- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If it weren't so a ranked vote would have been more sensible.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Australia
Was pretty busy today. And tired. I'll close the vote and move things along when I get home from work tomorrow.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
Even if we are overcommitted, this will tell is a lot for future planning. If reinforcements show up, that should create windows for our other shops too.
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
Even if we are overcommitted, this will tell is a lot for future planning. If reinforcements show up, that should create windows for our other shops too.
- Location
- Infraspace
So, it's been over a week since I last shared anything on the Renaissance mesh, and the vote seems to have calmed down to the point I don't feel I'm changing the subject too abruptly. I've started blocking out more windows in the dorsal part of saucer and a little bit in the neck and secondary hull. These all line up with decks, too!
I'm not happy with the windows at the very front, though – and to a lesser extent the rest of those on the rim. I'm going to have to shrink them down a lot, I think.
Also, the windows on the neck in particular really help to give a sense of the scale of the ship.
I'm not happy with the windows at the very front, though – and to a lesser extent the rest of those on the rim. I'm going to have to shrink them down a lot, I think.
Also, the windows on the neck in particular really help to give a sense of the scale of the ship.
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[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
I'm sure Thiur and the Ked Paddah are well aware of the possibility of reinforcements, and they alert us to such in the post. However, what they don't know is if the Emperor will actually scramble a fleet. Remember, Feudal society, so he could easily also hold his fleet in reserve to get rid of a problematic house or send a token force. I'm also sure if reinforcements are sent Thiur will be smart enough to have kept a picket force and will withdraw before things get too dicey. If the Ked Paddah don't want to because they took Will: VERY HIGH that's their prerogative.
On a sidebar: while they think otherwise, due to Silent Repose Ixaria could have most of their fleet in the system already. If so, and we get our Thirded fleet ganged up on, @SynchronizedWritersBlock would be totally justified in posting an "IT'S A TRAP" gif.
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
It's important to remember we're operating on more a WW1 or WW2 level of intelligence here, where "That's not battlecruiser squadron, that's the High Seas Fleet!" is a thing that happened, not modern day or Cold War where we have U2s and satellites and the instant a ship moves, we know. This is especially true for ship movements within the system with Silent Repose in operation (fucking GAP generators).
I'm sure Thiur and the Ked Paddah are well aware of the possibility of reinforcements, and they alert us to such in the post. However, what they don't know is if the Emperor will actually scramble a fleet. Remember, Feudal society, so he could easily also hold his fleet in reserve to get rid of a problematic house or send a token force. I'm also sure if reinforcements are sent Thiur will be smart enough to have kept a picket force and will withdraw before things get too dicey. If the Ked Paddah don't want to because they took Will: VERY HIGH that's their prerogative.
On a sidebar: while they think otherwise, due to Silent Repose Ixaria could have most of their fleet in the system already. If so, and we get our Thirded fleet ganged up on, @SynchronizedWritersBlock would be totally justified in posting an "IT'S A TRAP" gif.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Actually - why would a starship have windows? It's a structural weekness.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Because literally every Federation starship before or after has tons of windows. It's a basic aesthetic feature of the setting, and the Rennie would look out of place without them.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's a structural weakness if the material if the windows is actually weaker than the surrounding hull. Rather than spme form of "Transparent Duranium" or whatever.
And Even then the entire outer hull area that seems to be 90% crew quarters and other crew amenities... which indicates that in battle these are considered ablative armour at best anyway.
"Why do you keep all your valued possessions in Locker 8C in the center of the saucer rather than in your quarters?"
"Lol dude when they first drafted this design our quarters were labelled as 'spaced armor' I'm not putting Mr. Kittybear in there."
- Location
- Patriarchova
I'm sure Thiur and the Ked Paddah are well aware of the possibility of reinforcements, and they alert us to such in the post. However, what they don't know is if the Emperor will actually scramble a fleet. Remember, Feudal society, so he could easily also hold his fleet in reserve to get rid of a problematic house or send a token force. I'm also sure if reinforcements are sent Thiur will be smart enough to have kept a picket force and will withdraw before things get too dicey. If the Ked Paddah don't want to because they took Will: VERY HIGH that's their prerogative.
On a sidebar: while they think otherwise, due to Silent Repose Ixaria could have most of their fleet in the system already. If so, and we get our Thirded fleet ganged up on, @SynchronizedWritersBlock would be totally justified in posting an "IT'S A TRAP" gif.
