Onionjones
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I thought it was more like the archer is the only ship we have that does bulk cargo - or is that wrong
But the others still carry cargo
But the others still carry cargo
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My point of view this opens 2 options
Shuttle: Focus on maximise the brief role will probably necessitate further investment in engineering modules or medical to justify
Cargo: you are now a fast armoured truck can stuff the ship with anything else. Also you gain the possibility of flotilla tender role for long patrol mission per WOG justifying for brief.
[X] Expanded Cargo Bay
Grants unique ability with high tactical opens up strategic opens of extended patrol or raid with tender capacity.
For emergency response just stuff a pre fab field anything and drop it on planet. Hospital, food silo, factory, shelter, bunker you need it we drop it. Also works for emergency evacuation in a pinch.
Shuttle: Focus on maximise the brief role will probably necessitate further investment in engineering modules or medical to justify
Cargo: you are now a fast armoured truck can stuff the ship with anything else. Also you gain the possibility of flotilla tender role for long patrol mission per WOG justifying for brief.
[X] Expanded Cargo Bay
Grants unique ability with high tactical opens up strategic opens of extended patrol or raid with tender capacity.
For emergency response just stuff a pre fab field anything and drop it on planet. Hospital, food silo, factory, shelter, bunker you need it we drop it. Also works for emergency evacuation in a pinch.
The Archer is the only ship we've got thus far that can do bulk and oversized cargoes, most of its bulk cargoes are however going to be civilian support focused (especially now) whereas the Federation with its cargo bay can do oversized cargoes.
Think of it as the difference between a container ship and a cargo plane, especially a plane like the AN-225 Mriya or the Boeing dreamlifter. It can't carry as much as the former (nor parts that may be as individually as large, though the Super Guppy of the early Cold War carried individual stages of the Saturn V), but it can carry all sorts of large cargoes that a regular transport plane can't very fast.
Onionjones
The LCAF's best social general
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got it - so in this comparison the Miranda or Newton is more like a 777FThe Archer is the only ship we've got thus far that can do bulk and oversized cargoes, most of its bulk cargoes are however going to be civilian support focused (especially now) whereas the Federation with its cargo bay can do oversized cargoes.
Think of it as the difference between a container ship and a cargo plane, especially a plane like the AN-225 Mriya or the Boeing dreamlifter. It can't carry as much as the former (nor parts that may be as individually as large, though the Super Guppy of the early Cold War carried individual stages of the Saturn V), but it can carry all sorts of large cargoes that a regular transport plane can't very fast.
I think a better comparison here is the Federation is like the algol class though
(if we go for cargo here) though that didn't get many orders at all
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[X] Expanded Shuttlebay
VOTE
[X] Expanded Cargo Bay
Genuinely conflicted, and Ive read the arguments twice
But since the Miranda is doubing down on shutt bays, and the update identifies a need for secure, high speed medium volume logistics in Starfleet, Im voting for more cargo
I can see several uses for this on the frontier besides the obvious emergency resupply of new colonies
Also?
Cargo space forstealing salvaging enemy ship components after killing or disabing them; first you shoot them dead, then you loot the derelict so that Intelligence can steal useful tips, and tell you how to kill them better
I mean, good odds it can carry the important parts of a B'rel pattern Bird of Prey in pieces in its cargo bay after killing it
Or good chunks of an Orion raider
Cut it into pieces with phasers, load and deliver to a Starfleet base
[X] Expanded Cargo Bay
Genuinely conflicted, and Ive read the arguments twice
But since the Miranda is doubing down on shutt bays, and the update identifies a need for secure, high speed medium volume logistics in Starfleet, Im voting for more cargo
I can see several uses for this on the frontier besides the obvious emergency resupply of new colonies
- Defense satellites and outpost components for claiming important new systems like dilithium mines on our frontiers
- Deploying military surveillance arrays for monitoring important volumes of space
- Moving large volumes of samples from frontier systems to core worlds
- Secure transport of high-priority cargo that cant fall into enemy hands
Also?
Cargo space for
I mean, good odds it can carry the important parts of a B'rel pattern Bird of Prey in pieces in its cargo bay after killing it
Or good chunks of an Orion raider
Cut it into pieces with phasers, load and deliver to a Starfleet base
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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I feel like I've said this before, but remember that cargo-lift capability is not generally intended for routine deliveries. Space travel in Trek is extremely slow, and most places can be expected to be self-sufficient - or at least stockpiled enough for long-term rationing. Cargo is primarily useful for supplying initial materials for construction/establishment, supplies sufficient for rationing until a colony can get self-sufficient, and emergency transport of the same. While we do have a constant need for cargo vessels, we should keep in mind it's that way because it's nice to have, rather than because it's a critical shortage.
