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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
You DO realize that Sulu was scheduled to meet the President and three committees on these matters right? It was never planned as a unilateral decision without consultation.
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We know Sulu was scheduled to meet with the President and three committees. We don't know what was on the committees' agenda. It's possible that he was supposed to be discussing these matters then.

However, given that the Councillors he met believed he'd already been informed if not necessarily consulted, that seems unlikely, or they were expecting to strong arm him in going along.

Iron Wolf said:
This is like.

Wrong.
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Explain why.
 
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Iron Wolf said:
This is an overly political way of looking at things for the role we play. We can evaluate the implementation as proposed. Who proposes it should not matter.
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Question: Do you honestly that Stesk and N'Gir would propose the same implementation?

If no, then it absolutely matters because they're NOT doing the same thing.
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
N'Gir isn't trying to prevent our expert advice, and you are making shit up to try to justify that point of view. I will not stay silent on this.
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Then why the fuck did we only find out about it by freak luck well after debate started?

And why did the councilors react as though we were not supposed to have a clue about it?
 
Iron Wolf said:
Cool, but this is all out of touch with the reality of the quest.

Under what you're proposing we should not need ships patrolling home sectors to have P scores. Since we won't be rolling them. Since we don't do internal diplomacy. At all. Ever.

Not.

Once.

And we've certainly never, I dunno, stopped criminal organizations or put down rebellions with orbital strikes, that would be ridiculous, right T'Lorel?

T'Lore--

T'LOREL YOU POWER DOWN THAT PHASER ARRAY RIGHT NOW
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I do actually think this is a problem, and that Federation needs to address it at some point. I suppose I should have just left the "should not" in there.

To be clear, I am not ignoring the fact that captains step into diplomacy, or that they occasionally interfere with internal matters. Life is never that perfect. But I do think that if captain has to phaser targets from orbit to stop an internal problem somewhere, there has been a massive ultra-mega fuckup somewhere. For the sake of argument, I am not going to say "we need a comitte to vet this shit", but we need a comitte...


M'AM, STEP. AWAY. FROM. THE. CONSOLE.
 
pheonix89 said:
Then why the fuck did we only find out about it by freak luck well after debate started?

And why did the councilors react as though we were not supposed to have a clue about it?
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Because we found out early, because legislature agendas aren't supposed to be some partisan secret.

Again, we were scheduled to be consulted. Oneiros is probably writing that consultation right now. This isn't a law being debated in the chambers, it's a proposal that's being studied by committees.
 
pheonix89 said:
Question: Do you honestly that Stesk and N'Gir would propose the same implementation?

If no, then it absolutely matters because they're NOT doing the same thing.
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I could honestly see Stesk coming up with the same Peacekeeper structure, yes. I also, again, don't view it as particularly radical.

Like, realistically, I'd look at what they're proposing and evaluate it on its merits. I don't like N'Gir. I do like the peacekeeper concept.

This was a nice attempt at a gotcha, but like, I'm serious. It's good political advice to evaluate the judgement of the person, not their impossible-to-evaluate motivations.

Hazard said:
Explain why.
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Like, dude.

Read the updates!

Husacar with the Seyek. Winterwind with the Caldonians. Odyssey being there for negotiating with the Caldonians. That's just in recent memory. You can go back a bit to Sam being explicitly called out as staving off a major flashpoint with the Seyek and Fiiral.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Because we found out early, because legislature agendas aren't supposed to be some partisan secret.

Again, we were scheduled to be consulted. Oneiros is probably writing that consultation right now. This isn't a law being debated in the chambers, it's a proposal that's being studied by committees.
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Go reread the update.

At the very least SULU doesn't think this is how things are supposed to work.
 
Iron Wolf said:
Cool, but this is all out of touch with the reality of the quest.

Under what you're proposing we should not need ships patrolling home sectors to have P scores. Since we won't be rolling them. Since we don't do internal diplomacy. At all. Ever.

Not.

Once.

And we've certainly never, I dunno, stopped criminal organizations or put down rebellions with orbital strikes, that would be ridiculous, right T'Lorel?

T'Lore--

T'LOREL YOU POWER DOWN THAT PHASER ARRAY RIGHT NOW
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I think part of the problem, hardcore ideologues like the person you quoted asides, is that this vote wasn't well implemented. @OneirosTheWriter please do take this as constructive criticism, but this is a political matter, we got options that weren't wholly clear, for a post titled Politics pt.1 we got two options with a seemingly yes/no divide, but not quite:

[ ][PEACE] Go along with the deal
[ ][PEACE] Upset the apple cart

Here we have the peacekeeper options, we didn't get the option to buy for time to feel what other parties thought about it, nor about to actually poll Starfleet (and member forces that would be the ones donating the initial command structure to this endeavor) command to see if they had any insights on the ideas itself, or more seriously we didn't get either a noncommittal reply or conditional support, just go along with it or "upset the apple cart" that could range from a hard "No" to opening up negotiations of the details (some sort of conditional acceptance)

the other vote was clearer in its wording:

[ ][CARGO] Agree
[ ][CARGO] Avoid

but again lacked options.
For a segment called politics, I feel it is disappointingly dry. I understand giving options would add complexity to the QM and, @OneirosTheWriter I totally respect (even admire) the work you have done in this thread thus far. Titanic doesn't begin to describe your actions.