I'm banking on the Imperial fleet having already been sent to reinforce Gammon, as that's where we've been applying the most pressure until now.
- Location
- madison
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
This whole venture strikes me as a shockingly poorly planned attack, but at least this way we can see the size of the fleet and retreat if need be.
[X] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
This whole venture strikes me as a shockingly poorly planned attack, but at least this way we can see the size of the fleet and retreat if need be.
I'm just as worried about a smaller force given the boosts. Two frigates and one cruiser could fight off one of our 3-way-split fleets. Four frigates and a cruiser could probably win the fight for Ixaria Prime orbital. Keep in mind that under far less favorable conditions, one frigate and one outpost had a chance to rout an entire task force.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
Voting on these two only; undecided for the last.
Well, that's one way to stir up discussion.
*goes back to studying*
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
Voting on these two only; undecided for the last.
Well, that's one way to stir up discussion.
*goes back to studying*
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
No, it's not. This is not "retarded" write-in games. This is a good faith effort on the part of the playerbase to be, for lack of a better term, cunning. There are situations where this maneuver would actually make sense. I myself used to favor focusing on two and only two targets- the silos for the Subspace Wavefront System, and the sun station.
The problem is that we have people behaving as though splitting to hit three targets exposes the fleet to extreme, overwhelming danger.If this were true, it would indicate that hitting three targets is obviously wrong. Since a very conservative naval officer who has detailed knowledge of the defenses considers "thirds" to be acceptably-sized forces, I doubt this.
We were given the option to hit "up to three" targets. Unless "up to three" was a trap option and we were set up to fall into the trap, then I think that "no no it's too dangerous, focus the whole fleet on one thing" represents a classic example of the playerbase deciding to use lateral thinking to avoid a perceived (illusory) danger. Quest players do that. It's a known tendency that anyone who's followed quests is aware of. I don't see how it's dishonest debating to bring up the possibility.
There is a very real risk that if we focus on too few targets, we won't damage the defenses enough to neutralize their benefits before a heavy enemy fleet arrives, at which point we take a beating or have to run away leaving the system minimally damaged. Honestly, that's the most likely explanation I can think of for how the Ked Paddah fought over this system eight times without winning!
Bluntly, if we don't get multiple waves of attacks, then the Ked Paddah and Thuir are very ill-advised to be launching the attack. All the defensive facilities need to be neutralized, not just a few critical ones. We'd be out of our minds to leave Iron Hail, Ixira's Scalpel, and Iron Dome intact behind us while engaging the main world fortifications around Ixira III
If they only think they have time to hit one wave of targets, before heavy reinforcements can arrive, they should be planning this as a massive raid, not as an all-out offensive to capture territory.
MADE UP NUMBER ALERT!
What I'm saying is that... suppose that it takes six hours to launch an attack on a single target. Our ships can warp in, wreck their first-wave targets, and regroup in six hours. After that time, they're ready to do something else- be it "retreat" or be it "let's go bonk some more creepy yellow-eyed number-filled heads together."
Given that this is true, and given the known distance from Ixira to the major Licori fleet base(s) near their homeworld, it is a matter of basic arithmetic to say "yo, how many targets can we hit before heavy reinforcements show up?" This has nothing to do with knowing exactly what will happen or exactly identifying all Licori ships. It's a generalized observation based on math and astrography.
If it takes twelve hours for the reinforcements to arrive the answer is "two, but time is tight." If twenty hours the answer is "three, but that would be a long day of fighting and we'd be exhausted." If it takes four days for reinforcements to show up, but only six hours to bust up a single target, then the answer is "you can hit as many targets as you want!"
Now obviously any such estimate could be wrong. The Licori COULD be trolling us into attacking a system defended by their entire fleet. The Licori COULD have a fleet already halfway there before we even show up. But SOME estimation should be possible. They should have SOME number that reflects, realistically, how many complete waves of attacks they're likely to get to bust up the defense station, before having to fight anyone's heavy metal. And it's fine if that number is pessimistic.
Now, if the answer to "how many attack waves" is "two or more," we can do this- we can neutralize the huge 'buffing' advantages of the defenses before a major fleet arrives to exploit those advantages. If the answer is "only one," then conquering this system is going to be either impossible or insanely hard. In which case we'd be idiots to expect them to conquer the system, and so would Thuir and the Ked Paddah.
