To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 29, 2017

Strategically, tugging at Gammon and Ixaria at the same time is sound. The Emperor can only commit enough force to prevent one operation from succeeding.

But not this way. The right way to do it is to continually probe defenses and have the Acadians jumping at shadows. Then if they get complacent and cease reacting, a feint becomes real, or if they commit one way, they lose the other while the attack they committed to fades away without damage. Or keep tugging Imperial resources between the systems and execute an ambush against the Imperial fleet in transit.

The blitz strategy that both the Ked Paddah and Eaton are using is not really the best way to make use of the distraction on the opposite side of the Empire. Although, IF the Ked Paddah are going to wait carefully until the Imperials commit to Gammon, then that would remove most of my critique. Timing would be everything. And Eaton would have to carefully keep the pressure on and draw the Imperial fleet away without actually costing her damage that prevents a later Gammon attack.

Shard · Apr 29, 2017

[X] Ixaria I - "Iron Dome"
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star

Force concentration, Durability Doubling, Unknown Sun Mentat thing..

This is nightmarish. I don't think the UFP even uses one of those defences (includ. ones we're not targetting) or an equivalent when defending their home systems.

nocarename · Apr 29, 2017

ThoughtMaster said:
How are we supposed to reproduce what is soon to be nothing but free floating atomic particles, and I doubt that any of the mentants are coherent enough to think of creating blueprints to allow their creations to be rebuilt if destroyed. I think it is safe to assume that all Lictori devices suffer from a severe case of no plans, no prototype, no backup.

Asking the menants we capture, if any, questions? I mean, I'm not expecting to get the best ones, but just about anything would be pretty nice.

Simon_Jester said:
We'd love to fight a pitched battle with the Licori fleet in deep space away from their stronger defense systems. But fighting one after our ships have been dragged lengthwise through a couple of giant thermonuclear minefields and smacked around by various interplanetary superweapons seems like less of a good idea.

It sure does make the commerce raiding to force engagements away from important systems look a lot less like the analyists and planners being a bunch of nervous nellies.

Steven Kodaly · Apr 29, 2017

[X] Ixaria I - "Iron Dome"
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star
I don't like rolling the dice on navigating minefields more than necessary (or at all, for that matter) but we need to make meaningful progress quickly before hostile reinforcements arrive.

ThoughtMaster · Apr 29, 2017

Shard said:
This is nightmarish. I don't think the UFP even uses one of those defences (includ. ones we're not targetting) or an equivalent when defending their home systems.

… I wonder how well things would work out if we are able to be at least half as devious when designing the defenses around the Bajoran wormhole to intercept the Dominion, or, in the short term, in the Gabriel expanse.

Simon_Jester · Apr 29, 2017

nocarename said:
It sure does make the commerce raiding to force engagements away from important systems look a lot less like the analyists and planners being a bunch of nervous nellies.

Honestly, given that this system isn't even on the same economic and industrial level as a "major homeworld" in the Federation, I am really hoping that Oneiros has quietly revised upward the level of defenses our own planets possess. I'm going to get very cranky if it turns out that one component sub-faction of a minor random species can have this much layered defensive depth around a colony world, enough to give pause even to a squadron of powerful explorers with major frigate support... While Earth or Tellar or Amarkia turns out to have no defensive installations aside from its starbase.

Steven Kodaly said:
I don't like rolling the dice on navigating minefields more than necessary (or at all, for that matter) but we need to make meaningful progress quickly before hostile reinforcements arrive.

I really do not buy the hypothesis that we should expect a reinforcement wave to show up after we chew through the first set of defensive installations. The Ked Paddah would have to be grossly stupid to plan a seriously intended operation to capture the system if they expected that to be the case.

I can only assume most of the previous "battles of Ixaria" were probing attacks- because, again, it would be totally out of character for the proverbially cautious, conservative, prudent Ked Paddah to repeatedly attack such a powerfully defended star system that they had no realistic way of dislodging the defenses of. That's the kind of crap that you'd expect from the Klingons maybe, but not from the Ked Paddah.

Seriously, there is no reasonably safe strategy that enables us to secure control of the system and neutralize the bulk of the Ixira defenses in a single wave of attacks. All possible scenarios that have heavy imperial reinforcements arrive after the first wave of attacks result in us either having to retreat, or us fighting at a very severe disadvantage. Unless this whole thing is just Oneiros presenting us with an insoluble problem so he can laugh at us,* we must necessarily be expecting an opportunity to launch a second wave of follow-up attacks to thin out the defenses further before a heavy reinforcing fleet shows up.
_________________

*...Which would be very out of character, for Thuir and the Ked Paddah to somehow not realize how bad an idea this battle is. Basically it would be turning all our characterization on its head specifically to screw us over, and I have literally never encountered anyone running any quest who would pull stuff like that, so I refuse to believe Oneiros would.

Jrin · Apr 30, 2017

Would love to have this kind of defence setup in Gabriel expanse, if go all out we can completely block 65 Gabriel and Legei system when we capture the system. Maybe an lesser version for Ariel V-8 and Deva.
The support installation's ships boost and weapons concept is quite useful in coving the system's approaches and defence. We should loot it for ideas and adapt it for our tech.

Say what's going on in Gabriel expanse, I mean with all this going on, is our member fleets taking up the exploration slack from Starfleet?
I really hope both our member fleets and Starfleet expanding instead of sitting tight building since this is a race for Gabriel Expanse. Always feel like we are taking the eyes off there.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 30, 2017

The thing that interests me the most is the system-wide sensor cloaking field.

It seems to prevent scouting the system properly from outside in addition to making combat inside the system a guessing game. It is a strategic-level asset rather than merely a tactical one. Two close supporting systems with these fields would make a hash of any offensive preparations.

Iron Wolf · Apr 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Seriously, there is no reasonably safe strategy that enables us to secure control of the system and neutralize the bulk of the Ixira defenses in a single wave of attacks. All possible scenarios that have heavy imperial reinforcements arrive after the first wave of attacks result in us either having to retreat, or us fighting at a very severe disadvantage. Unless this whole thing is just Oneiros presenting us with an insoluble problem so he can laugh at us,* we must necessarily be expecting an opportunity to launch a second wave of follow-up attacks to thin out the defenses further before a heavy reinforcing fleet shows up.

I would suspect, from a gameplay perspective, it makes more sense to have this be our chance to soften things up before the main assault, versus doing this in multiple waves until we can have our cake and eat it to. This is mildly supported by the text of the update.

Hence why I don't think Silent Repose is that important. If we are conducting multiple raids then Repose would have some importance.

cast2007 · Apr 30, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
I would suspect, from a gameplay perspective, it makes more sense to have this be our chance to soften things up before the main assault, versus doing this in multiple waves until we can have our cake and eat it to. This is mildly supported by the text of the update.

Hence why I don't think Silent Repose is that important. If we are conducting multiple raids then Repose would have some importance.

Yeah. I'm not totally sure if the Ked Paddah have been doing a Fabian Strategy (I.E. blow up the defenses as they can and wear them down via attrition tactics) or if they're just so stubborn that they've just assaulted the same place over and over again expecting the same result.

AKuz · Apr 30, 2017

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The thing that interests me the most is the system-wide sensor cloaking field.

It seems to prevent scouting the system properly from outside in addition to making combat inside the system a guessing game. It is a strategic-level asset rather than merely a tactical one. Two close supporting systems with these fields would make a hash of any offensive preparations.

I wonder if it just slowly gives everyone in the system cancer from ~particle effects~

Leila Hann · Apr 30, 2017

AKuz said:
I wonder if it just slowly gives everyone in the system cancer from ~particle effects~

If that's the case, there's no need for us to bother invading. Pity about the billion or so civilians though.

ThoughtMaster said:
… I wonder how well things would work out if we are able to be at least half as devious when designing the defenses around the Bajoran wormhole to intercept the Dominion, or, in the short term, in the Gabriel expanse.

Shard said:
This is nightmarish. I don't think the UFP even uses one of those defences (includ. ones we're not targetting) or an equivalent when defending their home systems.

And the Licori don't have anywhere near the conventional fleet assets that we do. One of a kind superweapons are their thing. This is unique to the Licori.

Simon_Jester · Apr 30, 2017

Put this way. I don't expect any Federation system to be defended by exotic superweapon arrays like this.

I do fondly imagine that we'd have defenses built to comparable scale in our key systems: multiple space stations with weapons that are capable of defending themselves against casual raids, mines that strongly deter an opponent from launching any raids that aren't pushed forward in force.

Although to be fair, the Licori have been mobilized on a war footing for years; many of the defenses we're seeing may not have even existed 5-10 years ago. We might have to drum up a raftload of engineering and industry teams and spend years building defenses like this for ourselves.

Iron Wolf said:
I would suspect, from a gameplay perspective, it makes more sense to have this be our chance to soften things up before the main assault, versus doing this in multiple waves until we can have our cake and eat it to. This is mildly supported by the text of the update.

Hence why I don't think Silent Repose is that important. If we are conducting multiple raids then Repose would have some importance.

If we only hit two or three targets, then get into a big tough fight at the main world and bad things happen, I am going to lose all respect for the Ked Paddah as military planners. That would be... massive flanderization of them, because it's taking a species that's explicitly advertised as "cautious" and saying "welp, we'll take one shot at thinning out the defenses, and then LEEROY JENKINS!" If they're only planning to take one shot at the defenses, then the correct plan for this operation is a raid, an attempt to sting them and damage them and then withdraw, to assess the effectiveness of our attack and the potential for doing it again in a week or two.

Because in a siege, you don't launch an all out bloody assault on the thickest, toughest spot in the enemy's defenses before you've neutralized the secondary supporting positions. And you sure don't launch the assault when all you've done is knock out only a few of the supporting positions.

cast2007 said:
Yeah. I'm not totally sure if the Ked Paddah have been doing a Fabian Strategy (I.E. blow up the defenses as they can and wear them down via attrition tactics) or if they're just so stubborn that they've just assaulted the same place over and over again expecting the same result.

Um... HISTORY NITPICK.

Quintus Fabius, whose nickname became "the lingerer" because of his methods against Hannibal, adopted a strategy of avoiding the enemy's strength, picking off any small groups of scouts or foragers they sent out. And of deliberately avoiding any direct conflict with Hannibal's main army. Basically, he invented guerilla warfare, although it was guerilla warfare backed up by an organized army that could stand up to anything short of an all-out assault by Hannibal's main army.

He was extremely persistent in following this strategy, even when his enemies within the Republic mocked him for it, but it was a good strategy, as proven by the fact that every time the Romans picked a more aggressive general to go out and fight Hannibal directly, they wound up getting multiple legions chopped up and served back to them with fava beans.

In fact, Quintus Fabius was the exemplar of a highly capable high-Nerve low-Aggression commander, and he utterly neutralized Hannibal's army in the process of proving it.

I would argue that this is somewhat different from what you picture the Ked Paddah as doing. It sounds to me more like the Ked Paddah repeatedly raided this system (probably how they know what all the defensive installations do), probably taking some losses in the process but never committing their forces to an aggressive, all-out battle that would risk destruction of a large share of their overall command.

AKuz said:
I wonder if it just slowly gives everyone in the system cancer from ~particle effects~

Thaaaat is a surprisingly plausible explanation for why nobody else in the history of Star Trek ever did this.

lbmaian · Apr 30, 2017

[X] Ixaria I - "Iron Dome"
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria Star

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Thaaaat is a surprisingly plausible explanation for why nobody else in the history of Star Trek ever did this.

Well, I feel it's more likely that this technology will quickly fall behind the tech curve as sensor technology develops. It works in the present because it was developed and implemented in the course of the war with the KP so far.

Leila Hann · Apr 30, 2017

So, when I read "iron dome" my first thought was Israel's smart missile defense system, but thinking more I wonder if this was meant as a shoutout to a certain superscience-based RTS game?

Iron Wolf · Apr 30, 2017

...You know, re-reading it @Simon_Jester, it looks like we're going to have multiple chances to strike, but each time we do we increase the chance that [or amount of] reinforcements that arrive. In that case I think it's wise to hit Silent Repose right now -- if we're dealing with figuring out our next set of raids and trying to ascertain where the reinforcements have been allocated. However, if the fleet strength is low in the system I think we gotta go now and hit three targets while resistance is at the lowest level.

I'd change my vote to swap Iron Dome for Silent Repose but I don't think that'd help beat "do nothing" for our third option.

Leila Hann said:
So, when I read "iron dome" my first thought was Israel's smart missile defense system, but thinking more I wonder if this was meant as a shoutout to a certain superscience-based RTS game?

WAIT THEN, FUCK

AKuz · Apr 30, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
...You know, re-reading it @Simon_Jester, it looks like we're going to have multiple chances to strike, but each time we do we increase the chance that [or amount of] reinforcements that arrive. In that case I think it's wise to hit Silent Repose right now -- if we're dealing with figuring out our next set of raids and trying to ascertain where the reinforcements have been allocated. However, if the fleet strength is low in the system I think we gotta go now and hit three targets while resistance is at the lowest level.

I'd change my vote to swap Iron Dome for Silent Repose but I don't think that'd help beat "do nothing" for our third option.

WAIT THEN, FUCK

Fuck, does this make the unknown Star Facility a Chronosphere dealy of some kind?

We need to go now. WE NEED TO GO NOW.

Simon_Jester · Apr 30, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
...You know, re-reading it @Simon_Jester, it looks like we're going to have multiple chances to strike, but each time we do we increase the chance that [or amount of] reinforcements that arrive. In that case I think it's wise to hit Silent Repose right now -- if we're dealing with figuring out our next set of raids and trying to ascertain where the reinforcements have been allocated. However, if the fleet strength is low in the system I think we gotta go now and hit three targets while resistance is at the lowest level.

I'd change my vote to swap Iron Dome for Silent Repose but I don't think that'd help beat "do nothing" for our third option.

Yes it would. More votes for "Silent Repose" will elevate Silent Repose's standing in the ranks, regardless of who casts them.

Personally... hm. I honestly don't think reinforcements will show up until after two waves of attacks, but that could still leave us seeing reinforcements inbound with minimal time to do anything about it (and a bunch of damaged ships from mines and dueling their armed stations into submission).

