam ahead" on asking about ways to stay with Meizhen?

I'm not seeing how things have changed since we made that decision and there seems to have been basically no discussion about it, with it just getting slotted into every plan.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They changed because:
-Press her on this immediate, fresh issue we're dealing with at the same time as we press her on the long term issue that she looks uncomfortable with
--High risk. If either one fucks up they'd compound and make it worse.

-Press her on this long term issue she looks uncomfortable with. Ignore or delay the immediate issue.
--This has the priorities reversed.

-Press her on this immediate fresh issue. Ignore or delay the long term issue.
--This works out. If it goes well we press the long term one next. If it doesn't we let things cool off before addressing it.
Horium said:
About the production track sabotage:
How we repay Fu Xiang's favor will probably affect not only our relationship with him, but also how Ling Qi returns favors in general and her stance on gratitude.

I personally dislike what he asks of us, but Ling Qi shouldn't, she generally is not a virtous/good person (really, Ling Qi is neutral at best) and only cares about "her and hers".
By sabotaging the production specialists, she also indirectly helps Su Ling and Suyin, as already mentioned.

So, the most appropriate question is not "If", but "How much" should Ling Qi help Fu Xiang?

1) Sabotaging one cultivator: Bare Minimum.
Likely cools our relationship with Fu Xiang to "interact only when absolutely needed".
Ling Qi considers fulfilling her part of the deals/contracts only to the letter of law, not an inch more, and will generally attempt to weasel out from obligations when possible.

2) Sabotaging two cultivators: Our working relationship with Fu Xiang remains generally genial. Possibility of further deals.
Ling Qi generally believes in upholding her part of the bargain in both word and spirit of the deal, and values her word given more than previously.

3) Sabotaging three cultivators: Ling Qi goes above and beyond on her side of the deal. Likely a bonus from Fu Xiang.
Their relationship progresses. Greater chance for goodies being shown Ling Qi's way.
Ling Qi both values greatly her word, but also seeks to reward those who aid her unprompted to express her gratitude.

On the flipside, the more cultivators sabotaged, the greater the risk of: sect sanctions, making (talented) enemies with a grudge, loss of face/reputation, worsening relationship with at least Suyin.

That said, my stance is:
In for a penny, in for a pound.
We sabotage all three.
But we do it smart. We wait until we are Green, preferably with a level more in SCS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm strongly inclined to go for the triple, though Green would be good yes, I don't think anyone is going to be catching us at it unless Sun Liling happened to be at the market that day. He offered aid unasked at a critical time. This is the sort of behavior you want to reward!
 
Mr.rodent said:
To counteract this argument , we know ling qi tends to already give back more to those who have helped us previously or at least attempt to.

So that's not likely to change, the difference here is that while ling qi doesn't necessarily care about sabotage these unknown names and cultivators , she SHOULD care if it might affect her other friendships.

In this case li suyin. I think people are brushing off just how much li suyin will be affected by this or hurt in general.

After she was mutilated and beaten it took her quite some time to finally decide what she wanted and step up as well as gain a shred of confidence.

Currently suyin is giving it her all to get into inner sect , to show herself she has worth , that she's capable and better then those girls that attacked her.

If we suddenly destroyed all 3 targets and she felt that the ONLY reason she was getting into inner sect was because of our actions and not her own ability , her confidence would PLUMIT. There is even a chance she may decide to not go for inner sect until next year and our Friendship would be seriously fucked.

Do we really want to risk that drama on ling qi so near breakthrough , even worse before tournament ? I dont. Especially if it mean's only becoming close to not!kabuto .

Also considering these disciples aren't people who mistreated us , or in any way fucked us over I think it's starting to set a bad precedent in ling qis mind. It's bad when others hurt her or her friends but it's OK for her to hurt others , or ignore everyone else (just like the mission we did with SU and how she kind of called us out on it)

I don't want us to become stereotypical xianxia protagonist where only WE matter .
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Actually Ling Qi doesn't really help more than she receives. Meizhen, Xuan Shi and Han Jian have all helped us more than we have them.
With possible exception of Meizhen.

Additionally, I don't agree with it, but Ling Qi already is a selfish and greedy thief that doesn't really care about harming strangers. In that way, she already is a xianxia protagonist.

Hell, she improved from being a back-stabbing person that valued only herself to being considerate and loyal to her friends. In that way, she is different from typical xianxia protagonist.