Why yes. Yes he would.On a sidebar: while they think otherwise, due to Silent Repose Ixaria could have most of their fleet in the system already. If so, and we get our Thirded fleet ganged up on, @SynchronizedWritersBlock would be totally justified in posting an "IT'S A TRAP" gif.
[Cue the Padishah Emperor going all Palpatine on poor captured Commodore Thuir and torturing him with random lightning gauntlets the Ixirans whipped up for him because lightning hands is AWESOME.]
I think that had to do with staggeringly bad luck on the minefield rolls- sort of like how the massive Dardanelles offensive fleet (the one that preceded the ANZAC troops getting thrown into a meat grinder) turned back after three battleships took mine hits within a matter of minutes after hitting literally the only string of mines the Turks had even bothered to deploy.
We can't really compensate for bad luck on the minefields. And expanding each component task force to 50% of our fleet instead of 33% will only do so much to help us if we sail through a minefield and out the other side with one explorer crippled, one damaged, and three frigates vaporized or something.
The only way we can even vaguely hope to be 'immune' to such kinds of defeat is by keeping the whole fleet bunched up in one place. Trouble is, if we do that, whatever target we hit, other targets can screw us. The Subspace Wavefront system, if left intact, means that our fleet ends up scattered and chewed up piecemeal no matter what we intended. The sun station likely contains a weapon capable of frying our whole fleet if given time to prepare. Silent Repose, already a menace even before heavy reinforcements arrive, becomes incredibly dangerous to our fleet after reinforcements arrive.
If we keep the fleet bunched up in one big blob, we MIGHT be safer (though all ships still get exposed to mines). But we'll be in so few places that the actual damage we do is going to be minimal
They said themselves that we'd only have time to neutralize some facilities.
The percentage of the fleet that is fit for fighting after the minefield is what matters to me. Since it's likely we get shield recharge between minefields, winning the battle after the minefield in convincing fashion is very important to avoid hull damage. I don't like playing close to this threshold because it's already been demonstrated that hull damage is likely from a close post-minefield fight.
This may be more conservative than Thuir and the Ked Paddah, but for good reason. The KP might even be the kind of pragmatist who, in certain situations, would sacrifice ships to achieve important objectives. Particularly ones that have to do with potential extinction.
Is that where the ships are? The major Licori fleet base near their home world? Why assume that? Also, when did the reinforcements get under way? When we entered the system? Two days before we entered the system when they spotted our warp signatures incoming?
Nobody knows.
I disagree. There are just too many unknown factors. We don't know where the ships started at, because we don't know how the Empire has been moving around to guard against the Federation. We don't know when our ships would have been detected. We don't know when or if the Empire decided to send reinforcements. We don't know which ships they will send if they do... the Licori Explorers/capital ships can probably move on their own considerably faster than the frigates can move if they all have to travel together.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Put this way, If we plan for "there is absolutely no way the minefield can do enough damage to our fleet to stop us from winning this battle without hull damage," then we end up restricted to one target. Splitting this force in half doesn't lead to "mine-proof" task forces.
Planning for "the minefield probably won't do enough damage to our fleet to stop us from winning without hull damage" is where we get two or three task forces... but it also means we're accepting risk.
We just plain do not have enough ships to fight this battle without risk. It's not gonna happen. We can either fight in a zero-risk manner and achieve very little per unit time, or we can accept risk and try to achieve something decisive.
If your war plan is predicated on "never lose a ship even in a major battle," then your war plan is going to be so conservative that it renders victory nearly impossible. We hit one key target, hopefully lose no ships... but sooner or later we get sucked into a pitched battle against either the Ixira III planetary defenses, the Ixira system defense fleet, a reinforcement fleet, or some combination of the above. They're still benefiting from the bulk of the defenses, so it ends up being an ugly fight.
That, or they just straight up nuke the whole fleet with the sun weapon, which some people have advocated ignoring (not saying you have, since I don't recall you doing so).
Look, there still has to be some working assumption.
You can either plan your attack on the assumption you'll only get one shot (and allow for the possibility of being lucky and turning out to be wrong)... Or you plan your attack on the assumption that you'll get multiple shots (and allow for the possibility of being unlucky and turning out to be wrong).
