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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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1986ctcel said:
We aren't betraying the oath! How long will it take to get that through your head?
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How about you try actually reading what you are replying to?

I explicitly addressed separate issues in that post in a clear and concise manner. You skimmed it and made a strawman and an insult.

The latest version of the vote currently in the running is to try and plug at it at making them friends, which I stated is perfectly fine approach.

I disagreed with the claims we need to urgently hurry it up "or else". And I explicitly addressed some posts from earlier where people made the claim that we are free to share it unilaterally.
I am well aware that the latest version of the vote is to ask permission and not to share it unilaterally (as can be seen by me explicitly addressing it).
 
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Here's the thing. Those guys gotta start getting along. Inevitably, we're going to go to the inner sect, meaning that Li Suyin and Su Ling can't rely on us anymore. They'd be significantly better off with the protection of second stage cultivators, especially given that Su Ling is demihuman and thus probably going to get into mountains of deep shit, as she has already done.

Also, seriously sect what the fuck is wrong with you letting your disciples gouge out each others eyes. God damn.

Also, when everything is less on fire, we gotta take time out of our day to steal all of their shit. Hopefully after we learn to break formations.
 
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runeblue360 said:
Here's the thing. Those guys gotta start getting along. Inevitably, we're going to go to the inner sect, meaning that Li Suyin and Su Ling can't rely on us anymore. They'd be significantly better off with the protection of second stage cultivators, especially given that Su Ling is demihuman and thus probably going to get into mountains of deep shit, as she has already done.
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Making ALL KINDS of assumptions there.

1. They do not HAVE to get along. Some people are just incompatible and that is just life.

2. You are assuming all our friends will fail to enter the inner sect. Jian was explicitly in those invented to Cai's meeting because despite what it seems he is not a pushover, he had a decent chance. Li and Su also have a decent chance with their access to the vent.
Particularly Li because she can get in through the production side of things.

3. Jian's team doesn't want to protect them nor help them.

4. Even if they don't get into inner sect they could still protect themselves effectively as they pull ahead in their training.
 
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mrttao said:
1. They do not HAVE to get along. Some people are just incompatible and that is just life.
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I meant as a pact of mutual assistence.

mrttao said:
2. You are assuming all our friends will fail to enter the inner sect. Jian was explicitly in those invented to Cai's meeting because despite what it seems he is not a pushover, he had a decent chance. Li and Su also have a decent chance with their access to the vent.
Particularly Li because she can get in through the production side of things.
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Cai, Huang, Kang, Bai, Sun, Ji, Lu and Ling Qi.

No, most of them probably can't. An uphill climb at barest minimum. We already know Han Jian hasn't the talent and most of his strength comes from his friends.

mrttao said:
3. Jian's team doesn't want to protect them nor help them.
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Yes, that would be why I can them to be allies, so they have a reason to.

mrttao said:
4. Even if they don't get into inner sect they could still protect themselves effectively as they pull ahead in their training.
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And if they don't? If they get ganged up on?
 
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Arkeus said:
Basically, I'm thinking it's very unlikely sharing the vent is not going to betray Su Ling's future.
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If Su Ling can only rely on the vent to get a leg up, she's... probably not going to make it. I kind of find Kipeci's rabid hatred funny of her funny, but he's not wrong when he says that Su Ling's problems probably have a lot to do with Su Ling. I can see far more ways that she will succeed with people helping her, then her trying to go it alone. Yes, she's justified in her cynicism, but a cynical facade and a whole lotta attitude will only get her so far.

The only reason we have the Argent Vent in the first place is because we all pooled our efforts together and found the damn thing. Given how Su Ling can't read I think it likely that her route to power isn't constantly cultivating, it's probably finding good stuff and taking advantage it. In a group she can hunt bigger spirit beasts, search through more inhospitable areas and not get beaten up in the street as people have realize she's been adopted by one of the 'main' factions. She has a lot to offer, but similarly, so does Han Jian.

Frankly, Su Ling is probably of more use than Fan Yu who lacks any stand-out attributes at all. He's not as talented or stealthy as we are, not as inspiring as Han Jian, not as socially savvy as Gu Xiulan, not as strong as Fang and can't track or heal. If anyone's starting to become dead weight, it's him.

We should probably try to find a treasure of equal value to the argent vent if we want to remain competitive with Ji Rong who has protagonist-level luck (as opposed to we who have quest-level luck).
 
