- Location
- Australia
If you can find that out, be sure to tell the Admirals, because they don't have those answers either.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
No plan survives contact with the enemy anyway. We shall see what we shall see.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[X] No second target
[X] No third target
I don't watch the quest closely enough to work with the details, but I can see a couple major problems with this vote. The failure to encode "don't attack multiple targets" in an obvious and default manner effectively guarantees that we attack three targets. Between the minefields, the torpedo platform, the fleet-scatterer, and the recent changes to the combat system, having three small fights guarantees defeat in detail. I'll do what I can, but the vote is fucked.
In the future, I recommend either requiring plan voting or presenting separate "how many targets" and "which targets" tasks.
edit: This is very similar to the problem of allocating resources while maintaining a reserve. We see this most often in quests when purchasing items using character XP.
[X] No third target
I don't watch the quest closely enough to work with the details, but I can see a couple major problems with this vote. The failure to encode "don't attack multiple targets" in an obvious and default manner effectively guarantees that we attack three targets. Between the minefields, the torpedo platform, the fleet-scatterer, and the recent changes to the combat system, having three small fights guarantees defeat in detail. I'll do what I can, but the vote is fucked.
In the future, I recommend either requiring plan voting or presenting separate "how many targets" and "which targets" tasks.
edit: This is very similar to the problem of allocating resources while maintaining a reserve. We see this most often in quests when purchasing items using character XP.
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- Location
- madison
do they at least know why the ked pad decided to do this in one attack instead of picking away at the super weapons one raid at a time?
- Location
- Patriarchova
Presumably because the Licori can repair the weapons as quickly as the KP can repair or replace ships.
/me is impatient for battle results so that she can get a look at KP ship stats, and draw them.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
It occurs to me that if that solar-orbiting station is something to send things back in time, then the purpose of the sensor masking station is to allow the defenders to "save-scum" the battle, to optimize their tactics against us, which would be handled mechanically by Oneiros running the battles again and again, so long as the station succeeds on some test or another, until either it fails or we fail enough that the Licori accept that specific outcome.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Might also explain how the "dangerous to everybody including themselves" civ built an entire system full of one-off SCIENCE prototypes that're somehow all stable enough to get through nine-plus battles without exploding.
- Location
- Patriarchova
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Forward in time. Except you mean it sends the whole system bar enemies back in time?
- Location
- Patriarchova
Long ago in a distant sector, I, DIKHED, THE NUMBER-CRUNCHING MASTER OF SCIENCE, unleashed an UNSPEAKABLE SOLAR EVENT! But a foolish Federation Commodore commanding a powerful fleet flew forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in time and flung the solar system back, to where my insanity is LAW. Now, the fool seeks to return to the past to undo the future that is Dikhed.
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- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Seriously, if that happened I'd expect someone to take exception. Because if there's still a universe out there instead of the primordial sea of chaos, SOMEONE must be there politely restricting this nonsense.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Yes, there is someone. Ascended mentats from the future.
And this is why the trekverse is so littered with spacial anomolies and has laws of physics that fall apart at the lightest touch.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- that makes way to much sense.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If the Ked Paddah can't come up with a reasonable estimate for roughly how long it takes Licori reinforcements to fly to this system after attacking the place seven times, the Ked Paddah are now on my list of Dumbest Species In The Galaxy along with the Kazon and the Pakleds. Because seriously, that is just pathetic.
[sighs]
Uh... Vebyast? We have reason to think that ships are in the same danger from mines every time they fly through a minefield. Flying 30 ships through one minefield in one group of 30 endangers them no more than flying them in three separate groups of 10 hitting three separate targets.
If we hit ONE target, we have done indecisive chip damage to the defenses. We will be forced to withdraw before accomplishing anything significant, and the Licori will get months to repair the damaged facilities while our ships lick their wounds.
