Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
... are you teenager?
I trust friends to consider my best interests, but act in their own. There's a balance there for sure, but I chiefly do not expect my friends to act against their own interests for the sake of mine. For one, if I did expect that, I would be automatically failing my own obligation to them, or I would be a hypocrite.
I think bringing Han Jian's group to the vent at this time risks Su Ling and Li Suyin's interests without commensurate risks on the other side, while they are the poorer party in the first place. It's very clearly putting the interests of one group ahead of the other.
This is completely correct. And screw helping friends or family dispose of a corpse. They get a sympathetic ear and a phone call to the police from me. Even aside from potential legal risk to myself for 'helping' them, a person is literally deceased. That takes priority over a relationship's bruised ego. I don't consider myself to be a poor friend or family member, but I'm not helping you get away with murder. Or worse, pointlessly implicating myself and worsening your prospects of acquittal in the case of misleading circumstance.
... What? I'm not even sure what that's referring to, but it's really not good debating practice in any situation.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
He's pissed rivers is losing.
From what I can remember the discussion back then was generally fairly similar to the one right now. We wanted to merge the groups with a view to sharing the vent (though I don't think we really appreciated how valuable it was, or how few inner sect places there were), but wanted Su Ling and Li Suyin to get something out of it as well, in this case training and a further level of protection from Huang Da. And yes we also wanted the groups to merge for everyone's benefit. We decided to test the waters without telling Han Jian's group about the vent because it wasn't our secret and to see if the relationship truly could work to everyone's benefit.
A few of us wanted to explicilty tell Su Ling and Suyin we were doing this with a view to sharing the vent eventually (after a few successful sessions in my own view), but I'm not sure it ever got written into the vote.
Then Fan Yu and Xiulan were total assholes and made Suyin's issues worse when she was already badly off despite us rolling a perfect social roll. They were also assholes to Su Ling but she had the experience to take it better.
It's why I'd like to return to that strategy after our talk with Xiulan, rather than go all in on the sale of the vent right now. We could maybe hint to Han Jian about the resources potentially waiting at the end without laying out how valuable they are. Suyin's in a worse place both mentally and resource wise right now, and some outside contact would be good for her. So long as it's without them obviously being nice only to get her resources. If we get the groups to at least respect each other I'll be a lot more comfortable proceeding with any sort of plan to share the vent (selling or friendship based).
Oh ffs stop being so doom and gloom. I believe we can still save the Han Jian social link if we do it next turn, and the idea that you can save the social link and merge the groups in one easy vote with no consequences is blindingly optimistic.
Frankly I don't think you appreciate just how much benifit social actions bring us and are being far to willing to discard significant long term gains due to relatively small short term opportunity costs. Maintaining our link with Han Jian's group is giving us the equivilent of 3/4 to 3/5 of an elders training each week, plus the battle experience giving us a constant input of skills training we wouldn't get just cultivating physical or arts on our own wouldn't get us. Imagine how many missions of sect points we'd need to get similar benifits (probably the equivilent of training from an inner sect desciple every week).
Of course that's going to require putting in some effort in terms of actions to retain.
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- Location
- United States of America
I hope not, I'm the creator and while I'm sad, I appreciate the massive amount of discussion and hashing out that came out of my plan as it allowed us to discuss the Han Jian social link and determine our various positions about the vent. I like my plan, but it did a worthy goal of promoting a ton of discussion, and so I'm happy about that. May the best plan win.
Heh did suyin and lingqi swapped hair styles?
- Location
- England
[X][stat] Dexterity
[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
We won't lose training with them for a while, probably not before the inner sect quest. Momentum will carry that forward. They just won't be allies who share stuff with us and we might lean on in a fight if it breaks out. Our relationship with Xiulan will keep that going.
And no, it won't be worth more actions in the future. We need to get back into he swing of at least four cultivation actions a turn.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Yep, on social heavy rounds we had four virtual cultivation action via elders, on cultivation heavy rounds we had five. With six action a turn, we can only take one non-cultivation action a turn and match what we were getting with teachers.
I'm really getting tired of this attitude from the thread about how we must constantly sacrifce social because otherwise our cultivation will wither and die.
You know that advice we're constantly quoting about building up a good foundation is essential truly succeed as a cultivator?
That doesn't only apply to pure cultivation actions. A lot of our social action are aimed at significcantly improving our position for better, more effective future cultivation. The tokens could give us long term bonuses, helping Li Suyin will hopefully get us long term access to free healing, as well as the theoretical bonuses her scholarly talents provide in dice terms. Su Ling's action on hunting could provide a way to combine small and medium ingredient gathering missionss into a single action, freeing up more actions overall. Xiulan has given us access to a tier of talisman I doubt we'd have thought to commission. And so on and so on. Social is really damn OP in the long run.
