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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X][CARGO] Mix of Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard expansion and assigning Starfleet general purpose shipyard berths, supplemented by Member yards like now

[X][PEACE] Place under Starfleet Tactical
-[X][STAR] A robust organizational charter in consultation with the Pacifists, including authorized mission types and the requirements for deployment on each. Organic ships.

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[X][SIZE] Should be larger, 12 battalions

[X][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)
 
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Nix said:
@OneirosTheWriter

Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)

This still doesn't make sense. Why are all the runabouts and shuttles needed upfront? Why anything temporary at all? Why can't we just increase yearly production of runabouts from the X needed now to X+Y to also cover the needs of the new force, perhaps for a pp cost?
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It simplifies the representation. For all the things that the system does model, there are areas that are largely abstracted.
 
Chaos Blade said:
If we go for peacekeepers, I think we should put them under Starfleet Tactical, any other options would have us compete with them for resources and transportation and that is a headache we should avoid.


I'd like a clarification of this:
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Amarkian Gendarmes
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Andorian Peacekeepers
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with MACOs (war-fighting capacity)

What do these options mean in detail? what effects do they have? and costs?
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I think from least armed to most armed: Andorian Peacekeepers < Caitian Frontier Police < Amarkian Gendarmes < MACO's. So basically how heavily armed we want them to be.
 
Nix said:
@OneirosTheWriter

Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)

This still doesn't make sense. Why are all the runabouts and shuttles needed upfront? Why anything temporary at all? Why can't we just increase yearly production of runabouts from the X needed now to X+Y to also cover the needs of the new force, perhaps for a pp cost?
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Because they need a 'big surge' in production to get established, way more than our annual production. We might be looking at 2X or 3X=X+Y.
 
[ ][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[ ][AUX] Surge supplemented by other Member yards

I think this looks good, but I am not altogether certain I understand it right. What I want to vote for would be:
1) Starfleet ramps up its production of auxiliary yards so that it can build enough cargo ships for its own use.
2) Right now we ask for the use of a few Member yards so we can fill the current gap quickly.

I would also like an independent peacekeeping force, but I don't quite understand what Organic Ships or Infrastructure are supposed to be. Googling it gets me stuff like Species 8472 Bioships, which is certainly not the intention.
 
Not sure about the logistics end, but I know what I want for peacekeepers.

[X][PEACE] Place under Starfleet Tactical
-[X][STAR] A robust organizational charter in consultation with the Pacifists, including authorized mission types and the requirements for deployment on each. Organic ships.
[X][SIZE] As Proposed, 9 battalions
[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[X][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)

I'm willing to bend on the gear. Conversely, I think if we reduce size to 3 battalions we might reduce the industrial load.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
That would be a fairly practical use for it.

Mind you, this all isn't happening immediately, of course. There's lead-time entailed here.
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Okay.

Also, will we have special Heavy Industry options in general?

Vote Ideas:

[ ][CARGO] Write in: Starfleet logistics, Starfleet risk
-[ ] Aim to have Starfleet's Border Zone / Combat Zone logistics 100% covered, and domestic logistics 50-75% covered by 2322.
-[ ] Build another four dedicated auxiliary berths and assign general purpose berths as necessary, with member yards used if there are an opening.

[ ][CARGO] Write in: A Self-supporting Fleet
-[ ] Aim to have Starfleet's Fleet Support loop logistics requirements fully covered, the Feeder loop 75% covered, and the Industrial loop 75% covered by 2322.
-[ ] Build another four dedicated auxiliary berths and assign general purpose berths as necessary, with member yards used if there are an opening.

As for the peacekeepers, I have no idea. However, we should go all in.

[ ][SIZE] Should be larger, 12 battalions
[ ][SUPPORT] Write-in: Metric Tonnes of Pennies
-[ ] Design a new Fast Transport class suitable for transporting small and bulk cargo, as well as people.
-[ ] Runabouts and Shuttles
-[ ] Use Sol's Heavy Industrial Complex for production
 
I'd actually suggest putting it under FDS so it has some political teeth. A new service won't have a lot of leeway in how they operate, FDS has usually done a damn good job and I trust their opinion on when and how 'peacekeeping forces' are warranted over bureaucrats at home.

FDS is much more suited to the moral ambiguity and realpolitik anyway.
 
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OneirosTheWriter said:
It simplifies the representation. For all the things that the system does model, there are areas that are largely abstracted.
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How is needing to recalculate the construction times of a bunch of ships simpler than a one time pp cost? My objection isn't that the rule is too abstract, it's that it's too concrete in the wrong way.
 
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[x][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[x][AUX] By itself

@OneirosTheWriter
I think part of why this turned into a shitstorm is that you and the player base seem to have very different impressions of the required scale of force needed for the mission.