In my opinion, it is entirely possible that this is exactly why the Ked Paddah have failed to conquer the system. They have "prudently" concentrated their forces each time, did minimal damage to a single target, then had to run away for fear of what the remaining defenses could do to them in conjunction with reinforcements from the Licori home system. By the time the Ked Paddah repaired their fleet to fight the (N+1)th Battle of Ixaria, the system defenses were as strong as ever. Lather, rinse, repeat.
If we're not going to do enough damage to materially reduce the defenses' strength, we shouldn't be attacking at all. I finally decided this was a reason to hit three targets.
It's okay. We'll handle it. We handled it.
[Sam Vimes is best Temporal Affairs man!]
Leslie:
"Would I have told Thuir about that trick? ...Crap. I can't remember. For once in my life, I HOPE I did something dumb when I was drunk..."
- Location
- Australia
They could give you very precise estimates for an Arcadian Empire not at war with the Federation.
Now? Not so much. Who knows where the explorers are being held now, and how many they will dispatch. It invalidates previous understanding.
They may not even reinforce the system as well.
Now? Not so much. Who knows where the explorers are being held now, and how many they will dispatch. It invalidates previous understanding.
They may not even reinforce the system as well.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Which would be fine if the mines were the only things to worry about in any given battle, rather than the mines, the long-range torpedo station, and the defenses of each individual installation. Splitting the force into three detachments, with the scattering effect in play, means our forces wouldn't show up with "stomp the defenses" level of force to any fight. All the while, the sensor masking means that the commanders couldn't assign more ships to a detachment that would wind up fighting the (buffed) enemy ships.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It's not so much that they should be able to tell us exactly what 'will' happen. But there should be a reasonable range of estimates. Given the travel times "they plausibly could be here within an hour" says some very significant things, as does "it would take days." They should have a clue, or at least be able to think in terms of "well, if the Licori deliberately forward-deployed a reinforcement fleet they could hit us in an hour, but if their fleet is concentrated at their homeworld it will take umpty-ump hours to arrive at the highest speed we've ever seen them travel."
This isn't really about knowing where the ships are based and the exact instant at which they must arrive. It's about basic arithmetic, making and discussing multiple contingencies, and planning ahead. Given the Ked Paddah's famous foresight and planning and caution, this should be a routine thing for them to do whenever planning anything.
I can't imagine the Ked Paddah planning this attack if they really believe that suddenly there is absolutely no knowledge or reasonable hypotheses they can form about Licori capabilities. And, again, if the Ked Paddah do have some idea what they think most likely to happen... if they only expect to be able to hit one wave of targets before heavy reinforcements arrive, as many posters here are asserting... then this attack is incredibly stupid and the entire phrasing of the most recent quest post is effectively us agreeing to go on a fool's errand.
The Ked Paddah should not be planning to conquer this system if they don't have time to methodically neutralize its defenses before a heavy reinforcement fleet can arrive. Their 'hat' has been prudence since 2310, and it is not prudent to gamble on "maybe a reinforcement fleet will arrive in time and maybe it won't."
Bluntly, on some level this simply does not matter. We have to trust that the Ked Paddah and Thuir aren't completely insane or stupid, and actually think they can plausibly hit three targets. If they're insane or stupid, then we're doomed no matter what we do- because that stupidity will express itself on the battlefield, not just in the battle planning.
I say, let's assume that "we can hit three targets" isn't just some gratuitous trap set by Oneiros to trick us into wrecking our own fleet by doing exactly what he said. Let's assume that it is not the case that our stupid, stupid field commanders are dooming us to defeat by ludicrously underestimating a foe the Ked Paddah have fought seven times, drawing us into a trap that ONLY a cunning write in vote option can save us from...
Now, getting that out of the way. It would be nice to concentrate our forces and hit targets one or two at a time.
However, the people making hardline "one target" votes are ignoring targets we really need out of the way- like the unknown mystery device near the sun, like the very jamming and navigation-disrupting systems that make this whole offensive risky in the first place.
Furthermore, the fewer targets we hit per wave, the more times our ships get exposed to minefields before this is over- if we massed every ship and attacked each of seven targets with a single concentrated fleet, that fleet would get dragged lengthwise through seven minefields. I doubt we'd have much of a fleet left just from that, regardless of anything else.
If we don't have enough force for Thuir and the Ked Paddah to plan on hitting multiple targets simultaneously based on the known strength of the defenses, this attack plan shouldn't be happening at all, the Ked Paddah should never have suggested it and Thuir should have said something. We are getting literally zero in-game indication that this attack is such a demented gamble as some of the questgoers are making it out to be.
...
Furthermore, we have people implicitly assuming that reinforcements will arrive fast, and therefore we must concentrate our forces. Very well... but in that case we shouldn't be planning to conquer the system at all, because we'll be facing a heavy Licori fleet and largely intact defenses at the same time. That's a combination we can't reasonably hope to beat without heavy losses.
Since the Ked Paddah and Thuir aren't a bunch of gibbering morons, and apparently they think that they have time to win this battle before being forced to deal with a heavy enemy fleet... I feel we are compelled to believe them.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Current tally.
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 1785 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.3.2
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
No. of Votes: 28
[X] Ixaria Star
No. of Votes: 25
[X] No third target
No. of Votes: 16
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
No. of Votes: 13
[X] Ixaria I - "Iron Dome"
No. of Votes: 7
[X] No second target
No. of Votes: 4
[X] Ixaria VII - "Ixira Scapel"
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Ixaria VII - "Ixira's Scalpel"
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Ixaria V - "Iron Hail"
No. of Votes: 2
[x] Ixaria Prime
No. of Votes: 2
[x] No second
No. of Votes: 2
[x] No third
No. of Votes: 2
[x] Plan Essentials
[x] Ixaria VI
[x] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only
[x] Ixaria V
No. of Votes: 1
-[x] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only
-[x] Ixaria VI
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 38
##### NetTally 1.7.3.2
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
No. of Votes: 28
[X] Ixaria Star
No. of Votes: 25
[X] No third target
No. of Votes: 16
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"
No. of Votes: 13
[X] Ixaria I - "Iron Dome"
No. of Votes: 7
[X] No second target
No. of Votes: 4
[X] Ixaria VII - "Ixira Scapel"
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Ixaria VII - "Ixira's Scalpel"
No. of Votes: 3
[X] Ixaria V - "Iron Hail"
No. of Votes: 2
[x] Ixaria Prime
No. of Votes: 2
[x] No second
No. of Votes: 2
[x] No third
No. of Votes: 2
[x] Plan Essentials
[x] Ixaria VI
[x] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only
[x] Ixaria V
No. of Votes: 1
-[x] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only
-[x] Ixaria VI
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 38
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
You know, out of the whole lot of that, this pisses me the hell off:
Because:drawing us into a trap that ONLY a cunning write in vote option can save us from...
Bolding mine for emphasis. The notion that somehow this is "retarded write-in bullshit" is verging on bad faith debating.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
What annoys we is that people claim that splitting our fleet in three is "insane" and will lead to "a guaranteed loss" while Thuir and the commander of a race whose main hat is "being prudent" have said nothing to even hint at this being the case. Oh, and that some people say we shouldn't listen to the Ked Paddah because "they lost 8 times!" while voting for a plan that is as prudent as, if not even more prudent than the plans the Ked Paddah have most likely used in the past to try to capture this system. And their prudence hasn't helped them capture this system.
But that's just my two strips of latinum.
But that's just my two strips of latinum.
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- Location
- Infraspace
I really haven't gotten the implication that there will be multiple waves of attacks. My interpretation is that we're balancing the risk to our ships against the reward of fewer enemy superscience installations that we'll have to cope with for the rest of the attack, after our initial strikes. Essentially, I think we're 'paying' with fleet strength for reduced special capability on the part of the Licori.