Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

@tricholysis that only works if you assume ZB+ being a successor art plays no role in quality. We don't know much about mechanics of art quality and since it hasn't been clarified OOC, the only thing to do is test it and see if ZB+ is worthwhile.

you're not even arguing against ME at this point

And? It's a successor art. The simple fact that it's in red might be its bonus.

It's a second floor art. While in red. Despite the fact that second floor is supposed to be for yellow art. Do you really think it's worse than an yellow art? Despite being put aside from the red art?
no you're wrong pretty much explicitly

we were told ages ago that floor does not mean cultivation level directly—that there was some red stuff on floor two and some yellow stuff on floor two
 
One possibility I haven't seen discussed yet (edit: until I was writing this post, apparently) in the "is ZB+ the shit, or just shit" argument is the possibility that successor arts are stronger than an otherwise equivalent art. ZB+ may be stronger than an arbitrary late gold art from the second level of the archives because it builds on ZB. This would make sense both from a fluff perspective (it builds on something rather than starting from scratch) and from a mechanics perspective (an art with more prerequisites should be stronger than an art with fewer, because otherwise why not just get the other art).

Either way, we're locked into training it at least once now, so we'll see how strong the first level or two of it is before we have to decide whether or not to devote more resources to it. No point getting mad until we have a better idea of its quality.
 
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you're not even arguing against ME at this point


no you're wrong pretty much explicitly

we were told ages ago that floor does not mean cultivation level directly—that there was some red stuff on floor two and some yellow stuff on floor two
The main thing I'm wondering really, is why you're arguing this now, well after the vote to pick up ZB+ is over, and we're currently voting which successor art we want. This seems like more a case of closing the barn door AFTER the horses have been stolen.

I mean, it's not like the QM is going to magically change it to a general search at this late date, so this whole debate is pointless.
 
My point is that ZB+1 will be stronger or at least as strong as Deadly Wind1 that begins at yellow and does the same thing. Because it has 3 levels behind it to make it stronger.
no

NO

that's not IMPORTANT

I gave the example of SCS and FVM. Those have tons of 'levels behind' them. but there isn't an indication that having levels behind them is why they're strong at all—in fact since SCS and FVM suffered from being forced to a lower level, if you'll recall that, there's an indication that it's not important at ALL. what's important is the cultivation of the art, the small improvements a good cultivator can attain.

what's important in keeping single arts around is in the improvements that come along midcombat. but Ling Qi has never upgraded ZB that way, only FVM, because FVM is the only art that she actually pushes herself with, that she demands more use out of. ZB can freely be discarded because the only investment is 55 successes. one action
 
Right, about archive levels:
I'm... not sure how to do that without making a whole bunch of work for myself, but second floor is arts that start at late red, early yellow, third is arts that start mid or late yellow, with a few early greens spiced in.
They are generally about a mix of cultivation level and quality.
no

NO

that's not IMPORTANT

I gave the example of SCS and FVM. Those have tons of 'levels behind' them. but there isn't an indication that having levels behind them is why they're strong at all—in fact since SCS and FVM suffered from being forced to a lower level, if you'll recall that, there's an indication that it's not important at ALL. what's important is the cultivation of the art, the small improvements a good cultivator can attain.

what's important in keeping single arts around is in the improvements that come along midcombat. but Ling Qi has never upgraded ZB that way, only FVM, because FVM is the only art that she actually pushes herself with, that she demands more use out of. ZB can freely be discarded because the only investment is 55 successes. one action
That's flatly not how art works.

There is a reason why arts take many different levels and are not just 'learn it for this level', and that's they build on itself.
 
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The way I see it, we were already told that SCS/FVM would be second level Arts but are exceptional in how they scale from Mid Red/Gold up to Green.

I don't see whichever ZB+ route we take being significantly weaker than SCS/FVM were when they were at comparable levels.
 
no

NO

that's not IMPORTANT

I gave the example of SCS and FVM. Those have tons of 'levels behind' them. but there isn't an indication that having levels behind them is why they're strong at all—in fact since SCS and FVM suffered from being forced to a lower level, if you'll recall that, there's an indication that it's not important at ALL. what's important is the cultivation of the art, the small improvements a good cultivator can attain.

what's important in keeping single arts around is in the improvements that come along midcombat. but Ling Qi has never upgraded ZB that way, only FVM, because FVM is the only art that she actually pushes herself with, that she demands more use out of. ZB can freely be discarded because the only investment is 55 successes. one action
....ummm, I'm pretty sure there were multiple actions put into it, it's just those were when we weren't nearly as strong/rich/stacked as now. Also, didn't we max the art out?
 
you're not even arguing against ME at this point
Isn't your argument that instead of ZB+, we should have gotten a different Wind art from the second floor based on the later starting point making it better? My point is we don't know enough to claim that it will have a larger effect on the quality than ZB+ being a successor. It would fit the genre that the foundation set by ZB would make for a stronger art.
 