Anyway, just a little critique that will, hopefully, be constructive
 
pheonix89 said:
Go reread the update.

At the very least SULU doesn't think this is how things are supposed to work.
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Sulu is the guy who is talking to the head of an intelligence agency about spying oon his civilian government. I suppose now is the right time to call him out on that, because that was some Rogers-tier unacceptable bullshit on his part.

But ignoring that, I did read the update many many times, and are no point does it suggest that we weren't going to be consulted. So no, you're still wrong

e: The Hawks basically go "if you want to oppose this when you're consulted, we'll back you".
 
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[X][CARGO] Avoid
[X][PEACE] Upset the apple cart

"I can read between the lines just fine, Admiral," notes President N'Gir as she drops a padd on the table between you. The Presidential office has been cleared out, leaving just the two of you, the two most influential people out of almost a hundred billion across the Federation. Between the two of you, the wood-panelled room seems so paradoxically stifling, crushing down around you with every square foot of emptiness around you. "This," she says, finger jabbing at the padd, "This is your doing."

The comfortable armchair is no captain's chair, the President no Bird of Prey.

You tilt your head slightly. "May I ask what this is, Madam President?"

The President smiles sourly. "Councillor Sadek is doing the numbers. We thought we had them. Something changed."

"I believe the Hawks were drumming-"

"Don't you skulk with me, Admiral," snaps Arsharra N'Gir. Her eyes are flashing fire, her finger jabs out at you this time. "Look around, it's just you and me here. If you want to play hardball, then stand up and play."

Alright then.

You take in a breath, shedding the amiability. Old instincts come to the fore, the spine straightens, the brows furrow. This woman is the vested voice of the Federation people, the guardian of the constitution you swear to uphold, the one who holds the reins of the charter that guides your life. But you will speak truth and may the devil take the hindmost.

"The Amarkian Hawks came to speak to me, and together we rallied the votes to block," you reply. Suffice to say there is no ripple of shock from the person opposite you.

"Block both the logistics and the peacekeepers," notes the President. "You know, I started off fairly well with your predecessor, Admiral Sousa, but things went sour after a time. I had hoped that with my own choice of Admiral that I might be able to get a better start, a more productive relationship."

"Have we been unproductive?

The President gesture to the padd that lays between you. "If this is your productive side, I'd hate to see you as an obstructionist. I've got a window where I want to achieve things I came to Sol III for. And here I am, tripped at the first hurdle by someone that by rights I ought to consider on my own side."

"I'm not on a politician's side, no more than Admiral Sousa or Admiral Kahurangi were on the side of President sh'Arrath," you retort. "I am on the side of the Federation Constitution, the Starfleet Charter, and the people of the Federation."

"And what part of the people of the Federation cries out for Starfleet to muster little more than half of the spacelift needed to handle its own corpulent income and supply needs?" snaps the President. "What clause f the Constitution are you going to quote me to explain undercutting me on peacekeepers?"

Smothering the heat that flares behind your eyes takes a stern effort, but you manage it, and keep the calm in your voice. "Madam President, not protesting having major changes sprung on Starfleet without consultation would be disregarding my duty."

"I'm going to remind you that one of us was elected to our position, and the other is an appointee," says the President, tone dark and foreboding. "I may be a stranger to the 'Homo Sapiens Only Club' but the people of the Federation that you serve put me here."

"And you did not put me in my position to be a yes-man," you retort. "Or, if you did so, you made a poor study of my history when you chose me."

There is a crushingly long silence as the two of you regard each other in the room. In the end, the President breaks the silence. "I want to know if you intend to work with me. I expect you to resign if you can't."

"I can work with you," you reply. "And I will work with you. But I want there to be an emphasis on 'with'."

The President grimaces and waves a hand. "This meeting was where aimed to read you in. There was a consulting process planned. My team and I were busy preparing the plan so we didn't have something half-baked to hand you to cause yet another ruction for Starfleet brass to take to the other parties and undermine me again."

You give her a sharp look at that. "Madam President, your team isn't going to have to implement those plans. Without our experience, they're going to get anything in a row except other Councillors looking to attack."

