Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

@Andelevion Since you're a Han Jian fan, you should probably be aware that you're rolling for an action to see how well he takes being told we have this super valuable resource, but we aren't willing to share it for free, he and his friends have to pay talismans, stones, and training to access it. I suggest voting for [] Plan Daughter of the Moon or [] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping if you want to avoid letting it win.

[X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.

Just in general, we have to go for it or give up on the Han Jian group altogether TBH. Wait any longer and it will be an insult no matter how many AP we spend on trying to get the 2 groups together. Trust is a big issue in these sorts of relationships, and the longer the lie (of omission), the greater the betrayal. It will also be too late for the purposes of helping Han Jian and Co. because they're going to be stunted in comparison to the other competitors, perhaps fatally.

If it doesn't work out in private, then it doesn't work out. At least we'll know where we stand and can reevaluate. If nothing else, we can see if HJ would be willing to consider hiring Su Ling, Suyin, and Ling Qi to find another vent and use that one instead. Being honest lances the boil early instead of leading to an even messier split.

Also, LOL @ everyone assuming Su Ling and Suyin are willing to share the vent. They might say no, in which case this is all moot.

[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
[X][stat] Dexterity

Switching now. The chances are that not taking the Han Jian option this turn hurts us is less then actively trying it cripple us socially that is the trying to work on getting the two groups to work together is.

People should come to the cultivating side of the quest and vote for Daughter of the Moon plan!

Thor's Twin said:

If my plan wins, and there is a spectacular failure, we will have to deal with it, and while I will be sad that it didn't work, I will happily work through the new problems that arise. This quest won't go perfectly, and I would rather try and fail than not try at all. While the school of hard knocks has the highest tuition cost, the lessons learned are not easily forgotten and are extremely valuable.

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You say that...but perfect roll -> Try again
Idk whats worse hoping it'll work by trying almost the exact same thing or that it's looking like that's what we'll do.

Arkeus said:

People should come to the cultivating side of the quest and vote for Daughter of the Moon plan!

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I'm convinced. I will probably have time to swap to a different plan before vote close if Coursing River needs to be beaten and Daughter of the Moon doesn't have enough votes.

Anyway I'm out of time to argue for this. Gonna hope the vote swings.

Thor's Twin said:

If my plan wins, and there is a spectacular failure, we will have to deal with it, and while I will be sad that it didn't work, I will happily work through the new problems that arise. This quest won't go perfectly, and I would rather try and fail than not try at all. While the school of hard knocks has the highest tuition cost, the lessons learned are not easily forgotten and are extremely valuable.

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We already tried.
It did not work well.

AbeoLogos said:

I still think it's an incredibly risky social maneuver at this stage. It can very easily be construed as extortion, even if that's not the intention. Han Jian is a cool guy, but I have a hard time believe he'd take "Hey I found this really incredibly potent cultivation site, but you have to pay to use it." in stride.

There's also the logistical issues of actually enforcing that deal among participants. Especially if there's a "be polite" rider to the arrangement. Can we honestly count on Han Jian's support in socially and physically banishing Fan Yu from the vent if it comes to it? The guy's got marching orders from his parents to stay in his good graces, and the vent is too great a resource to deny a 'friend' once it's out in the open.

The whole thing just exists somewhere on the scale of "dick move" unless it goes perfectly.

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Delcer said:

Good point.

@Thor's Twin, could you edit that part out? I'll just swap plans if you're adamant on it.

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Extortion is obtaining something through force or intimidation and that really isn't what's happening here. We're offering information that we had to sweat and bleed for and don't wish to do it for free. Especially important since the quartet didn't exactly endear themselves to the wilderness duo last time they met.
I suppose it might help if we were clear on the possible trade? Repeat payments really aren't enforceable so I'd say something like one time payment of 50 red stones to Suyin and Ling? Not really sure what would be appropriate but I think it would be important to be set on what the duo want before talking to Jian.
This is different from the training session though in that this isn't requiring any interaction between the groups. Plus it all depends on the duo agreeing at which point it's out of our hands i.e. we aren't trying to convince them but we offer this option of payment for use

Kshail said:

You say that...but perfect roll -> Try again
Idk whats worse hoping it'll work by trying almost the exact same thing or that it's looking like that's what we'll do.

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This is a misleading characterization verging on deception. Last time, the entire group was faced with the idea that we were seemingly forcing them to potentially take on two deadweights permanently as a charitable favor to Ling Qi, and unlike Ling Qi, who proved herself right away, Suyin and Su Ling were not very impressive in their performance.