Sacrificing a small number of pure cultivation actions now, when our position is realtively secure to significantly improve our base aspects and the dice available for future cultivation over many, many turns will add up to a much greater overall level of efficency in the long run.
Yes, Elder Su expressed a level of worry about our talent when we slowed down for a week. But she also accepted our explanation that we needed to finish some things in order to complete our next big push. And that was long before we managed to double breakthrough in such a short amount of time. No one is going to doubt our talent now.
This is standard Xianxia stuff, accepting a small trade off in current strength for greater power in the long run is good practice.
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TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Yes. And we've made that trade off for a couple weeks now. It's only a sacrifice and trade off if... well, we use it to setup so we can cultivate. Otherwise it's just habit, and we are sabotaging ourselves.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There are a few caveats to this
The first, and biggest, is that the number of arts it is meaningful to have actually decreases the more we learn. Actions and qi are a finite resource which combat arts consume. Adding arts then, hits decreasing returns hard provided they are not things like passive effects and scene-long buffs.
Even if we could learn a million arts, the number we can use in battle is actually probably still going to be 3-4. The advantage of more arts then is versatility. This is most useful in arts we can equip only when we need them, rather than core combat skills. Having an 'anti-element' art, or counter-melee art for example, would be very useful since we could equip it only when we know we're going up against someone specializing in a given element. A second movement art stands out here since we could use it only against those we know to have speed tricks, potentially staying further ahead.
The other benefit of more arts is having passive abilities. Here these do stack and don't cost a thing. Often the passive buffs are every bit as good as having active skills in and of themselves.
Let's look at the gain on each art leveling up. Notably, not all arts consumed an extra meridian on level-up. In these cases, there's no cost (besides training) to increasing the art. I believe this is correct on meridian usage.
SCS 1 (Meridian used)
-Increases user's speed by 3
-Increases user's initiative by 2
-Add one dice to all stealth rolls
-Speed and initiative bonuses increase by two in low light
-Stealth bonus becomes auto success in darkness
-User adds two dice to their first offensive clash pool if attacking first
SCS 1>2 (meridian used)
Passive Effects
-Increases user's speed by an additional 1
-Increases user's initiative by an additional 1
-Speed and initiative bonuses increase by an additional 1 in darkness
-User gains a one die bonus to physical defense in darkness
FVM 1 (2 meridians used)
-Adds one bonus die to all music based expression rolls
-Adds two bonus dice to all perception rolls
-User receives no penalties for acting in low light or darkness
-Expression is used as Mastery when using this art(does not receive the previous passive bonus when used this way)
FVM 1>2 (no additional meridians used)
-Adds 1 additional bonus dice to all perception rolls
-User receives one bonus die on defense against sound based techniques
ZB 1 (1 meridian used)
-Provides one additional dice to all projectile weapon attacks.
-Provides one additional dice to defense against projectile attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within ten meters by one
ZB 1>2 (no meridian used)
-Provides 1 extra additional dice to all projectile weapon attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within thirty meters by one one (+20 meters)
-Increases maximum range of all projectiles to twenty meters if less (+10 meters)
ZB3 2>3 (meridian used)
-Provides 1 extra additional dice to defense against projectile attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within forty meters by one (+10 meters)
-Increases maximum range of all projectiles to twenty five meters if less (+5 meters)
-Increases user's speed by 3
-Increases user's initiative by 2
-Add one dice to all stealth rolls
-Speed and initiative bonuses increase by two in low light
-Stealth bonus becomes auto success in darkness
-User adds two dice to their first offensive clash pool if attacking first
SCS 1>2 (meridian used)
Passive Effects
-Increases user's speed by an additional 1
-Increases user's initiative by an additional 1
-Speed and initiative bonuses increase by an additional 1 in darkness
-User gains a one die bonus to physical defense in darkness
FVM 1 (2 meridians used)
-Adds one bonus die to all music based expression rolls
-Adds two bonus dice to all perception rolls
-User receives no penalties for acting in low light or darkness
-Expression is used as Mastery when using this art(does not receive the previous passive bonus when used this way)
FVM 1>2 (no additional meridians used)
-Adds 1 additional bonus dice to all perception rolls
-User receives one bonus die on defense against sound based techniques
ZB 1 (1 meridian used)
-Provides one additional dice to all projectile weapon attacks.
-Provides one additional dice to defense against projectile attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within ten meters by one
ZB 1>2 (no meridian used)
-Provides 1 extra additional dice to all projectile weapon attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within thirty meters by one one (+20 meters)
-Increases maximum range of all projectiles to twenty meters if less (+10 meters)
ZB3 2>3 (meridian used)
-Provides 1 extra additional dice to defense against projectile attacks.
-Increases the initiative of the user and all allies within forty meters by one (+10 meters)
-Increases maximum range of all projectiles to twenty five meters if less (+5 meters)
In this case, assuming we can't spend actions/qi on a new art, investing beyond the first meridian investment has cost us...