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Honestly they don't need to get along. They could just have a pure business deal of selling to location of the spring for resources. Su Ling and Li Suyin are kinda cut off from getting pills and stuff and they are pretty focused on getting revenge. So I think they would be up for selling the location to someone trustworthy that wouldn't steal the spring from them and since Ling Qi can vouch for Han Jian it would be a good deal for them.
 
[X] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal
-[X] 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir, Argent Elixir
-[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
--[X] Also ask if she would like a introduction to Xuilan.
-[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
--[X] Ask Su Ling and Li Suyin prior, and if they agree discuss trading access to a high quality Spirit Stone and Argent Soul vent in exchange for resources/talismans/training and being cordial to those who found it. Make it clear we don't need a cut.
--[X] Cultivate Forgotten Vale Melody
-[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
--[X] If Su Ling and Li Suyin okayed it, tell him they found a vent, and are up for making a deal to share it's use. If he's interested, arrange the meeting.
-[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
--[X] If the above went well, bring Su Ling and Li Suyin.
--[X] Cultivate Crescent Sable Step
-[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
-[X] Cultivate on your own
--[X] Physical
 
runeblue360 said:
Cai, Huang, Kang, Bai, Sun, Ji, Lu and Ling Qi.
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Who is lu?
kang and huang are jian's peers. They do not vastly outstrip them.

The big ones I think are:
Cai - way ahead, top family arts
Bai - way ahead, top family arts
Sun - way ahead, top family arts
Ji rong - ridiculous talent
Ling Qi - ridiculous talent

That leaves 3 open slots. And that is just in the fighting side.
there are also 8 crafting slots and I am sure Li would get one. (although with the way she is going she might make it in combat too)
runeblue360 said:
Yes, that would be why I can them to be allies, so they have a reason to.
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That is circular logic.
Want to protect them = be their allies
You want them to be allies so they would want to be their allies?

And again. Jian's group does not WANT to be their allies. So, how exactly do you think we can overcome this dislike?
runeblue360 said:
And if they don't? If they get ganged up on?
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Ganged up by whom? the losers who didn't make it into inner sect? then they would bitchslap all of them at once.

Because even if they cannot beat the top 8, after a year with the argent vent and our aid they should be pretty beefy.
 
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Lacrimosa said:
Honestly they don't need to get along. They could just have a pure business deal of selling to location of the spring for resources. Su Ling and Li Suyin are kinda cut off from getting pills and stuff and they are pretty focused on getting revenge. So I think they would be up for selling the location to someone trustworthy that wouldn't steal the spring from them and since Ling Qi can vouch for Han Jian it would be a good deal for them.
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1. Can Jian's group afford this?
2. Can they be trusted to regularly pay such huge sums to people they already dislike instead of doing something underhanded... or simply not paying and using it on the sly once they have acquired the info?
3. If they can't afford it, how upset would they be with us? enough to spy to try to acquire the location anyways?

I am sure Jian is a really nice guy.
But at the end of the day he still needs to listen to his team, some of which are not so nice and probably going to push the idea of just using the vent without paying.

The safest thing, I think, would be to arrange a lump sum payment. Of course this also suffers from risk of lu and su being robbed due to having too much wealth with them

I am not saying it is entirely off the table. But it is not as simple and easy as some people make it out to be.
We need to find out exactly how rich Jian's team is. We need to work a bit more getting the groups to trust each other.
This is a long term project at best, and rushing it would explode in our face
 
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1986ctcel said:
............she can get in next year hell does she even want to? It's her decision to make on whether to share the vent not ours so if she's willing to accept that risk I don't see why we shouldn't respect her decision.
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You are perfectly right, and it doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying.
runeblue360 said:
Here's the thing. Those guys gotta start getting along. Inevitably, we're going to go to the inner sect, meaning that Li Suyin and Su Ling can't rely on us anymore. They'd be significantly better off with the protection of second stage cultivators, especially given that Su Ling is demihuman and thus probably going to get into mountains of deep shit, as she has already done.
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FixerUpper said:
If Su Ling can only rely on the vent to get a leg up, she's... probably not going to make it. I kind of find Kipeci's rabid hatred funny of her funny, but he's not wrong when he says that Su Ling's problems probably have a lot to do with Su Ling. I can see far more ways that she will succeed with people helping her, then her trying to go it alone. Yes, she's justified in her cynicism, but a cynical facade and a whole lotta attitude will only get her so far.

