This is really a qestion for the council and not Starfleet; its an entirely political matter and should be thrashed out in the council. Starfleet really should not get involved in this decision. I think we should have an option to drop the hot potatoe where it really belongs in the lap of the council.
Do you really want a major narrative decision to be out of our hands? Really? Do you really want that? At the end of the day what happens will majorly affect our operations so it's best to have a say in what happens.
 
This is really a qestion for the council and not Starfleet; its an entirely political matter and should be thrashed out in the council. Starfleet really should not get involved in this decision. I think we should have an option to drop the hot potatoe where it really belongs in the lap of the council.

We could write in and do that. However, keep in mind that Starfleet will need to actually do things. What we are doing with these options is give the Council our best advice; Option 1) We believe that we can close the Straits of Themis and that taking whatever consequences will happen is the best option Starfleet can offer the Federation. Option 2) We believe that we can enforce a heavy toll on the Cardassian Union for their use of the Straits of Themis, and possibly use it later as a way to pressure the Cardassians. Option 3) Starfleet does not believe the Strait can be closed by Starfleet assets and this matter should be handled by the Members.

Option 3 is a bad choice by definition because Starfleet's job is to be the primary contact between foreign powers and the Federation's space interests. That's why it's so expensive politically.
 
The thing is, Starfleet has been involved in a consultation role. We're not making the decision, we're saying:
"Starfleet can handle escalation in the GBZ and can stop the Cardassians from supporting Hayant. If you think we should close the straits, we can handle any response the Cardassians make." -> which leads to upset Pacifists who think Starfleet is pushing for a military confrontation and upset Mercantilists who think Starfleet should be keeping their budget in mind
"Starfleet can handle policing Cardassian traffic in the straits. If you think it's worth keeping the straits open, we'll have no problems keeping them in line as they transit." -> which leads to angry Hawks who think that Starfleet should be pushing for a military confrontation
"Starfleet can't or doesn't want to handle policing in the straits. If you think it's worth keeping the straits open, you should look at other options." -> which leads to very angry Hawks and Expansionists who think Starfleet is shirking their duty


Unfortunately we're not "spending" our political capital so much as being asked to make a definitive statement over what Starfleet is or isn't prepared to do. Since we have to make a statement, once our statement is out there we can't avoid some of the Council being mad at us.
 
Unfortunately we're not "spending" our political capital so much as being asked to make a definitive statement over what Starfleet is or isn't prepared to do. Since we have to make a statement, once our statement is out there we can't avoid some of the Council being mad at us.
It's just annoying that all three of those lose pp, I think is the issue. A "pick who you want to side with" I'd expect a roughly neutral net pp cost, perhaps slightly weighed in one direction or the other if we choose particularly unbalanced groups to make happy or angry.

Hmm.

Is there a reason we can't have pp scores per party? I feel like that might provide a clearer picture of these kinds of situations. Downside is a hair more bookkeeping, and potentially runaway minmaxing unless something is done to keep it under control. A stabilizing trend or some other mechanic to encourage us to keep everyone at roughly the same level?
 
Unfortunately we're not "spending" our political capital
Actually I think we are. The Hawks and Expansionists are voting for closing the strait (39%) while the Pacifists and Mercantilists are in favor of allowing limited passage in exchange for SR/BR (33%).

That leaves the Development party, who we are explicitly told are not sure of which way to vote, as the swing party. Seeing as their chosen President is asking Sulu for his opinion this is pretty clearly us (Sulu) using his political capital to both sway the Development party to whatever side he picks and to placate the losing side.
 
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Well, the thing is, our recommendation is essentially being used to sway the parts of the Development party that are unsure. So we say a thing, N'Gir uses it to convince her fellow Development, but our statement isn't given in a vacuum and the other parties hear about it and some might be displeased. If you want the maximum cynicism, N'Gir is forcing Starfleet to take a stand, but keep in mind it's her right as President to get clear answers from Starfleet and our responsibility to give them.

OOC of course this is so we have input.
 
I'm surprised the Pacifists are going for it actually, it's definitely a muscle flex from the Federation side.
Pacifists have access to the same xenopsych research we do.

Anyway, the Hawks can bite me, and while soothing some Expansionist egos may be necessary, it's their fault for picking the wrong proposal.

[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
[X][THEMIS] Close the Straits of Themis entirely. Pacifists and Mercantilists upset (-19 pp), Cardassians livid. (Risk of alliance with Hayant, risk of escalation in GBZ)
 
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
The thing is, opening the Strait of Themis would limit Starfleet's ability to expand beyond it due to ongoing commitment costs in the Strait.

Of course, this also means that the Cardassians don't have a reason to set up a network of starbases south of Federation claimed territory and fewer possibilities to supply them because we are certainly going to ride herd of the Cardassian Union's convoys.