@Iron Wolf , you've convinced me.

[x] Ixaria Star
[X] Ixaria Prime - Moon Only (Silo Storage Centre)
[X] Ixaria VI - "Silent Repose"

AKuz said:
Fuck, does this make the unknown Star Facility a Chronosphere dealy of some kind?

We need to go now. WE NEED TO GO NOW.

I'm pretty sure the Licori, like the Gaeni, are incapable of participating in time travel. This is because any universe in which the Licori develop time travel is inherently going to lead to time paradoxes, and therefore cannot occur.

aeqnai · Apr 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
I'm pretty sure the Licori, like the Gaeni, are incapable of participating in time travel. This is because any universe in which the Licori develop time travel is inherently going to lead to time paradoxes, and therefore cannot occur.

Star Trek runs on exactly the kind of weird time travel logic that would let them propagate paradoxes into the main timeline. And in addition to the unknown nature of the Ixaria Star station, there's another piece of supporting evidence-- the only known reproducible method of time travel so far is star-based.

What's more, because of how seriously we treat that information, Thuir and the Ked Paddah don't know that.

AKuz · Apr 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
I'm pretty sure the Licori, like the Gaeni, are incapable of participating in time travel. This is because any universe in which the Licori develop time travel is inherently going to lead to time paradoxes, and therefore cannot occur.

Yes, maybe. But that doesn't mean we're not in that interim period as the universe sorts itself out and paradoxes and crazy shit happens subjectively. Like experiencing an Elder Scrolls' Dragon Break Event.

Wait. Lion! Blizzard! OOC TIME TRAVEL NONSENSE GUESS

*AKUZ SPASMS IN HORROR*

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Captain Kuznetsova attracts attention from DTI by looking up the Phrase "Licori + Time Travel" in multiple databases]

Godwinson · Apr 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Honestly, given that this system isn't even on the same economic and industrial level as a "major homeworld" in the Federation, I am really hoping that Oneiros has quietly revised upward the level of defenses our own planets possess. I'm going to get very cranky if it turns out that one component sub-faction of a minor random species can have this much layered defensive depth around a colony world, enough to give pause even to a squadron of powerful explorers with major frigate support... While Earth or Tellar or Amarkia turns out to have no defensive installations aside from its starbase.

I absolutely would not be surprised if it turned out that the defenses around Earth itself are dramatically weaker than this colony world of a minor power, simply because the UFP is consistently portrayed as being completely fucking stupid when it comes to anything related to security or conflict in any form.

AKuz · Apr 30, 2017

We know that member worlds have some form of fixed defences from Canon.

Earth has at least the "Mars Defence Perimeter" which is shown as a Cube blowing away three runabout sized ships... But we could just be seeing the aftermath of the Borg overrunning the network and these three brave fuckers are loaded to the gills with antimatter and praying to science that they can ram this big fucking cube straight on.

And Betazoid has defenses... that are described as out of date. Which does seem to make sense for a country that has only needed to worry about conventional attack on the scale of the Dominion War for about a year or two. The sudden arrival of the navy of a hostile T-.5 power came out of nowhere. Even then I can think of Betazed going "Oh, well, we can just count on Starfleet, increase their budget" and not expecting someone to cut across the UFP and deep into it's heart.

And then overall the Federation seems to rely on Starfleet meeting threats in deep space and taking care of it there. Just constantly sinking resources that would go into fixed defences into Starfleet instead.

V'ger was met outside of Sol, Wolf 359 was fought in deep space, a Battle Group Omega was planning to meet the Scimitar in deep space, they couldn't meet the whale probe in deep space because it kept setting their ships adrift. We constantly see Starfleet engaged in Battle in enemy systems, in deep space, or in uninhabited systems. It seems that Canon Starfleet has some sort of combination Frontier/Decisive Battle/ possibly Base Strike doctrine. They really really don't want war to happen at home and don't even plan for the worst, instead putting everything into stopping attackers before they reach inhabited areas.

And I mean it sort of makes sense, Starships are mobile after all, and instead of being worried about defences being taken out piecemeal you can just use those for ships instead and hit the enemy with a doomstack instead of a smaller fleet.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 30, 2017

I think we'd be highly foolish to expect to have multiple waves of attacks.

There are only a limited number of facilities. If we can hit three each wave successfully, we could almost completely nullify the systems's defenses in two waves. It would make choosing almost meaningless. I am certain that this phase we only get to pick three and no more.

random_npc · Apr 30, 2017

hey @OneirosTheWriter could we have the tactical situation cleared up some? there seems to be disagreement about what kind of reinforcements might show up, how the fleet is being divided and if we are going to be going straight for the homeworld after we hit the listed targets or not.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

One and Many

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a thirsty squirrel

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Nerdy Homu

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"Well, I've got nothing."

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