On to a healthier less controversial topic (for now) what are people's expectations for next week?

We probably will have to do a Sun Liling major action as well as more training of Zhengui, so it makes it a bad week for Eightfold path pill or Sable light week, so what will we do?
 
On to a healthier less controversial topic (for now) what are people's expectations for next week?

We probably will have to do a Sun Liling major action as well as more training of Zhengui, so it makes it a bad week for Eightfold path pill or Sable light week, so what will we do?
Not sure, maybe train AC a little? Max out FSA?
 
Then it probably mean quality, which once again support my point.
that is a very false dichotomy

there are many other axes that could determine an art's classification in the archive that have nothing to do with quality or cultivation level, even if yrsillar hadn't made statements about this

The main thing I'm wondering really, is why you're arguing this now, well after the vote to pick up ZB+ is over, and we're currently voting which successor art we want. This seems like more a case of closing the barn door AFTER the horses have been stolen.

I mean, it's not like the QM is going to magically change it to a general search at this late date, so this whole debate is pointless.
the point is being right, haven't you been on the internet long enough to learn that?

and I did argue against the horrific 'War/ZB+' subaction quite strongly. but planmakers with pet arts, lack of time on my part...

The way I see it, we were already told that SCS/FVM would be second level Arts but are exceptional in how they scale from Mid Red/Gold up to Green.

I don't see whichever ZB+ route we take being significantly weaker than SCS/FVM were when they were at comparable levels.
You're MISSING the POINT. I've argued several times that an early yellow would be preferable to ZB+'s late red because it's closer to what Ling Qi requires of her arts for them to be competitive in her action and meridian economies. ZB+ is a comparative waste of time.
....ummm, I'm pretty sure there were multiple actions put into it, it's just those were when we weren't nearly as strong/rich/stacked as now. Also, didn't we max the art out?
it's one action now. if successor arts are so beloved because they have levels put behind them, as Arkeus argued, then Ling Qi could overflow several red arts from the first floor for giggles in one or two actions each. but ZB is the only important one because of name recognition/prior investment.
 
You need to chill out.

Seriously.

You and one or two others aren't even waiting to see what it actually does before you dismiss it as a waste of points and resources.
 
that is a very false dichotomy

there are many other axes that could determine an art's classification in the archive that have nothing to do with quality or cultivation level, even if yrsillar hadn't made statements about this


the point is being right, haven't you been on the internet long enough to learn that?

and I did argue against the horrific 'War/ZB+' subaction quite strongly. but planmakers with pet arts, lack of time on my part...


You're MISSING the POINT. I've argued several times that an early yellow would be preferable to ZB+'s late red because it's closer to what Ling Qi requires of her arts for them to be competitive in her action and meridian economies. ZB+ is a comparative waste of time.

it's one action now. if successor arts are so beloved because they have levels put behind them, as Arkeus argued, then Ling Qi could overflow several red arts from the first floor for giggles in one or two actions each. but ZB is the only important one because of name recognition/prior investment.
Also, because we know its successor exists. You're forgetting that we went for ZB+ specifically because we knew it existed, whereas going for a slightly better yellow art would be a grab bag of what we got(and don't deny it would only be a moderate improvement if we got something that was similar to the options we got now, you've said so yourself)
 
no at this point I'm not mad at ZB+, I'm mad at people making decisions badly and making no sense.
Because it chaining of ZB is something that is likely to happen, since that was one of ZB's selling pints that it had higher level arts that chained off it. Don't deny that might have an effect on it's effectiveness, and even then random yellow art would still be only a modest improvement powerwise.

Bottom line, calling getting ZB+ is NOT a bad decision or stupid, and saying so is being really disingenuous.
 
Also, because we know its successor exists. You're forgetting that we went for ZB+ specifically because we knew it existed, whereas going for a slightly better yellow art would be a grab bag of what we got(and don't deny it would only be a moderate improvement if we got something that was similar to the options we got now, you've said so yourself)
the job description for being a voice in a tireless munchkin's head does not include passing up on improvements
Because it chaining of ZB is something that is likely to happen, since that was one of ZB's selling pints that it had higher level arts that chained off it. Don't deny that might have an effect on it's effectiveness, and even then random yellow art would still be only a modest improvement powerwise.