+1 defense against projectiles, +25% increase in a buff range, and a +20% increase in weapon range for ZB
+1 speed, +1 initiative, +1 to both in darkness (over 2 we get in low light) +1 defense in darkness for SCS
Notably, these are dramatically weaker than what we gained for investing in the first meridian (FVM is an odd-ball since it cost little to get the first). Better arts (SCS, FVM) tended to give us more on the first try. (immunity to darkness which is a strategic advantage worth a meridian by itself really) and a hefty speed/initiative bonus with no conditions.
In this case, assuming we're unlikely to have the chance to use every skill we learn (and increasingly less so the more skills we learn) it makes sense to skip mastery on many arts we get to the point where they consume an additional meridian. Consider ZB3 vs having an additional ZB2, both in passives and actives.
Now, there are some caveats. FVM synergizes with itself exceedingly well, to the point that additional arts increase the value of every measure. SCS is a movement skill, which is a core competency and may likely have a lot of exceedingly useful abilities later on. Both of these are also high level arts we won't be able to match. They should be mastered. Mastery of the right tier art also seems to grant bonuses on learning the full thing and breaking through, but this is likely one extra die or so (albeit one we keep on ditching the art).
What I'd suggest is that, if we're choosing between low ranked arts (most of the first floor) we default to training only to the point that the next level will cost a second meridian. Going beyond this should be a question of what we expect to gain actively and if we want to push for a higher ranked version (which we already have) that requires the prerequisite. This will likely provide a number of core utilities that rely on dice pools (and thus will keep pace with us) and maximizing passive benefits/merdian. Going further will both take longer action-wise and provide less benefit in absolute terms.
@yrsillar Do we need to equip the highest level of every art we have? Or could we, say, grab meridians for only ZB2 and not waste the slot on the third level? Is there any significant disadvantage to studying half an art and equipping it with no intention of ever mastering it beyond not getting the last level's benefits?
The big hold-ups right now have been breaking through early and that a lot of mid/long term plans are dependent on what AS 5 does (making the pet slot permanent or not) and how that works out with other stuff (if not, we need to get EPC to the point of getting a slot or invest more in direct violence).
This means that a lot of things should be put on hold until AS5 happens, after which we can readjust.
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We haven't made that trade off at all to be frank.
Last week we had two pure social actions, all the rest included cultivation, including our major breakthrough. 4/6 actions devoted to cultivation.
We only had one pure social and 4 cultivation actions (of a total 5 actions) the prior week. 4/5 actions devoted to cultivation.
These are not weeks you can truly say we've gone particularly light on cultivation.
Edit: Removed an unrelated argument and fixed a couple of grammar errors.
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- Location
- Fabulously Rainbow Ireland
And I don't think that it will go as badly as people keep saying it will.
Fan Yu and GU Xiulan did, Han Jian and Han Fang got on okaybwith them even if Fang was "wary". Su Ling didn't really care about the "bullying" since she got her sword lessons and Suyin simply became "withdrawn" which we could have dealt with by picking options to socialise with her to cheer her up and/or asked Xiukan to stop being a bitch.
That person is as hopelessly optimistic as me and the rest of the "share the vent" voters are painted as.
People keep saying it was a "disaster" but that was just clashing personalities. We passed the initial roll so I very much doubt we'd have to keep doing one every time.
We also didn't have our improved social stats and the +2 bonus from our makeup and the dress back then.
Then why aren't you voting for [] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal?
Then vote plan Social Animal! Show Xiulan how determined Venom Suyin is to not be a burden anymore!
No he's being realistic, people won't seriously vote to repair it, they aren't willing to dedicate the amount of actions needed.
How do you think we got here in the first place? A lot of people here seem to consider Han Jian as just a bland nice guy that they don't really care about that much. Hence why his social actions till now have gotten no votes since we keep going for Meizhen and Suyin et al plus cultivation once we got more social links.
I like him but I have to face the truth, a lot of others don't.
Actually. more than half of the voters are(or were) voting for a plan that has a Han Jian action in it. But those votes are split between River and Social Animal.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Again, with teachers we were effectively getting four cultivation actions on our slow weeks, and five on our normal ones. So yes, last week was a slow cultivation week. The week thirteen with five cultivation actions was a normal one.
And we're going to have to start doing job board quests every week to earn enough stones for the drugs we need.
You are literally going over well trod ground where we've actually spitballed how demanding our schedule will be.
Because it is the worst plan of the possible alternatives.Then why aren't you voting for [] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal?
And even if the plan wasn't simply just bad, you being this obnoxious would never make me vote for the "Social Animal" plan.
Was rereading back through some of the story posts. Some pretty funny throwaways given information we know now. But this line reminded me of poor @FixerUpper's investment in medicine. Someday, we will get our medicine dot.
(I wonder if CFWA trains it.)
Thanatanos
PvP Lover, Assasin Player
[X] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal