[Jk][WG] 1v1: K'Tinga vs a Renaissance.
[Jk][REPORT] A different possible War Scenario: invading the Klingons, with Rihan as our ally

My ears are perfectly normal, I assure you.


Meh, weaksauce, let's do hardcore mode:

[jk] General offensive war against Klingons and Romulans once they have attritted each other enough. Decapitation strikes against Cardassia with Cloaked Excelsior (Excelsior-C) to ensure they won't but it.
 
"My Fellow Federation Citizens.

Today I have passed legislation that outlaws Cardassia Forever.

We begin bombing in five minutes"

"Uhh...... President N'Gir. Ma'am. This stream is live"
Shit I remember that. While its funny now. It wasn't back then. Damn What a way to remember my age. It makes me feel old.
 
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[][WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Frigates will patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPA Centaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek cruiser, 2 Caitian Modern Swarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 2 Orion frigates, 1 Orion cruiser. Cost: 9pp.

e: I'd consider changing my vote to this if there was considerable support.
e2: Updated contents slightly.
 
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I really think next wargame should involve Orions and Caitians working together in some way. There's no obvious "direct" mechanical benefit nor will we likely learn anything new from the combat engine but the fact the Caitians are explicitly called out as needing more experience with working alongside others and war games are one way to remedy this seems like the GM really shooting up a red flag.

E: oh lol

[x] [WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, andFerasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPACentaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek Cruiser, 2 Caitian ModernSwarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 1 Orion cruiser.Cost: 8pp.
 
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I really think next wargame should involve Orions and Caitians working together in some way. There's no obvious "direct" mechanical benefit nor will we likely learn anything new from the combat engine but the fact the Caitians are explicitly called out as needing more experience with working alongside others and war games are one way to remedy this seems like the GM really shooting up a red flag.
Could add 2 Orion frigates to the above wargame at only 1pp cost?
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report

[X][WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Frigates will patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPA Centaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek cruiser, 2 Caitian Modern Swarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 2 Orion frigates, 1 Orion cruiser. Cost: 9pp.

I added two Orion frigates as they'll have to cooperate with the Caitians in the scouting part of the exercise.
 
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[X][WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Frigates will patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPA Centaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek Cruiser, 2 Caitian Modern Swarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 2 Orion frigates, 1 Orion cruiser. Cost: 9pp.

I am voting for it, but are we even allowed to requisition Seyek ships for this?
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report

[X][WG] Preparedness Exercise
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report

[X][WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Frigates will patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPA Centaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek cruiser, 2 Caitian Modern Swarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 2 Orion frigates, 1 Orion cruiser. Cost: 9pp.
 
A large exercise at this point would contribute significantly to their refit projects. I don't see that as a downside, and I don't see the current Indorian feet paradigm as viable anyway so we better get some proper experience in.
What, precisely, do you think is wrong with it?

The best timing would be 1.5y in advance. So if we can sketch a design not for next Snakepit but for the one after, then we should order it that Tactical Operations so that we have the opportunity to modify it once if we don't like the exact requirements that come out. In addition, a 1.5y window is more than enough to predict exactly what research would be available. I can't currently say exactly what research will be available for the later years in our window for the next few designs, so I can't make a year prediction, but I can say that it's beyond the predictable window and therefore we should sit tight this year.

In addition, the sweeping tactical review is an outlier that basically changes everything, and we should order it the turn before we order our next ship design project.
What I mean is... do you know roughly, to within an accuracy of plus or minus, say, one year, when you think we will have the technologies we need to design a combat frigate you deem satisfactory?

How about a generalist frigate that supplants the Centaur-A and can, hopefully, do well in fleet actions as a scout/skirmisher?

How about a heavy cruiser of the sort I saw bandied about earlier, the Victorias and so on?

I know you can't predict with absolute confidence, but can you at least give us a clue? Are we talking about ships for which the technology will probably be ready in 1-2 years? 3-4? 5-7? 9-11?

We were more or less able to do this with the Kepler-class- to make meaningful projections about when the technology would be ready. I think it would be good to have that out in the open, rather than being in a perpetual state of "wait for it... wait for iiiit... NOW!" when dealing with a subject where there is constant discussion and no small sense of urgency (due to the wave of alarmingly powerful designs coming out of our rivals' shipyards).