Bottom line, calling getting ZB+ is NOT a bad decision or stupid, and saying so is being really disingenuous.
and whether or not ZB+ is a successor art and whether or not successor arts need testing are not factors that justify Elder lessons on how to read Run Spot Run when Ling Qi is totally capable of reading Spot in Space
 
no at this point I'm not mad at ZB+, I'm mad at people making decisions badly and making no sense.
Still haven't explained how it's a bad and nonsensical decision to want to try out a successor art when the genre supports the idea of it being equal or better to a non successor art of a similar level.

Suppose you could just say it's all about impressing Jiao but then I'd question how you'd plan to do that? He doesn't seem the type to impress easy, especially with something as flashy as FSA.
 
the job description for being a voice in a tireless munchkin's head does not include passing up on improvements

and whether or not ZB+ is a successor art and whether or not successor arts need testing are not factors that justify Elder lessons on how to read Run Spot Run when Ling Qi is totally capable of reading Spot in Space
So your MAIN objection is that we're doing it while getting tutoring from Elder Jaio. Why didn't you say so?
 
Not sure, maybe train AC a little? Max out FSA?
Well, the chances of maxing out FSA are slim to none. We didn't train it this week so we have at least one more session before getting it to FSA4, and after that we need a meridian and another stage.

My personal thoughts are: Zhengui training, Sun or Yan quest line, Elder Jiao Training, Meizhen training, Mission.

We should only need one more training session after this one on TRF to get to TRF 3, which should be quite potent. So that would be one suggestion for training. As for Elder Training, we could do AM, AC, FSA, Formations, anything really. I would suggest a mission to capture the Storm spirits for four reasons.

1: replenish our sect points
2: It's a mission we can probably do fairly well with our bonuses
3: additional rewards could be anything from good pills (hopefully wind aligned!), to arts, to possibly tutoring.
4: Find a dang wind site. I mean come on, we should be able to find one by now!

It's not an exciting plan, and is, of course, subject to change. But if we aren't able to do massive pill weeks, we might as well do the best we can with the restrictions we have.
 
Well, the chances of maxing out FSA are slim to none. We didn't train it this week so we have at least one more session before getting it to FSA4, and after that we need a meridian and another stage.

My personal thoughts are: Zhengui training, Sun or Yan quest line, Elder Jiao Training, Meizhen training, Mission.

We should only need one more training session after this one on TRF to get to TRF 3, which should be quite potent. So that would be one suggestion for training. As for Elder Training, we could do AM, AC, FSA, Formations, anything really. I would suggest a mission to capture the Storm spirits for four reasons.

1: replenish our sect points
2: It's a mission we can probably do fairly well with our bonuses
3: additional rewards could be anything from good pills (hopefully wind aligned!), to arts, to possibly tutoring.
4: Find a dang wind site. I mean come on, we should be able to find one by now!

It's not an exciting plan, and is, of course, subject to change. But if we aren't able to do massive pill weeks, we might as well do the best we can with the restrictions we have.
I would favor training FSA, given someone's objection that we haven't really trained it much lately and it being our primary damage art.
 
I mean, we can certainly do that, and we may very well do so. We could slap that into training with Meizhen and train TRF with Jiao, as well as SCS. Focus on spine arts. Its just that with the continuation of the Quest mission and the training of Zhengui the likelihood that we will be able to do a good solid pill week during Elder Jiao's training are looking slimmer and slimmer.

Sect points should be gathered so that we can hire a tutor to do those types of weeks. It won't be as good, but we have the cards that we have and we got to play them as well as we can
 
I mean, we can certainly do that, and we may very well do so. We could slap that into training with Meizhen and train TRF with Jiao, as well as SCS. Focus on spine arts. Its just that with the continuation of the Quest mission and the training of Zhengui the likelihood that we will be able to do a good solid pill week during Elder Jiao's training are looking slimmer and slimmer.

Sect points should be gathered so that we can hire a tutor to do those types of weeks. It won't be as good, but we have the cards that we have and we got to play them as well as we can
Question: Do you want to find a wind site BEFORE training whatever art we pick up with this vote, or pick up the first couple levels, do a quest/take time to hunt for one, then seriously train the art?
 
[X] Driving Zephyr: An evolution of the common wind arts of the south. This branch focuses upon offense, driving forth allied missiles on the scathing eastern winds to strike home in the heart of the enemy
 
Question: Do you want to find a wind site BEFORE training whatever art we pick up with this vote, or pick up the first couple levels, do a quest/take time to hunt for one, then seriously train the art?
Well... we are already training the art this week. I would prefer not to train a wind art next week so that we can find a good solid site during the mission (fingers crossed) but a wind site isn't going to really change all that much in the short run. Depending on how many successes this wind art needs, it might be better to put it off for a week to make one last effort at finding a wind site and then train it up.
 
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