A battalion is about enough to secure a few relief operation sites. For a planetary scale peacekeeping mission? 12 DIVISIONS might be enough to do one at a time. I'm looking at the proposed force size and seeing something that doesn't remotely have the dudes for serious peacekeeping in the modern sense.

The unit she's proposing can definitely handle securing the area for relief missions, but actual peacekeeping? Only if the average colony is a single medium size city.
 
Random Member said:
I think from least armed to most armed: Andorian Peacekeepers < Caitian Frontier Police < Amarkian Gendarmes < MACO's. So basically how heavily armed we want them to be.
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that is probably the case, but wanted confirmation.

additionally, different gear is best fitted for different types of missions, so quite frankly we should agree with which missions the SFPC will take, so we know what sort of gear they will need
Alternatively, I think we could ask to equip different battalions differently, basically we could have 1 MACO-like Batt, 3 Cait Pol batts, 3 Andorran Guard Batts and 2 Armakian Gendarme Batts, each specialized for different roles and what not...
 
[x][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[x][AUX] By itself

[x][PEACE] Suggest building it within the FDS
-[x][FDS] Dependent on Starfleet for delivery


[x][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police

[x][SIZE] As Proposed, 9 battalions

[x][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)
 
pheonix89 said:
[x][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[x][AUX] By itself

@OneirosTheWriter
I think part of why this turned into a shitstorm is that you and the player base seem to have very different impressions of the required scale of force needed for the mission.

A battalion is about enough to secure a few relief operation sites. For a planetary scale peacekeeping mission? 12 DIVISIONS might be enough to do one at a time. I'm looking at the proposed force size and seeing something that doesn't remotely have the dudes for serious peacekeeping in the modern sense.

The unit she's proposing can definitely handle securing the area for relief missions, but actual peacekeeping? Only if the average colony is a single medium size city.
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You assume this is a bug, not a feature.

Like goddamn people this is why I was saying, repeatedly, this isn't an army. It's not big enough to be one.

This is a glorified police force. They're going to secure critical areas and conduct patrols in urban centers. They're going to do what the Frontier Police did.
 
Iron Wolf said:
Husacar with the Seyek. Winterwind with the Caldonians. Odyssey being there for negotiating with the Caldonians. That's just in recent memory. You can go back a bit to Sam being explicitly called out as staving off a major flashpoint with the Seyek and Fiiral.
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And in all cases a consequence of Starfleet being the federal first responders, in all cases were there was more time to arrange matters Starfleet was the FDS' assisting and transporting agency.

OneirosTheWriter said:
"Block both the logistics and the peacekeepers," notes the President. "You know, I started off fairly well with your predecessor, Admiral Sousa, but things went sour after a time. I had hoped that with my own choice of Admiral that I might be able to get a better start, a more productive relationship."

"Have we been unproductive?

The President gesture to the padd that lays between you. "If this is your productive side, I'd hate to see you as an obstructionist. I've got a window where I want to achieve things I came to Sol III for. And here I am, tripped at the first hurdle by someone that by rights I ought to consider on my own side."
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... Those are dangerous words to speak to group that's supposed to be independent Mrs. President.

OneirosTheWriter said:
"I'm going to remind you that one of us was elected to our position, and the other is an appointee," says the President, tone dark and foreboding. "I may be a stranger to the 'Homo Sapiens Only Club' but the people of the Federation that you serve put me here."
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... Very dangerous words.

OneirosTheWriter said:
The President grimaces and waves a hand. "This meeting was where aimed to read you in. There was a consulting process planned. My team and I were busy preparing the plan so we didn't have something half-baked to hand you to cause yet another ruction for Starfleet brass to take to the other parties and undermine me again."
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Even just a head's up would have been nice. Just saying 'we are considering some reorganisation in Starfleet to expand its mandate' would've been a good start, even admitting you currently only have ideas or vague outlines would've been better.

But no, 'here, this is what we plan. Accept it' seems to have been the intention.

[X][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[X][AUX] By itself
--[X][AUX] Surge supplemented by other Member yards if that is insufficient may be considered.

Extra capacity is needed.

[X][PEACE] Suggest building it within the FDS
-[X][FDS] Dependent on Starfleet for delivery
-[X][FDS] Organic Ships for consideration, Starfleet based deployment capacity preferred.

Under the FDS for now anyway. If that doesn't work, I would consider making it an independent body.

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police

This would be light, but not stupid light equipment, given that we are generally expecting them to deploy in potentially hot zones.

[X][SIZE] Should be smaller, 3 battalions

Frankly, this would be the cadre to start actually implementing the Peacekeeper Corps anyway. No need to make it larger than a good trial size. Also, this highlights just how much Starfleet distrusts the idea.