We know nothing about the Horizon ships, Horizon planets, Horizon fleet bases, defenses, nothing. A tactical report that includes them will be useless and say nothing. We were barely able to get a useful Diplomatic Posture report! The level of detail here in the readiness report is multiple orders of magnitude beyond that. We simply don't have the information available.
I agree. We wouldn't have been able to get this kind of detail about the Cardassians, either, until
1) The T'Mir spent years sneaking around their space identifying key Cardassian colonies and installations, AND
2) A defector with high-level knowledge of their military told us virtually everything there was to know about them, at least in broad.

We're just not there yet with respect to the Harmony.

If you want data on the Horizon, might try asking the ISC? Their diplomats apparently recognize Horizon ships on sight, and if they have fought a war in the past they're likely digging out and refreshing old tactical reports as we speak.
True. On the other hand, if the Commonwealthers knew the whereabouts of Harmony worlds and shipyard infrastructure and so on, AND IF the Commonwealth and Harmony had fought a war in the past, then we would not be having this conversation.

Because the Commonwealthers would have phasered the Harmony until they didn't know up from purple anymore, or failing that, just kept trying until they succeeded. We'd be having a conversation in the aftermath of either the ISC bombing the Harmony into the Stone Age, or the Harmony conquering the ISC.

The fact that both empires are still extant strongly suggests that they never really came to grips with one another.
 
What, precisely, do you think is wrong with it?

It's built around low-D, low-S ships with high C. That's not really a viable design as they get clowned in the scouting and skirmish phases, and the C advantage isn't that much in the vanguard as they're also a generation behind. Neither do their Large Escort frigates and "Frigate" cruisers have any staying power thanks to low durability, which is the key component of a vanguard ship. It's also a very poor fleet for peacetime. Basically, it seems to be built around the old paradigm that gave us the Miranda and Constellation, but modern combat has moved on.

What I mean is... do you know roughly, to within an accuracy of plus or minus, say, one year, when you think we will have the technologies we need to design a combat frigate you deem satisfactory?

How about a generalist frigate that supplants the Centaur-A and can, hopefully, do well in fleet actions as a scout/skirmisher?

How about a heavy cruiser of the sort I saw bandied about earlier, the Victorias and so on?

I know you can't predict with absolute confidence, but can you at least give us a clue? Are we talking about ships for which the technology will probably be ready in 1-2 years? 3-4? 5-7? 9-11?

We were more or less able to do this with the Kepler-class- to make meaningful projections about when the technology would be ready. I think it would be good to have that out in the open, rather than being in a perpetual state of "wait for it... wait for iiiit... NOW!" when dealing with a subject where there is constant discussion and no small sense of urgency (due to the wave of alarmingly powerful designs coming out of our rivals' shipyards).
I don't know these things. I need a list of technology by year, and in some cases what technology by what year depends on what year we want the ship in, so the problem is circular and there's no starting point. I can say that I would like T3 frigate subframes, something we haven't even started on, and T3 cruiser subframes, again, when we don't even have T2. I suppose a viable generalist could be made with T2 frigate subframes but I would have to do some tweaking to see if I can get D6 without T3.

2327 for the cruiser.
2319 to 2323 for the frigate was the date range I'd like, but the guy who does our research was looking at a later range.
 
@SynchronizedWritersBlock and while we're at it @Nix ...

Important question. We've got several proposed ship design ideas in the foreseeable future that have gotten a lot of discussion- particularly the combat frigate, generalist frigate, and heavy cruiser.

In what years do you foresee it being practical to design a good, solid ship in each of those categories? Knowing ahead of time would be nice, because I'm starting to get a bit antsy about how much we're talking about the need to design better ships, knowing our rivals are doing the same, and having us vote "do nothing" on the tactical role. I understand that it may not be wise for us to start a new role right this minute, but I'd at least like to see some numbers about when it probably WILL be wise to do so.
2319 is the earliest year that is at all reasonable, 2323 is a bit of a tech sweet spot and my favored target year. I have also targeted these years for research planning. That's not to say these are the only possible years that could make sense, there are parts becoming available every year (though some years no particularly important parts, e. g. for 2321 as of now just T2 recreation).
 