This time, we're showing straight up that both sides have something to offer one another if a deal can be worked out. That's a completely different idea and honestly, the one we should have tried straight up first given our skill focus.

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Grigori said:

Extortion is obtaining something through force or intimidation and that really isn't what's happening here. We're offering information that we had to sweat and bleed for and don't wish to do it for free. Especially important since the quartet didn't exactly endear themselves to the wilderness duo last time they met.

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The biggest issue is that it really isn't our info to give. We promised the other two girls we won't spread this info around. this is breaking this promise

mrttao said:

The biggest issue is that it really isn't our info to give. We promised the other two girls we won't spread this info around. this is breaking this promise

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Which is why we ask them first. In the sub vote, if the two girls don't agree to the spreading of the information to Han Jian, then we don't do it. If they do agree, then we bring it up to Han Jian. It won't be breaking the promise if we clear it up with them first.

@Grosstoad Thanks for voting for me but I think it's pretty clear that my plan's not getting any traction. It's probably time to change your vote to whichever of the leading plans you like more.

As for me I'm gonna vote for Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping for two main reasons.

1. I want the tokens over with. If they do give us a boost every week without figuring out what they are is costing us. If they're sellable I want it done with.
   
2. I am highly unconvinced about the wisdom of trying to meld the groups together in that fashion. Don't get me wrong I like Han Jian but that puts an incredible amount of pressure on him. Don't forget we aren't really in his inner circle of friends at this point.

• a) He now knows there exists an incredible cultivation site that he has no access to, which could exacabate his jealousy issues if he can't figure out a way to have the groups agree to share.
  
• b) Someone did a calculation about what the vent was worth per week last vote. It wasn't at all cheap, even for nobles. They may not be able to pay enough, and Han Jian will be facing a lot of pressure from his in group to drive down the price as much as possible. This combined with the fact that Ling Qi is not the best negociator.
  
• c) He will have a lot of trouble getting his group to agree to do all that, and has virtually no power to force them to agree.
  
• d) If he can't reach an agreement he has to face an unfortunate choice: either keep the secret, knowing that it places him further and further behind and deprives his people of an incredible resource, possibly inflaming his jealousy issues. Or he can try to get access to the vent anyway. Perhaps with further negotications at first, but the idea of sneaking after Ling Qi, or Suyin or Su Ling to find the location will occur to him at some point. As Huang Da pointed out, the vent isn't occupied all the time. I'm not saying he's gonna leap to cheating us and our friends, but the temptation will be there and will only grow the longer he can't manage to get access to the vent. Remembering here that Ling Qi is not really part of his inner circle at this point.

Points A and D are of particular concern to me as it could make the issues we're trying to fix worse rather than better.

Anyway:
[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping

mrttao said:

The biggest issue is that it really isn't our info to give. We promised the other two girls we won't spread this info around. this is breaking this promise

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Another misleading characterization verging on a lie. First, the promise was made only WRT to the crystal spring and never the vent. We have, of course, not broken the trust just because we're a good friend and have always involved them first and secured permission before inviting anyone else.

The subclause also says straight up that the offer is made only if Suyin and Su Lin both agree to making it. If they don't agree, Han Jian is never asked in the first place.

[X][stat] Dexterity

[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping

Thor's Twin said:

If my plan wins, and there is a spectacular failure, we will have to deal with it, and while I will be sad that it didn't work, I will happily work through the new problems that arise. This quest won't go perfectly, and I would rather try and fail than not try at all. While the school of hard knocks has the highest tuition cost, the lessons learned are not easily forgotten and are extremely valuable.

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Respectfully, this is a weak argument. It would be more persuasive if we hadn't already had the opportunity to learn our lesson from near-disastrous attempts at bridging the two parties. So far, evidence points to lessons being easily forgotten, and thus of dubious value. I'm not comfortable with glorifying failure almost for failure's sake.

Grigori said:

Repeat payments really aren't enforceable so I'd say something like one time payment of 50 red stones to Suyin and Ling? Not really sure what would be appropriate but I think it would be important to be set on what the duo want before talking to Jian.

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50 stones conveniently levels to a particular benchmark of ours at hand. It's equal to 1 week's use of our Archive Pass. 50 stones is the equivalent of accessing the 1st level archive once.

The Argent Vent is worth in incredible amount more than that. 500 would not be unreasonable. It's an absurdly valuable resource.

The Argent Vent is worth a minimum of 70 stones a week. Maybe more. It's really, really, really good. It's also the one chance Li Suyin and Su Ling have at being in the top 8 at the end of the year. They'll be competing against Han Jian and Gu Xiulan, at least, for it.