Finally, Suyin having to toughen up a bit and stop putting Ling Qi on a pedestal is perhaps unfortunate, but not the end of the world.
 
Horium said:
Actually Ling Qi doesn't really help more than she receives. Meizhen, Xuan Shi and Han Jian have all helped us more than we have them.
With possible exception of Meizhen.

Additionally, I don't agree with it, but Ling Qi already is a selfish and greedy thief that doesn't really care about harming strangers. In that way, she already is a xianxia protagonist.

Hell, she improved from being a back-stabbing person that valued only herself to being considerate and loyal to her friends. In that way, she is different from typical xianxia protagonist.

Finally, Suyin having to toughen up a bit and stop putting Ling Qi on a pedestal is perhaps unfortunate, but not the end of the world.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's funny you say suyin needs to "toughen up" when we were literally crying to bai about her going easy on us in training and how we felt weak against sun and all that jazz not even last update.

This isn't about suyin putting us on a pedestal this is about our friend wanting to prove to herself she can be somebody , and has value only for that to be taken away from her via us helping her "cheat" .

Even if that's not how ling qi sees it , it will be how suyin sees it, and while su ling probobly won't hate us she'll think we are narrow minded idiots if we couldn't even consider suyins feelings on thE matter before we acted
 
So I like the idea of doing 3 thefts and I don't believe Suyin would try to stop us when it's a favour we owe to the guy who saved us from Liling. She might doubt her ability to get through on her own but I can't imagine she'd stop us.

My reluctance is more in how cruel it'd be to take these projects and the possible awkwardness in them begging us or Cai to give it back. We are getting a reputation for this kinda stuff and I doubt Fu's suggesting anyone Cai aligned...
 
Mr.rodent said:
That's funny you say suyin needs to "toughen up" when we were literally crying to bai about her going easy on us in training and how we felt weak against sun and all that jazz not even last update.

This isn't about suyin putting us on a pedestal this is about our friend wanting to prove to herself she can be somebody , and has value only for that to be taken away from her via us helping her "cheat" .

Even if that's not how ling qi sees it , it will be how suyin sees it, and while su ling probobly won't hate us she'll think we are narrow minded idiots if we couldn't even consider suyins feelings on thE matter before we acted
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The idea that winning fair and square is at all important is alien to the xianxia genre. Luck is a skill. Having a powerful family is a skill. Having powerful friends is a skill. People will be jealous of somebody who gets ahead based on connections, but it's rare to see somebody seriously put forth the idea that it's unjust. The whole self-made man mythos is not really part of the genre. Even the stories that kind of fit the self-made man vs. spoiled rich kid trope don't play it up the way you would expect.

Ling Qi is pretty firmly in the xianxia mindset in that respect. She took the free pass in Zhou's test. She's taken all the handouts Bai Meizhen will give her (even her big act of "helping" Meizhen involved going to a trial site, something other disciples would give their eyeteeth for). She took the dress from CRX. If Meizhen and CRX went and beat half of Sun Liling's faction into comas the week before the tournament, I'm pretty sure Ling Qi would take it with a smile on her face. Notice also that nobody gave Ling Qi flak for, e.g., taking the pass on the test.

Suyin wants to get strong and help her friends. She would feel bad if she thought she was making Ling Qi go out of her way to help Suyin out. She would be (quietly) pissed off if she thought Ling Qi was condescending to her. If Ling Qi going about her business happens to knock Suyin's competitors out of the running? I really doubt Suyin is going to feel righteous fury about Ling Qi ruining the sanctity of the competition. Maybe day one Suyin would have been that idealistic, but week 33 Suyin has had that beaten out of her.
 
jacobk said:
I really doubt Suyin is going to feel righteous fury about Ling Qi ruining the sanctity of the competition. Maybe day one Suyin would have been that idealistic, but week 33 Suyin has had that beaten out of her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She does kind of idolize us though:
yrsillar said:
Li Suyin would probably not approve of that though. She could very easily imagine the look of betrayed expectations on her friends face.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Klaus said:
She does kind of idolize us though:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You think she'd be disappointed that we stole from innocent-ish people? I guess that's possible.

Most of the thread discussion has been more along the lines of her wanting to "prove herself" or "make it on her own," though, which is what I don't buy. She doesn't want to be coddled, but if Ling Qi's actions happen to help her own chances at promotion I don't think she would feel like it cheapens the accomplishment or something.
 
jacobk said:
You think she'd be disappointed that we stole from innocent-ish people? I guess that's possible.