I think at some point we may have to say "the perfect is the enemy of the good," bite the bullet, and design the frigate as soon as we have a reasonable minimum of suitable techs. 2319, for instance. @SynchronizedWritersBlock is talking about Defense 6 for the frigate, for instance, and I'm not at all sure he should be trying that hard for it.

My reason for saying this is that we really do want to have at least ONE frigate class that is genuinely designed to function under the new combat engine, before we fight a high-stakes war under the new combat engine. Right now our 'war fleet' is built around a swarm of Miranda-As that cannot perform as planned in battle, due to low Science and Defense scores that didn't matter in combat when the ship statlines were written.

Delaying the frigate another four years to squeeze more performance out of it may not be a good tradeoff.

Notably, 2319 is not that far away, so it would hardly be a bad idea to update the frigate requirements now in order to start a design in 2319 or 2320.
 
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It's built around low-D, low-S ships with high C. That's not really a viable design as they get clowned in the scouting and skirmish phases, and the C advantage isn't that much in the vanguard as they're also a generation behind. Neither do their Large Escort frigates and "Frigate" cruisers have any staying power thanks to low durability, which is the key component of a vanguard ship. It's also a very poor fleet for peacetime. Basically, it seems to be built around the old paradigm that gave us the Miranda and Constellation, but modern combat has moved on.


I don't know these things. I need a list of technology by year, and in some cases what technology by what year depends on what year we want the ship in, so the problem is circular and there's no starting point. I can say that I would like T3 frigate subframes, something we haven't even started on, and T3 cruiser subframes, again, when we don't even have T2. I suppose a viable generalist could be made with T2 frigate subframes but I would have to do some tweaking to see if I can get D6 without T3.

2327 for the cruiser.
2319 to 2323 for the frigate was the date range I'd like, but the guy who does our research was looking at a later range.
2327 for the cruiser would be the tech deadline, 2328 the project start date. (All other dates I'm using in this discussion are project start dates).

T3 frigate subframes are possible for 2323, though that would involve either a new team or swapping out a team in the last year. I suppose swapping out can be tolerated if it's for meeting a deadline and not for efficiency. Likewise T3 cruiser subframes are possible for 2328 (not requiring any new teams or swapping). Allowing for both would definitely require at least one new team though.
 
We know nothing about the Horizon ships, Horizon planets, Horizon fleet bases, defenses, nothing. A tactical report that includes them will be useless and say nothing. We were barely able to get a useful Diplomatic Posture report! The level of detail here in the readiness report is multiple orders of magnitude beyond that. We simply don't have the information available.

But more Cardassians war tactics will also give diminishingly little extra information while also being boring because it's nothing new.

So useless and boring versus useless and new.
 
I think at some point we may have to say "the perfect is the enemy of the good," bite the bullet, and design the frigate as soon as we have a reasonable minimum of suitable techs. 2319, for instance. @SynchronizedWritersBlock is talking about Defense 6 for the frigate, for instance, and I'm not at all sure he should be trying that hard for it.

My reason for saying this is that we really do want to have at least ONE frigate class that is genuinely designed to function under the new combat engine, before we fight a high-stakes war under the new combat engine. Right now our 'war fleet' is built around a swarm of Miranda-As that cannot perform as planned in battle, due to low Science and Defense scores that didn't matter in combat when the ship statlines were written.

Delaying the frigate another four years to squeeze more performance out of it may not be a good tradeoff.

Notably, 2319 is not that far away, so it would hardly be a bad idea to update the frigate requirements now in order to start a design in 2319 or 2320.
Actually we aren't all that bad off with our current designs + the Kepler. A fleet of something like 2 Kepler, 2 Centaur-A, 1 Constellation-A for the skirmish line, 2 Renaissance, 1 Constitution-B 3 Miranda-A for the vanguard and 2 Excelsiors 1 Ambassador for the heavy metal would do perfectly fine. That would be a pretty good fit for the current combat system, far better than anyone else with a fleet with designs for the old system has. Miranda-As are fine for the vanguard (except for not being cheap enough to be truly expendable, but we aren't going to replace them anyway so the cost doesn't really matter anymore), they just suck for the skirmish line, but 3 out of those 8 classes are a reasonably good fit so it's not like it's a hole in our capabilities we have nothing to fill with.
 
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But more Cardassians war tactics will also give diminishingly little extra information while also being boring because it's nothing new.

So useless and boring versus useless and new.
Um. Having only been seriously following the quest for the last eight months or so, what do we know about Cardassian war tactics, is that knowledge still relevant, and how are you so sure that we won't get anything new?
 
Notably, 2319 is not that far away, so it would hardly be a bad idea to update the frigate requirements now in order to start a design in 2319 or 2320.
The sweeping tactical review would be a good idea for a 2319 design, as it will let us define how to use our existing ships in the new paradigm including things like Constellations as skirmishers, Keplers as fleet scouts, and so on.

2327 for the cruiser would be the tech deadline, 2328 the project start date. (All other dates I'm using in this discussion are project start dates).

T3 frigate subframes are possible for 2323, though that would involve either a new team or swapping out a team in the last year. I suppose swapping out can be tolerated if it's for meeting a deadline and not for efficiency. Likewise T3 cruiser subframes are possible for 2328 (not requiring any new teams or swapping). Allowing for both would definitely require at least one new team though.
I desperately need 2319 parts on the sheet to answer the years question. We're missing a small number that are crucial.
 
@Simon_Jester to add to what SWB said, we should make a habit of not ordering new ships until we're basically a year or two away from starting them. We don't even have a lot of tech on the sheet that will change final designs; stuff in the SDB is done with the tech we have available, not necessarily the stuff that will make it in the final designs. The best example would be T3 Sickbays, which will almost certainly be used on a general escort. Targeting Computers, Impulse Engines, Fuel Storage, and SIF will all be possibilities that could change a final design. Once we have stuff on the sheet, we can turn out fully tuned designs and thus estimate what we will need for an appropriate cost/stats. Most of the designs posted are basically proof of concept, giving us an idea of what is roughly possible and what our future fleet will look like.

As soon as the sheet is updated, expect a list of techs we want, followed by Nix estimating research time, and then we're good to go.
 
@Simon_Jester to add to what SWB said, we should make a habit of not ordering new ships until we're basically a year or two away from starting them. We don't even have a lot of tech on the sheet that will change final designs; stuff in the SDB is done with the tech we have available, not necessarily the stuff that will make it in the final designs. The best example would be T3 Sickbays, which will almost certainly be used on a general escort. Targeting Computers, Impulse Engines, Fuel Storage, and SIF will all be possibilities that could change a final design. Once we have stuff on the sheet, we can turn out fully tuned designs and thus estimate what we will need for an appropriate cost/stats. Most of the designs posted are basically proof of concept, giving us an idea of what is roughly possible and what our future fleet will look like.

As soon as the sheet is updated, expect a list of techs we want, followed by Nix estimating research time, and then we're good to go.
If the proof of concept designs are good enough, I'm all for actually building them, assuming they're based on parts that actually exist. Some of these ideas you've been throwing around for frigates sound pretty good to me; if you tell me they'll be ready to start detail design work in 2319, I'm all in favor of starting detail design work in 2319.
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships, (a gaeni tech-cruiser vs. two caitian swarmers)

[X][REPORT] Two-front war with the Horizon and the Cardassians
 
[X][ROLES] Update the Combat Escort requirements (+2 Militarisation)

[X][REPORT] Improving the Cardassian Readiness report

[X][WG] Preparedness Exercise - Tensions with a "Union" and their "Pact" subordinates have reached a boiling point. Frigates will patrol the frontiers in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa Sector, and locate, quantify, and track the computer-simulated incoming strikes. One UESPA Renaissance-class, one Seyek cruiser, and one Orion cruiser will act as Union/Pact hunter-killer forces in the SBZ, CBZ, and Ferasa areas respectively in order to gain tracking and interception experience. Ships: 1 UESPA Centaur-A, 1 UESPA Renaissance, 1 TSF Centaur-A, 2 Indorian Patrol Escorts, 2 Seyek frigates, 1 Seyek cruiser, 2 Caitian Modern Swarmers, 1 Apiata Forager, 1 Oberth[T'Mir], 2 Orion frigates, 1 Orion cruiser. Cost: 9pp.

Why are people voting Do Nothing?

I thought it was established that we had to update our "Combat Escort" requirements to match our prospective new Escort designs like the Flower?

It looks like there's a disconnect somewhere between discussion and votes...
 
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