The only reason we have the Argent Vent in the first place is because we all pooled our efforts together and found the damn thing. Given how Su Ling can't read I think it likely that her route to power isn't constantly cultivating, it's probably finding good stuff and taking advantage it. In a group she can hunt bigger spirit beasts, search through more inhospitable areas and not get beaten up in the street as people have realize she's been adopted by one of the 'main' factions. She has a lot to offer, but similarly, so does Han Jian.
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I consider Li Suyin a shoe-in for the inner sect. She will almost certainly get in via the production side. Her progress is incredibly quick and she is now determined. I would even say she might have a shot at the combat side, but production side is a near certainty. Likewise, I'd consider Su Ling's chance higher than Han Jian's, Han Fang and Gu Xiulan, and much higher than Fan Yu. I think she can read now, and that she is progressing extremely quickly too.

However, I believe that having Han Jian and co around will slow her progress. His group will notice her, and they will do the opposite of helping her. She's a threat to them, and will be assessed as such. Ling Qi is also a threat, but a friendly one, and one they cannot do much about. Su Ling is much more vulnerable. Given the vent was gotten thanks, in part, to her, I consider it dick move to merge the groups for it.

It's not that her only advantage is the vent, it's that it's not only something she has and they don't, it's not only their current home, but she is going to cultivate there every week and having them also cultivate there means they will see her. If I am right about her potential, she will go from "Ling Qi's pet" to "A threat".
 
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mrttao said:
The big ones I think are:
Cai - way ahead, top family arts
Bai - way ahead, top family arts
Sun - way ahead, top family arts
Ji rong - ridiculous talent
Ling Qi - ridiculous talent
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Should be something like:

Ji rong - ridiculous talent
Ling Qi - good talent

It burns me, but it looks like Ji Rong is basically "[] Prisoner" choice from character creation. Scarred. Killed cultivation adept when he was still mortal. It means, that he explicitely have more talent than Ling Qi.

(sigh) Irrational and petty, but I dislike him just for that.


Heh, if Ji rong is "[] Prisoner" and Link Qi is "[] Street Rat", I wonder if there are more characters like that. For example the "[] Soldier" is, I think, relatively easy to spot.
 
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DiceOfStupidity said:
Heh, if Ji rong is "[] Prisoner" and Link Qi is "[] Street Rat", I wonder if there are more characters like that. For example the "[] Soldier" is, I think, relatively easy to spot.
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Li Suyin is a mix of 'Scholar' and 'Artisan', Gan Guangli is 'Soldier', Han Jian is 'High Noble'. Huang Da is 'significant enemy' from Prisoner's chargen. They all have some twists to them though.

Incidentally, I want to talk to Gan Guangli, as I think he also has high chance of getting to inner sect and being on good term now will pay off if he gets there.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
Should be something like:

Ji rong - ridiculous talent
Ling Qi - good talent
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Ling Qi is still ridiculous talent, just slightly less ridiculous than Ji Rong

Ji rong took 11 weeks to do what we did in 13 weeks. The typical noble here would take 3-4 years to do that.
DiceOfStupidity said:
It burns me, but it looks like Ji Rong is basically "[] Prisoner" choice from character creation. Scarred. Killed cultivation adept when he was still mortal. It means, that he explicitely have more talent than Ling Qi.
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Yes, he is the prisoner choice.
I knew that for a while now.
Arkeus said:
Li Suyin is a mix of 'Scholar' and 'Artisan', Gan Guangli is 'Soldier', Han Jian is 'High Noble'. Huang Da is 'significant enemy' from Prisoner's chargen. They all have some twists to them though.
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Oh, I bet the cultivator Ji Rong killed was from Huang's clan.
And apparently Ji Rong killed him when he walked in on him draining a mortal like a vampire.
I wonder if it was draining of blood, or draining of Qi. Because chinese tradition vampires drain Qi (which, if you drain it from a mortal means their life force. a fatal thing)
 
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Heh... It could be argued that Kang Zihao is the [] Soldier instead of Gan Guangly.

Weapon talent, instead of Unarmed talent, pride, and lower mental abilities. ;)

Also, @mrttao, it's probably better to say that the thread has known for a while that Ji Rong is the [] Prisoner. Probably almost from the first time we see him. He's pretty distinctive.

EDIT: Wait, how did those lines got rearranged? Fixed, now.
 
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Arkeus said:
I consider Li Suyin a shoe-in for the inner sect. She will almost certainly get in via the production side. Her progress is incredibly quick and she is now determined. I would even say she might have a shot at the combat side, but production side is a near certainty. Likewise, I'd consider Su Ling's chance higher than Han Jian's, Han Fang and Gu Xiulan, and much higher than Fan Yu. I think she can read now, and that she is progressing extremely quickly too.