[X][SUPPORT] Groundcars and Aerobus attachments (small industrial requirement)
-[X][Support] Shuttle craft and runabouts may be integrated later, but generally they would be unnecessary anyway.
 
[X][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's AuxiliaryShipyard production
-[X][AUX] By itself

[X][PEACE] Suggest an independent body
-[X][NEW] Organic Ships

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[X][SIZE] Should be smaller, 3 battalions
[X][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)

Erandil's plan seems good to me. I'd rather have the Peacekeepers as an independent organization than another thing we have to micromanage. Only thing I disagree with is that they should start smaller. Easier to iron out issues and fix them before expanding the organization than after.
 
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Iron Wolf said:
You assume this is a bug, not a feature.

Like goddamn people this is why I was saying, repeatedly, this isn't an army. It's not big enough to be one.

This is a glorified police force. They're going to secure critical areas and conduct patrols in urban centers. They're going to do what the Frontier Police did.
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Learn to read.

I said it was a miscommunication.

Not a bug. Not a feature. The QM and playerbase having a very different assumption of what a mission profile means.
 
pheonix89 said:
@OneirosTheWriter
I think part of why this turned into a shitstorm is that you and the player base seem to have very different impressions of the required scale of force needed for the mission.

A battalion is about enough to secure a few relief operation sites. For a planetary scale peacekeeping mission? 12 DIVISIONS might be enough to do one at a time. I'm looking at the proposed force size and seeing something that doesn't remotely have the dudes for serious peacekeeping in the modern sense.

The unit she's proposing can definitely handle securing the area for relief missions, but actual peacekeeping? Only if the average colony is a single medium size city.
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...well, during the Orion Syndicate campaign, you had a total of 12 batalions from the CFP and used it to cover every minor colony, so really, I'm not sure what went wrong with everyone's expectations?
 
[X][CARGO] Mix of Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard expansion and assigning Starfleet general purpose shipyard berths, supplemented by Member yards like now

I am willing to go with this. I was never willing to fight on this issue to the end, anyway.

[X][PEACE] Suggest an independent body
- Federation Peacekeeping Corps

Joke's on you N'Gir, I am perfectly happy with FDS taking this kerfuffle. Honesty dictates however, that since I was one of the people going for a third body that I go with this. And honestly, that would make me happy either way. We will still be able to coordinate, and this way both services will be able to focus more on what they do best. I was, and remain however, entirely opposed to this being a Starfleet solution. That said, I am not opposed in principls to peacekeepers existing, in general.


-[X][NEW] Organic Infrastructure
If we are going to make it a service, it's going to need its own infrastructure to have legs to stand on. I am willing to take that hit.

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
Since they are strictly speaking a peacekeeping force, I was most tempted to just go with Andorian style. But life can be nasty, and I think the Caitain model has acquitted itself well in Orion space. That's about as heavy as I would be willing to make these guys.

[X][SIZE] As Proposed, 9 battalions
I'd stick with this for starters, but I am open to changes.

[X][SUPPORT] Groundcars and Aerobus attachments (small industrial requirement)
Tied into infrastructure; this should be enough to get them started, and if the service feels like they need expanded support capabilities - i.e shuttles and what not, they can make them themselves. If their infrastructure is insufficient, well, they're going to have to negotiate. Will sell Constellation Hulls Cheap.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I am amused by the lack of bitter end opposition. One would expect given how heavily the other vote went that some people would be willing to die on this hill.
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I think you kind of underestimate the crowd that's against Starfleet peacekeepers, but isn't against the idea of peacekeeping force per se. If this was a binary yes/no choice, I'd be the first on that hill. Since it isn't, I am willing to work with it.
 
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Well that update did absolutely nothing to make me like cat president. She's being needless antagonistic and then blaming Starfleet for being obstructionist. Ah hell no.

[jk] Rally the explorer corps to run a Federation wide campaign to no confidence the cat.
 
[X][CARGO] Look to expand Starfleet's Auxiliary production through the use of general-purpose berths.

[X][PEACE] Place under Starfleet Tactical
-[X][STAR] A robust organizational charter in consultation with the Pacifists, including authorized mission types and the requirements for deployment on each. Organic ships.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I am amused by the lack of bitter end opposition. One would expect given how heavily the other vote went that some people would be willing to die on this hill.
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The fundamental idea was good, but the ideation process and the presentation were awful. This would have all gone of perfectly if we'd been brought in early. Coming out in favor of the ideas, now that she's working with us instead of presenting us with a Plan and we can work with her to make the whole thing better, significantly emphasizes our point about the problem being one of working with Starfleet.
 
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