Most of the thread discussion has been more along the lines of her wanting to "prove herself" or "make it on her own," though, which is what I don't buy. She doesn't want to be coddled, but if Ling Qi's actions happen to help her own chances at promotion I don't think she would feel like it cheapens the accomplishment or something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't see the hand-wringing. It'll help her, but that's not the reason we're doing it.

If she can't deal with events outside her control helping or hindering her, then she should be like Su Ling, and just settle in for a quiet life as a 'middle-class' production cultivator.
 
jacobk said:
You think she'd be disappointed that we stole from innocent-ish people? I guess that's possible.

Most of the thread discussion has been more along the lines of her wanting to "prove herself" or "make it on her own," though, which is what I don't buy. She doesn't want to be coddled, but if Ling Qi's actions happen to help her own chances at promotion I don't think she would feel like it cheapens the accomplishment or something.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If her issue is moral in terms of stealing, I have little sympathy honestly. It's a big part of who Ling Qi is and she ought to realise that.
 
jacobk said:
Suyin wants to get strong and help her friends. She would feel bad if she thought she was making Ling Qi go out of her way to help Suyin out. She would be (quietly) pissed off if she thought Ling Qi was condescending to her. If Ling Qi going about her business happens to knock Suyin's competitors out of the running? I really doubt Suyin is going to feel righteous fury about Ling Qi ruining the sanctity of the competition. Maybe day one Suyin would have been that idealistic, but week 33 Suyin has had that beaten out of her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't think the text supports your reading of Suyin's character.

"Are you sure you're ready for this then?" Ling Qi asked Li Suyin as the two of them, along with Su Ling, walked the path down toward the main courtyard. She still wore her disciples garb, but she had replaced the sash with a light green one patterned with leaves and formation characters.

"I am," the one eyed girl responded, Ling Qi thought her stance was stiff and tense, but she couldn;t say there was any hesitation in her words.

"I don't like the idea of being a spectacle," Su Ling grumbled, arms crossed, her pointed ears twitching agitatedly. She had replaced her disciples gown with a rather mannish outfit of thick cloth and leather with sturdy woodsman's boots and sleeves bound by steel studded bracers.

"It needs to be, or she can just ignore the challenge," Li Suyin replied firmly, fingering the needles holstered in the pouch at her belt.

"What are you going to do if she ignores it anyway?" Ling Qi asked curiously. She tugged uncomfortably at the gold lined armband she wore over her gown, she still wasn't used to it. It would make the chances of someone trying anything shady pretty remote though. Cai Renxiang had started to move fast in the aftermath of the fight. Probably to head off possible rumors of lacking strength on her part.

"Then I will return here every day this week to repeat it," Li Suyin said with determination. "If Xu Jia has so little honor that she can ignore that, then I will think of something else."

[...]

"My apologies if you mistook my intentions, Miss Xu. I of course intend only to take a reasonable token of victory," in an instant a small waterfall of spirit stones and pills fell from the ring, piling in front of the unconscious girl. "I am no bandit after all," she spoke in her usual quiet voice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If Suyin was as cynical as you're suggesting, her actions here make no sense. Why go to the trouble of challenging Xu to a formal duel instead of setting up an ambush, or just siccing Qi on her? Why stop at collecting a token, instead of robbing her opponent blind or maiming her? It's not like she couldn't have got away with it, seeing as Xu once tore off a decent chunk of her face.

The answer is pretty obvious, I think: Suyin still holds on to her chivalric ideals, even though she knows most other cultivators don't. If Qi gets caught stealing from the market, she will absolutely lose Suyin's trust and respect as a consequence.
 
bird yells said:
If Suyin was as cynical as you're suggesting, her actions here make no sense. Why go to the trouble of challenging Xu to a formal duel instead of setting up an ambush, or just siccing Qi on her? Why stop at collecting a token, instead of robbing her opponent blind or maiming her? It's not like she couldn't have got away with it, seeing as Xu once tore off a decent chunk of her face.

The answer is pretty obvious, I think: Suyin still holds on to her chivalric ideals, even though she knows most other cultivators don't. If Qi gets caught stealing from the market, she will absolutely lose Suyin's trust and respect as a consequence.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You should probably read her interlude. She is holding of for now but she is planning on taking even greater vengeance on Xu. Her belief in the "chivalric ideals" is pretty firmly destroyed.
 
jacobk said:
Most of the thread discussion has been more along the lines of her wanting to "prove herself" or "make it on her own," though, which is what I don't buy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Okay, yeah, that I don't buy, true. She doesn't like being in our debt though, so helping her win like this might touch other issues.