President N'Gir falls silent again, taking time to pinch the bridge of her nose as if holding off a pounding headache. "Alright, let me lay this out. We in the Development faction have things we plan to achieve; things we are elected to achieve. Part of this is reducing the burden Starfleet poses on the member worlds."

"Compared to the benefit received-" you begin to object, but the President puts up a hand.

"I'm not a choir for you to preach to, so listen to me Admiral. In addition to Starfleet's normal supply shipping, your deep space construction draws down off member worlds, most notably from the two biggest contributors to the Development faction: Tellarites and Humans. I'm sure that Starfleet is just fine with the arrangement, because it costs you nothing. But I have a mandate to work at reducing that load. You may not agree with my target level, or you may have ways you think accomplish that goal better, but I'm going to make it happen in some variant. It's just a case of who I have to work with."

She lets you digest that for a moment, then continues. "I'm not surprise the Hawks were the ones to find out and spill."

That puts a frown across your face. "I'm not sure I take your meaning, Madame President," you say.

"The Amarkians have a vested interest in keeping their Gendarmes relevant. Councillors P'shirri and Shrr'mr would no doubt give me hell if the CFP weren't already tied into the SDB. Not to mention still recovering institutionally from Dawiar and Orion campaign losses. But no, I'm not surprised the Amarkians used you like that. And yes, they used you, Admiral Sulu."

"I would remind you, Madame President, that the scars of the Khitomer conspiracy run as deep within Starfleet as they do within the original four," you point out. "The role played by the MACOs that caused them to be divested from Starfleet and returned to-"

"-to the UE has left you requiring member world assets every time you want to move," interrupts the President. "Now, that suits the Amarkians, as I said, who want the justification. The Pacifists are deeply in favour of the mandatory multi-lateralism that causes. The Mercantilists are on my side, and the Expansionists didn't care and could be persuaded. As you apparently did with the Hawks. Now I'll have to pork-barrel through the nose to get this done without you."

"I can assure you, Madam President, I have no ambitions to undermining you, or political goals. I simply couldn't risk what I was being told."

The President closes her eyes for a moment and then fixes her gaze on you anew. "As President, this is my agenda, and I am going to get this done," she warns you. "I want to make this work through Starfleet. I want to make it work with you. But one way or another I'll get it done. Maybe it won't be a Starfleet group. Maybe I'll form a new third organ, maybe we'll attach it to the FDS. And I'm sure you'll just love the FDS getting mandated access to your shipyards so they can build the ships they'll need."

Well, getting a handy reminder that your own President was arguably a more immediate danger to you than the Cardassians was probably worth the conversation by itself, you thought to yourself.

"So tell me, Admiral Sulu. Are you able to work with me?"

===============================================

Logistics:

President N'Gir wants to reduce the ongoing and surge burden posted by Starfleet logistics and construction.
The Development faction is in favour, and will gain political power if they accomplish alongside Starfleet.
The Expansionists would prefer to keep the system as is to avoid polluting Starfleet's mission, and will gain political power if Development fail.

The ideal development is surging construction is establishing a surge of 6 Freighters, 10 Cargo Ships, and then having constant ongoing construction of 1 Freighter, 2 Cargo Ships.

[ ][CARGO] Bitter-end opposition (may require resignation)
[ ][CARGO] Leave it entirely up to the President
[ ][CARGO] Implement a system of compensation (rental of ships) to member worlds
-[ ][PAY] PP
-[ ][PAY] BR/SR
[ ][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[ ][AUX] By itself
-[ ][AUX] Surge supplemented by other Member yards
[ ][CARGO] Write in
(if you give me a eat-cake/have-cake write-in it will go badly)

-

President N'Gir wants to establish a force within Starfleet Tactical Command that will operate as a force able to handle peacekeeping missions. It would not be a war-fighting force, but would be intended to keep peace in troubled areas. Open warfighting capacity would still rely on member worlds providing forces like the Andorian Guard, UE MACOs, and similar forces.

Ideally, this force will cooperate closely with Starfleet Medical, and Starfleet Engineering in order to provide effective disaster relief in insecure scenarios. The desired force strength would be approximately 9 battalions, in strength, most likely forward positioned, and not based upon Sol III.

It is hoped that they would be able to gear up or gear down to provide equivalent force levels to either the Andorian Peacekeepers, or the Caitian Frontier Police as per requirements.

