Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This would be the worst possible time for them to declare war, because we've badly shredded their fleet. They'd be starting at a significant disadvantage.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
This would be the worst possible time for them to declare war, because we've badly shredded their fleet. They'd be starting at a significant disadvantage.
I suspect closing Themis won't trigger a war, but it will make the hatred smolder all the more and accelerate the timeline to war by several years. So like, no war in 2320, but a GBZ push maybe and war in 2323-2325 or something.
Of course, if the dice favor us, we could be looking at no effect. If we're very lucky.
Of course, if the dice favor us, we could be looking at no effect. If we're very lucky.
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
- Location
- Germany
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
[JK] Make the Cardassians ask pretty please with a cherry on top for us to keep the Straits open. Then make them do it again except standing on one foot and singing.
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
It's worth remembering that closing the strait doesn't actually cut off the Cardassians from either the Lecarre or Dawiar. It just significantly increases the distance, and thus likely the route penalty, on shipping goods to them.
Currently the route is Bajor -> Oldan Tar and is roughly speaking 42LY.
They could instead go Rimwards from Gandei, until they are Rimwards of Ashidi then fly Tailwards to the Lecarre and finally fly Corewards/Tailwards to Dawiar space. As you may guess from the number of locations mentioned this is a lot longer distance. About 67LY by my calculations for a ~60% increase in distance.
Edit: It doesn't actually change things for the Lecarre. Going through the straight is roughly 56LY for them and the above bypass is 53LY so it's pretty much the same trip either route.
Currently the route is Bajor -> Oldan Tar and is roughly speaking 42LY.
They could instead go Rimwards from Gandei, until they are Rimwards of Ashidi then fly Tailwards to the Lecarre and finally fly Corewards/Tailwards to Dawiar space. As you may guess from the number of locations mentioned this is a lot longer distance. About 67LY by my calculations for a ~60% increase in distance.
Edit: It doesn't actually change things for the Lecarre. Going through the straight is roughly 56LY for them and the above bypass is 53LY so it's pretty much the same trip either route.
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Hm... how much is 50 BR/SR compared to the projected Cardassian income? Does it match the income they get out of their BGZ mines?
On the other hand, cutting off Themis might also mean reduced income for them from the Dawiar and Lecarre.
On the third tentacle, those two polities aren't all that big, industrially speaking, compared to the other Ashalla Pact members.
On the fourth tentacle, the Hawks have a point about securing our borders and reducing risk of Obsidian Order ops.
On the other hand, cutting off Themis might also mean reduced income for them from the Dawiar and Lecarre.
On the third tentacle, those two polities aren't all that big, industrially speaking, compared to the other Ashalla Pact members.
On the fourth tentacle, the Hawks have a point about securing our borders and reducing risk of Obsidian Order ops.
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NHO
Dumb is a state of existence
- Location
- ᓚᘏᗢ
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
Alias
Lord of Otters
- Location
- Northrend
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
Each mine is approximately 25 resources of one type. The GBZ is unique in that there are sometimes multiple mines in the same system. Even so, 100 resources is likely equivalent to what their GBZ mines produce. Maybe not quite equal, but something like 125 or 150?
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- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
- Location
- Austin, TX
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
[X][THEMIS] Close the Straits of Themis entirely. Pacifists and Mercantilists upset (-19 pp), Cardassians livid. (Risk of alliance with Hayant, risk of escalation in GBZ)
I like to live dangerously.
I like to live dangerously.
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- Location
- madison
[X][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
you know what this does? it creates an ongoing point of concern between us, Cardassia , and the dawair. A permanent sore point to remind the space dwarves that they singed away the ability to so much as negotiate their own trade agreements. An example of the loss of sovereignty that comes with being in the pact. It's also forcing the cardassians to negotiate from a position of weakness, which will cost them a bucket of PP or whatever they have instead.
that said, Starfleet should be the ones patrolling the new zone because it's dealing with an external power, it is literally our job to do that sort of thing.
you know what this does? it creates an ongoing point of concern between us, Cardassia , and the dawair. A permanent sore point to remind the space dwarves that they singed away the ability to so much as negotiate their own trade agreements. An example of the loss of sovereignty that comes with being in the pact. It's also forcing the cardassians to negotiate from a position of weakness, which will cost them a bucket of PP or whatever they have instead.
that said, Starfleet should be the ones patrolling the new zone because it's dealing with an external power, it is literally our job to do that sort of thing.
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It's tempting to close the Straits of Themis entirely, but I'd rather not have a chance of Hayant allying with the Cardassians. And it's important to remember that if we open the Straits now we can make the Cardassians eat PP penalties whenever they start making noise in the GBZ by threatening to close the Straits. Worse, we can make them eat worse resource losses by closing the Straits if we play our cards right.
There is however the risk of the Dawiar and Lecarre getting a tech boost and becoming more threatening.
There is however the risk of the Dawiar and Lecarre getting a tech boost and becoming more threatening.
[X][THEMIS] Close the Straits of Themis entirely. Pacifists and Mercantilists upset (-19 pp), Cardassians livid. (Risk of alliance with Hayant, risk of escalation in GBZ)
Cut them off, if we did that then it illustrate Cardassians complete failure to aid their clients.
If we give them a limited opening it would show others that their power and influence still there and perception that they somehow talk us down from closing the straits.
We need to push to show the Pact have more weakness after weakness compare to the Federation.
Think what's the perception of giving them limited access apart from the physical aspect like resources.
Cut them off, if we did that then it illustrate Cardassians complete failure to aid their clients.
If we give them a limited opening it would show others that their power and influence still there and perception that they somehow talk us down from closing the straits.
We need to push to show the Pact have more weakness after weakness compare to the Federation.
Think what's the perception of giving them limited access apart from the physical aspect like resources.
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
[x][THEMIS] Open the Straits of Themis to limited commerce. Set up an Access Zone, patrolled by Starfleet. (This will act as another border zone, and will have a garrison requirement). In exchange, Cardassia must accept economic concessions (+50 BR/SR a year, limited trade open). Hawks angry, Expansionists annoyed (-26 pp). Cardassia will be unhappy, but may accept this arrangement.
power play from SF
power play from SF
Well, both options are power plays by us. Closing the straits entirely is more direct, but if we impose a tax then we send the message that we can do whatever we like here and they have to essentially surrender to however we want to impose control of this area. Like, that's an entire minor power worth of resources. It's no small change.
I'm surprised the Pacifists are going for it actually, it's definitely a muscle flex from the Federation side.
I'm surprised the Pacifists are going for it actually, it's definitely a muscle flex from the Federation side.
So when the Voshov goes into refit next quarter, that will actually be the last of our EC Excelsiors that need a refit.
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Isn't Stargazer technically EC? Who knows, maybe they'll get an Execelsior-Z upgrade from the future if they played their Voyager cards right.
This is really a qestion for the council and not Starfleet; its an entirely political matter and should be thrashed out in the council. Starfleet really should not get involved in this decision. I think we should have an option to drop the hot potatoe where it really belongs in the lap of the council.