However, I believe that having Han Jian and co around will slow her progress. His group will notice her, and they will do the opposite of helping her. She's a threat to them, and will be assessed as such. Ling Qi is also a threat, but one they cannot do much about. Su Ling is much more vulnerable. Given the vent was gotten thanks, in part, to her, I consider it dick move to merge the groups for it.

It's not that her only advantage is the vent, it's that it's not only something she has and they don't, it's not only their current home, but she is going to cultivate there every week and having them also cultivate there means they will see her. If I am right about her potential, she will go from "Ling Qi's pet" to "A threat".
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Yeah, no, I'm not seeing it.

I tend to structure my arguments into 'what can I see happening' and the scenario you're proposing - it contradicts too many little details that yrsillar has set up. The way that people respect talent (even Fan Yu, initially), the way that people despise weakness, the fig leaf attempts to keep up a veneer of honor during all things...

Like, give me something concrete to work with and argue with/against. How would they seek to disrupt Su Ling's training?

Edit: This might help: please try pitching it to me as an omake concept. What kind of scenario should I be writing? It helps me work through other people's character-based arguments if I can actually imagine what they're trying to argue because otherwise I'm just going to have to complain about canon characters being portrayed in an OOC manner.
 
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@TheLastOne so you plan to get a wider variety of elemental arts for Breakthrough bonus, does that include going back to the low level Heart arts we previously saw?
 
FixerUpper said:
Edit: This might help: please try pitching it to me as an omake concept. What kind of scenario should I be writing? It helps me work through other people's character-based arguments if I can actually imagine what they're trying to argue because otherwise I'm just going to have to complain about canon characters being portrayed in an OOC manner.
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Han Jian's making great progress, and he finally believes he has great odds to get in the inner sect. Gu Xiulan somehow is going even faster than him, and have a huge amiable rivalry going on. Except they have noticed the girl who was a first stage cultivator now is mid yello/silver like them. She has no friends and no contacts, and Han Jian and Gu Xiulan can do the math: only 2 out of their three can get in the top 8.

Fan Yu constantly shows more and more hate for Su Ling, and Han Fang is getting more scared. So he does what a good leader does and prioritise his men against enemies. He tells Kang Zihao about the vent Bai Meizhen and Su Ling are using while he makes sure Ling Qi is busy elsewhere. That's just one example. Other examples are Gu Xiulan wounding Su Ling heavily just after she gets to Yellow, or Fan Yu doing something foolish, etc.

They aren't friend. They are not just rivals, even. They actively dislike Su Ling, and places are limited. Han Jian is not going to sacrifice either Han Fang or Gu Xiulan for a stranger.
Grigori said:
@TheLastOne so you plan to get a wider variety of elemental arts for Breakthrough bonus, does that include going back to the low level Heart arts we previously saw?
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I suspect we'd need Arts that are for Yellow/Silver for those bonus to work. I'm going to make a Art/Meridian post later today.
 
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I think a good compromise would be to ask what Su Ling and Li Suyin thinks about selling the spring location when Ling Qi cultivates with them at the vent.
 
Arkeus said:
Han Jian's making great progress, and he finally believes he has great odds to get in the inner sect. Gu Xiulan somehow is going even faster than him, and have a huge amiable rivalry going on. Except they have noticed the girl who was a first stage cultivator now is mid yello/silver like them. She has no friends and no contacts, and Han Jian and Gu Xiulan can do the math: only 2 out of their three can get in the top 8.

Fan Yu constantly shows more and more hate for Su Ling, and Han Fang is getting more scared. So he does what a good leader does and prioritise his men against enemies. He tells Kang Zihao about the vent Bai Meizhen and Su Ling are using while he makes sure Ling Qi is busy elsewhere. That's just one example. Other examples are Gu Xiulan wounding Su Ling heavily just after she gets to Yellow, or Fan Yu doing something foolish, etc.

They aren't friend. They are not just rivals, even. They actively dislike Su Ling, and places are limited. Han Jian is not going to sacrifice either Han Fang or Gu Xiulan for a stranger.

I suspect we'd need Arts that are for Yellow/Silver for those bonus to work. I'm going to make a Art/Meridian post later today.
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I'm not usually one to think the best of people but if we really think them attacking or sabotaging one of our other friends is likely, why are we friends with them? Pragmatism is admirable but that isn't the sort of person I'd want anywhere near us.

Needing Yellow/Silver Arts would be annoying. I think someone said something about likely needing introductory Arts before getting advanced forms?
 
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