She thinks we're a good person, and cares about cultivators behaving badly.
yrsillar said:
"I… turning my face away from corruption is hardly better than being a part of it…
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
bird yells said:
I don't think the text supports your reading of Suyin's character.



If Suyin was as cynical as you're suggesting, her actions here make no sense. Why go to the trouble of challenging Xu to a formal duel instead of setting up an ambush, or just siccing Qi on her? Why stop at collecting a token, instead of robbing her opponent blind or maiming her? It's not like she couldn't have got away with it, seeing as Xu once tore off a decent chunk of her face.

The answer is pretty obvious, I think: Suyin still holds on to her chivalric ideals, even though she knows most other cultivators don't. If Qi gets caught stealing from the market, she will absolutely lose Suyin's trust and respect as a consequence.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
yrsillar said:
That bitch and her friends had trampled and ruined it like everything else they hadn't stolen. She had repaired the binding of course, pieced the pages back together as best she could, but looking at it still made her ruined eye throb. She found her hand clenching atop the cover as she grit her teeth and forced down the ugly emotion now bubbling in her chest.

She knew father would be disappointed with her for thinking such things, but she was not done with that witch Xu Jia, not by a long shot. She hated the part of herself that day had awoken, but in the end, it was apart of her. She could only accept it. Li Suyin would always be grateful to Ling Qi for helping her get through those early days, when the urge to do something foolish and short sighted had been nearly overwhelming.

Senior Sister Bao understood as well she thought, Li Suyin thought it odd that the older girl had seemed to take a shine to her. While she was careful and precise in her preparations, there were many others at the medicine hall of similar skill. It had only been after that shameful incident with that mean spirited boy assigned to share her testing room that Bao Qingling had shuffled her off and started giving commands.

She had showed her so much, and hinted at more. She would always be grateful to Ling Qi, who had helped her so very much… but she felt unworthy of her. Ling Qi had started from a much worse position than her, and she still strove to be better, unlike herself. Su Ling was the same, they were both good people in the way that she now knew she wasn't.
That did not mean she couldn't pay her friends back. She might be a petty, vengeful, deceitful girl, but she could still be of use to them because of that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

yeah she's pretty cynical lol

and breaking that idealized view of Ling Qi is probably what's bottlenecking that bond from becoming any tighter. She puts Ling Qi on a pedestal.

When there's that kind of distance there can be no real closeness.

That's just how it is
 
Vanguard_D said:
You should probably read her interlude. She is holding of for now but she is planning on taking even greater vengeance on Xu. Her belief in the "chivalric ideals" is pretty firmly destroyed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I have read the interlude, friend. It features Suyin fantasising about getting back some more at Xu, for a moment, and then feeling guilty immediately afterwards. Nothing in it makes me think she's abandoned her ideas of how a cultivator ought to behave.
 
Even if it annoys Suyin, it's better to have Ling Qi do all three.
That is if we don't want to lose her once we advance to Inner Sect.
 
bird yells said:
I have read the interlude, friend. It features Suyin fantasising about getting back some more at Xu, for a moment, and then feeling guilty immediately afterwards. Nothing in it makes me think she's abandoned her ideas of how a cultivator ought to behave.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
yrsillar said:
She knew father would be disappointed with her for thinking such things, but she was not done with that witch Xu Jia, not by a long shot. She hated the part of herself that day had awoken, but in the end, it was apart of her. She could only accept it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That isn't fantasizing.

And she doesn't put cultivators as a class on some kind of pedestal anymore.

Only individuals.
 
Suyin being disappointed in us is really the least of our concerns.

Far more relevant is a) being banned from the market, b) the effect on our reputation, and c) Cai's feelings, and how it affects her image as the defender of justice and order.
 
bird yells said:
I have read the interlude, friend. It features Suyin fantasising about getting back some more at Xu, for a moment, and then feeling guilty immediately afterwards. Nothing in it makes me think she's abandoned her ideas of how a cultivator ought to behave.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pretty much what everything Techron quoted.

I would not call it guilt, more like acceptance that this is her now. The only part she regrets is that she cant live up to what her father told her any more.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top