Frankly, we don't have to close the Strait in its entirety if we want to; just being able to say ' one convoy a month now, not one a week' could have ripple effects in the CU economy as expected resources don't enter the system because the ships that needed to deliver them are delayed or empty. Or the overhead and opportunity costs that come with needing to leave a few effectively idle waiting for a convoy...
 
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[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement

As I said before, this gives us leverage we can hold over the Spoonheads' spoonheads in order to force them to the negotiation table. The chance to interact with their clients is a bonus.
 
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[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement

While personally I would favor closing the straights completely this is the more diplomatic solution while not shirking our duty to guard the borders. That plus there will be ongoing contact between us and the Dawiar and Lecarre (and possibly other pact species) vessels that won't be a violation of the Treaty of Celos makes me want to take it for now. By giving access we also don't force the Cardassians to setup and fortify trade routes rimward of the Seyek which could limit our ability to expand in that direction after we're through with the GBZ.

I'm sure part of the agreement will be clearly designated travel routes to avoid ships wandering through our borders, customs and search/seizure rules and embargoes on certain types of products (weapons, dangerous substances, etc.) all of which will give us good ways to force communication or concessions.

And finally we can use raising tariffs or closing Themis completely as a negotiating tactic in future deals or as a response to Cardassian actions to either force them to back down or to drive them to declare war when we're ready for it.
 
RE: Expansion beyond the straits, you could easily enlongate the passage zone if your blob-border goes further west. I dunno about @OneirosTheWriter but I'd assume the only repercussion might be an increase in D req if it got really long.
 
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
I'm surprised the Pacifists are going for it actually, it's definitely a muscle flex from the Federation side.

We've seen the Pacifists demonstrating iron under their velvet before.

[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.

This gives us opportunities for interacting with the Cardies and their clients outside the GBZ, which I think is a net positive, though not risk free. And this is Starfleet's job.

fasquardon
 
[X][THEMIS] Close the Straits of Themis entirely. Pacifists and Mercantilists upset (-19 pp), Cardassians livid. (Risk of alliance with Hayant, risk of escalation in GBZ)
 
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
 
It's just annoying that all three of those lose pp, I think is the issue. A "pick who you want to side with" I'd expect a roughly neutral net pp cost, perhaps slightly weighed in one direction or the other if we choose particularly unbalanced groups to make happy or angry.
I dunno. It reminds me of something I said around 2311 quest time, when I was annoyed that we were having to spend political will in the snakepit to get the Council to even hold sessions regarding the Apiata and Sydraxian situations.

My objection to that was that the Council would have to be utterly derelict of duty to simply ignore crises on that scale. Sure they might arrive at decisions we don't like or can't readily implement. But they should at least be choosing to talk and discuss the issue among themseves, rather than adopt a policy of blind ignorance and hoping the problem will go away if they hide under the covers.

And I suggested that maybe a better way to proceed would be to say "hey, the Council will be holding a session on the Apiata crisis next week; spend 30pp if you want any real influence over that decision." That's frankly more realistic- the government doesn't have to be bargained into making the decision, but Starfleet has to exercise some of its influence and cash in a few political chips if we the players want to wade in and (in effect) control the outcome by exercising a political swing vote. Thus, all options will cost us some political leverage, because if we don't exert the lever than our opinion doesn't matter.

Hmm.

Is there a reason we can't have pp scores per party? I feel like that might provide a clearer picture of these kinds of situations. Downside is a hair more bookkeeping, and potentially runaway minmaxing unless something is done to keep it under control. A stabilizing trend or some other mechanic to encourage us to keep everyone at roughly the same level?
Hrm. I don't think that would work out well. Aside from the complexity, a lot of our sources of political will don't come with any obvious party affiliation. We do a favor for the Andorians; which of the multiple parties supported by Andorian councilors gets good feelings about us? We help negotiate a trade deal with the Laio, does that give us cred with the Expansionists, the Mercantilists, or the Developmentalists?

One of the core assumptions of the quest is that Starfleet is a mostly-nonpolitical organization that achieves mostly-nonpolitical successes that earn it the prestige to exert political influences. Trying to divide up our influence by party would tend to undermine that.

Kirk has like thirty such reprimands. It's a slap on wrist for a technical violation.

It's probably not going to hurt Volanen's career anymore than that moon Nash blew up hurt hers.
Enterprise:

"She did NOT blow the moon up. She blew it down. On top of us."

It's not even bonus. I'd be okay with an argument like "he's seen more rare diseases than the rest of Starfleet combined, don't you want a guy like that in charge of Medical next time we hit a biophage?".
Leslie:

"Well, he's been known to cure 'dead.' That good enough for you?"
 
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