The idea that we only get one shot before heavy reinforcements arrive is mutually exclusive with the idea of conquering the system in anything like a reasonable degree of safety. If the battle were being planned on this assumption, it would be incredibly rash to assume that we can just seize the system this way.
It's like, I get that battle is unpredictable and all, but that doesn't mean you just don't even try to have a plan, that you make literally no tactical assumptions. It means you make a plan based on the most likely occurrence, and then make contingency plans for what happens if you turn out to be wrong.
Yes, but then we have to fight a second battle against boosted outposts.
In order for the entire plan to be successful, we need to preserve adequate force through the first battle to fight the second. There is no way to succeed if we don't do that. So we do have to try to minimize casualties in the first phase, and the best way to do that is to hit two or one targets.
I hate to lose ships.
(I'm extremely surprised that we haven't actually lost any against the Cardassians and friends yet.)
But if we only fight this war where we won't lose hulls, then we will lose - either through an Arcadian super weapon killing planets or the public support for the war will evaporate.
War without risk means either overwhelming power - or the inability to win. We don't have overwhelming power - no matter how much we want to.
A standard battle in deep space would be an almost certain victory for us, so they would be stupid to give us that. No, they will milk their every advantage, force us to fight in their prepared ground. We have to face this, and fight in their ground to remove their advantages. We will take losses, and I hate that, but I would hate this annoying little dystopia to baulk the Federation more.
(I'm extremely surprised that we haven't actually lost any against the Cardassians and friends yet.)
But if we only fight this war where we won't lose hulls, then we will lose - either through an Arcadian super weapon killing planets or the public support for the war will evaporate.
War without risk means either overwhelming power - or the inability to win. We don't have overwhelming power - no matter how much we want to.
A standard battle in deep space would be an almost certain victory for us, so they would be stupid to give us that. No, they will milk their every advantage, force us to fight in their prepared ground. We have to face this, and fight in their ground to remove their advantages. We will take losses, and I hate that, but I would hate this annoying little dystopia to baulk the Federation more.
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It's not even ship loss. I'm willing to accept ship loss to take the system. The problem is that this is a multi-phase battle. Ship loss in the first round means we are hurting in the second round. That is the entire basis of the Acadian defense strategy, by installing all these advantages that we have to get rid of first they force attrition and delay. If we lose too much in the first round, we fail to move on to the second round, or we lose the battle there. I'd be okay winning the second round battle(s) if we lost a good portion of the fleet, but I would not be okay with losing the second round battles because we lost too many hull points in the first round. That would be bad strategy. And I think it's the case that if we are too aggressive, we are vulnerable to this flaw.
e: And the Ixarians will be deliberately trying to inflict this on us, so it's not just a principle in a vacuum. Their entire solar system is set up to isolate and pick off ships or groups of ships. What else would the Silent Repose system and the travel interference be for?
e: And the Ixarians will be deliberately trying to inflict this on us, so it's not just a principle in a vacuum. Their entire solar system is set up to isolate and pick off ships or groups of ships. What else would the Silent Repose system and the travel interference be for?
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
It gets worse - there's a massive nuclear furnace in the middle of the system. Literally everyone not under some sort of shielding is being bombarded with cancer-inducing radiation.
Clearly, the licori stellar experiments are an attempt by the Mentats to clean up the galaxy.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If we are forced to fight this battle against the outposts, without an opportunity to knock out a second round of defensive installations, then this entire attack was a very bad idea as I have already discussed.
I am choosing to believe that the NPCs aren't planning to stupid themselves to death doing something they have no compelling reason to do
We have to avoid heavy casualties in the first phase, but we do not have to avoid all casualties. Furthermore, if the price of avoiding heavy casualties in the first phase is to make the first phase so ineffectual that it doesn't accomplish anything...
In that case, the entire first phase, and any 'merely moderate' casualties we sustain in it, will be for nothing.
This is especially true if, as many others appear to believe, the second phase of the battle is "immediately after the first phase, you are forced to fight the enemy's strongest defenses and/or a large reinforcement fleet, benefiting from the full 'buff power' of the remaining defenses." Indeed, if that is the case, then we should simply abort the battle after the first phase is over, and make it a raiding operation rather than an attempt to conquer the system. And I would argue that if the defenses are as strong as most here believe, and if the risk of being forced into a heavy, decisive battle right after the first phase of defense reduction is as high as some here believe...
Then Thuir and the Ked Paddah would be fools to do more than try and raid the system.