[ ][PEACE] Bitter-end opposition (May require resignation)
[ ][PEACE] Suggest building it within the FDS
-[ ][FDS] Dependent on Starfleet for delivery
-[ ][FDS] Dependent on Member Worlds for delivery
-[ ][FDS] Organic Ships
[ ][PEACE] Suggest an independent body
-[ ][NEW] Organic Ships
(Operates their own transports/passenger ships provided by other yards)
-[ ][NEW] Organic Infrastructure
(Operates their own organic shipyard to make transports/ships)
-[ ][NEW] Write-in suggestion
[ ][PEACE] Place under Starfleet Tactical
-[ ][STAR] Write-in details of preferred arrangement

(Following votes will be invalidated by Bitter End Opposition)

[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Amarkian Gendarmes
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Andorian Peacekeepers
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with MACOs (war-fighting capacity)

[ ][SIZE] Should be smaller, 3 battalions
[ ][SIZE] As Proposed, 9 battalions
[ ][SIZE] Should be larger, 12 battalions
[ ][SIZE] Should be write-in

[ ][SUPPORT] Minimal organic assets (no industrial requirement)
[ ][SUPPORT] Groundcars and Aerobus attachments (small industrial requirement)
[ ][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)
[ ][SUPPORT] Write-in
 
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[X][CARGO] Mix of Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard expansion and assigning Starfleet general purpose shipyard berths, supplemented by Member yards like now
 
If we go for peacekeepers, I think we should put them under Starfleet Tactical, any other options would have us compete with them for resources and transportation and that is a headache we should avoid.


I'd like a clarification of this:
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Amarkian Gendarmes
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with Andorian Peacekeepers
[ ][GEAR] Should be more in line with MACOs (war-fighting capacity)

What do these options mean in detail? what effects do they have? and costs?
 
You know, for a Development president N'Gir seems to be strangely uninterested in development.

Her go-to plan is always appropriating existing production capacity, not building more.
 
Lol remember when I said the Amarkians were playing us for nationalistic reasons and we all kinda breezed by that too?


The Amarkians played us like a damn fiiiiiiddllleeeeeeee
 
[X][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[X][AUX] By itself
I'd rather we keep regular berths for regular production/repair.

[X][PEACE] Place under Starfleet Tactical
More and more, I'm convinced by @Iron Wolf. If this is going to happen, bring it under our roof, where we have the most control over training and implementation.

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police

[X][SUPPORT] Groundcars and Aerobus attachments (small industrial requirement)
I'm amused at the image of peacekeepers going around in Argos.
 
Iron Wolf said:
Lol remember when I said the Amarkians were playing us for nationalistic reasons and we all kinda breezed by that too?


The Amarkians played us like a damn fiiiiiiddllleeeeeeee
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It was mentioned a few times in the discussion why the Amarki didn't want the Peacekeepers. We knew that the relevance of their own Gendarmes played an important role for their representatives.
 
@OneirosTheWriter

Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)

This still doesn't make sense. Why are all the runabouts and shuttles needed upfront? Why anything temporary at all? Why can't we just increase yearly production of runabouts from the X needed now to X+Y to also cover the needs of the new force, perhaps for a pp cost?
 
[X][CARGO] Look to heavily expand Starfleet's Auxiliary Shipyard production
-[X][AUX] By itself

[X][PEACE] Suggest an independent body
-[X][NEW] Organic Ships

[X][GEAR] Should be more in line with Caitian Frontier Police
[X][SIZE] Should be larger, 12 battalions
[X][SUPPORT] Runabouts and shuttles (will require temporary access to Starfleet Shipyard Industrial Command resources, causing some delay)


I have to admit that I at least are happy since that is more or less exactly what I wanted to see ;-). I was always one of the proponents of expanding our auxiliary infrastructure and still think that this is a smart idea though I don't think the other options are that bad either.

And in regards to the peacekeepers - adding it to the FDS is somewhat tempting but I still prefer being it an independent organisation.



OneirosTheWriter said:
-[ ][NEW] Organic Ships
-[ ][NEW] Organic Infrastructure
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What exactly do you mean with that?


Also here is the summary of the troops from the Orion campaign which might be useful for teh gear vote.

OneirosTheWriter said:
[ ][COPS] Draw on Andorian Guard's Peacekeepers. Police first, combat is a much lower priority. Despite this, an Andorian is always dangerous in a scrap. (1 Influence, reduces Syndicate event rate, vulnerable to be disabled by casualties from Syndicate)
[ ][COPS] Draw on the Caitian Frontier Police force. These people keep order on the Caitian border worlds and even saw some action against the Dawiar. Full-size phaser pistols and light armour for protection are carried standard. (1 Influence, +1 Militarisation, reduce Syndicate event rate, more resilient to casualties)
[ ][COPS] Draw on the Amarkian Gendarmes. Deploying with full scale phaser rifles and body armour, these Amarki can move smoothly between investigating a break-in to storming a bunker. (2 Influence, +2 Militarisation, reduce Syndicate event rate, far greater resilience to casualties)
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