So sharing it is not "cost free".

I'm kind of hoping Li Suyin can get through in the production branch though, especially if her healing gets really good.

AbeoLogos said:

Respectfully, this is a weak argument. It would be more persuasive if we hadn't already had the opportunity to learn our lesson from near-disastrous attempts at bridging the two parties. So far, evidence points to lessons being easily forgotten, and thus of dubious value. I'm not comfortable with glorifying failure almost for failure's sake.

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And this would be a more convincing argument if you weren't pushing for the plan that will disintegrate the Han Jian social bond altogether.

Why do people keep acting like this is trying to meld the groups together? This is just a mutually beneficial business transaction. Sharing the vent doesn't make them anymore a part of our group than Huang Da

mrttao said:

The biggest issue is that it really isn't our info to give. We promised the other two girls we won't spread this info around. this is breaking this promise

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Think it's already been made pretty clear we aren't going behind the duo's back, even stated it in the post you quoted...

Grigori said:

This is different from the training session though in that this isn't requiring any interaction between the groups. Plus it all depends on the duo agreeing at which point it's out of our hands i.e. we aren't trying to convince them but we offer this option of payment for use

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Katreus said:

Another misleading characterization verging on a lie. First, the promise was made only WRT to the crystal spring and never the vent.

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No, the promise was made for ALL finds while we search together.

Katreus said:

The subclause also says straight up that the offer is made only if Suyin and Su Lin both agree to making it. If they don't agree, Han Jian is never asked in the first place.

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Fair point, it does say to get their permission first... that said, this raises all kinds of other problems as per

Humbaba said:

reasons.

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Delcer said:

@Andelevion Since you're a Han Jian fan, you should probably be aware that you're rolling for an action to see how well he takes being told we have this super valuable resource, but we aren't willing to share it for free, he and his friends have to pay talismans, stones, and training to access it. I suggest voting for [] Plan Daughter of the Moon or [] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping if you want to avoid letting it win

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Hmm I stand corrected and more informed. I'm a little concerned how easy it is to peg my motivations for voting

But also absolutely not for Plan Backlog, cause there isn't the Han Jian personal action which I want

So then!!

[X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.

(Unless the plan died in which case I'll decide upon reviewing the best options for my needs~)

mrttao said:

The biggest issue is that it really isn't our info to give. We promised the other two girls we won't spread this info around. this is breaking this promise

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Seriously? This argument is nonsensical given the vote specifies asking the other two first. If they say no, that's the end of it.

[X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River

Anyway changing vote as I prefer this one. The Han Jian action is necessary as a confrontation is going to happen eventually either way, as his jealousy is building and if their team discovers we had this vent and didn't even try and tell them that'll be just as bad.

The situation has changed from last time as other members on Han's team believed that Suyin and Sung weren't capable of pulling their weight adequatly, and that they were there solely because we were friends with them. That's changed as they're clearly offering something of incredible value, Han's team are now feeling self conscious of their growth, and Ling Qi has prepared the Xuilan front which was one of the primary issues last time given she's the other social character on their group.

The sites value shouldn't be remotely underestimated. It gives each of them 1 yellow stone a week, +5 spirit/physical/qi cultivation dice before bonuses from yellow so it's liable to be even more, and an automatic 5 successes to argent soul. The value of that every single weekwhen you consider the pills and resources we have available is easily 25+ red stones, and all four would be getting that value. The value of the site is phenomenal, the price for access will be far less than the equivalent in resources and they're nobles and actually have access and are willing to pay for their family to grow fast in the first place.

Han Jian rejecting the offer would honestly just display stupidity given they would benefit considerably more from the trade, it's just ensures that the two other people who found it gain some extra benefit too which of itself is actually the key to good relationships.

Hmmm.... What I'm about to say might seem scandalous, but joining the two groups together is not my hill to die on. There have been some extremely good arguments for both sides of this contentious debate, but at the moment I am starting to lean towards removing that sub vote and merely trying to shore up the SL with Han Jian instead of trying to do this negotiation and trying to join the two groups together.

However, I feel that with the amount of passion that some of the people voting for my plan have defended the subclause it would be a betrayal of their trust in the plan to change it now.

The hill I am willing to die on is the preservation of the Han Jian social link. Would the people voting for my plan be willing to let the matter about merging the groups together lie for the week so that we can instead focus on preserving the social link?

At this point, there has been no change in the plan, and until the people voting for my plan come to a resolution on the matter there won't be.