Also, keep in mind that there's almost certainly entire fleets worth of civilian/merchant marine transporters putting around Federation space in fusion craft at low warp, below our level of abstraction.
Also, keep in mind that there's almost certainly entire fleets worth of civilian/merchant marine transporters putting around Federation space in fusion craft at low warp, below our level of abstraction.
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[X] Expanded Shuttlebay
If the Federation is going to act as the lynchpin of a task force in combat, it makes sense to make it the lynchpin of the task force outside of combat, too.
If the Federation is going to act as the lynchpin of a task force in combat, it makes sense to make it the lynchpin of the task force outside of combat, too.
On the fence regarding which facility to choose though.
On one had Expanded Cargo offers the more unique capability since the Miranda's cargo hold is unlikely to be able to handle extra large stuff, not to mention the more numerous Miranda's already being able to carry as many shuttles as an Expanded Shuttle Bay Federation.
The Federation with it's 6.8 Efficient Cruise and 7.4 Max Cruise is also the fastest ship we've got when it comes to fuel efficient long distance travel and should accomplish far more per hull than the otherwise cheaper but much slower Archer (6.8 Efficient Cruise is twice as fast as the Archer's 5.2 Efficient Cruise and 0.6 Warp Factor faster than it's 6.2 Max cruise).
That capability should free up some Archers from (relative to civilian haulers) high speed cargo hauling duty and let them instead focus on leveraging their incredible engineering capabilities to accelerate the Federation's rebuilding and expansion projects.
The Federation would also be effectively immune to raiders barring an entire small taskforce or multiple modern capital ships deciding to jump it.
That said, it is probably massively overkill for pirates given the fact that even the Archer's didn't seem to have any issues contending with pirates from it's retrospective, not to mention that the far smaller Attenborough had to sandbag in order to convince an Orion pirate ship that it could take it on.
All the cargo hauling would however means that it's probably spending less time on the frontier as it needs to make trips back to the core for new cargo, leading to more Miranda's on the frontier to pick up that slack.
While the Miranda should be able to handle anything short of a K'tinga I'd much rather be in a Federation than a Miranda if I'm contesting a Dilithium rich world against the Klingons, Gorn, or Tholians since barring a major war ships are probably going to be on their own most of the time rather than in battlegroups.
With that in mind, the Expanded Hangar is explicitly spelled out as the superior option for Emergency response which would be most common on the frontier.
The extra shuttles are also mentioned as being useful for damage control and assisting other ships which synergizes well with this ship's role as a fleet anchor.
Given the fact that neither this ship nor the Miranda are expected to carry anywhere near as many shuttles as the Archer (they have 20 shuttles each) having both ships capable of carrying a decent amount of shuttles should allow fleets to be less reliant on Archer's for fleet support and repair jobs which should be the most dangerous job an Archer gets assigned especially with more Klingon ships now having Warp 8 engines.
On one had Expanded Cargo offers the more unique capability since the Miranda's cargo hold is unlikely to be able to handle extra large stuff, not to mention the more numerous Miranda's already being able to carry as many shuttles as an Expanded Shuttle Bay Federation.
The Federation with it's 6.8 Efficient Cruise and 7.4 Max Cruise is also the fastest ship we've got when it comes to fuel efficient long distance travel and should accomplish far more per hull than the otherwise cheaper but much slower Archer (6.8 Efficient Cruise is twice as fast as the Archer's 5.2 Efficient Cruise and 0.6 Warp Factor faster than it's 6.2 Max cruise).
That capability should free up some Archers from (relative to civilian haulers) high speed cargo hauling duty and let them instead focus on leveraging their incredible engineering capabilities to accelerate the Federation's rebuilding and expansion projects.
The Federation would also be effectively immune to raiders barring an entire small taskforce or multiple modern capital ships deciding to jump it.
That said, it is probably massively overkill for pirates given the fact that even the Archer's didn't seem to have any issues contending with pirates from it's retrospective, not to mention that the far smaller Attenborough had to sandbag in order to convince an Orion pirate ship that it could take it on.
All the cargo hauling would however means that it's probably spending less time on the frontier as it needs to make trips back to the core for new cargo, leading to more Miranda's on the frontier to pick up that slack.
While the Miranda should be able to handle anything short of a K'tinga I'd much rather be in a Federation than a Miranda if I'm contesting a Dilithium rich world against the Klingons, Gorn, or Tholians since barring a major war ships are probably going to be on their own most of the time rather than in battlegroups.
With that in mind, the Expanded Hangar is explicitly spelled out as the superior option for Emergency response which would be most common on the frontier.
Given the Federation's superior combat capabilities and greater room for non-combat facilities it would be desirable to keep them on the frontier where those features would be leveraged the most rather than regularly transiting between the core and frontier.
The extra shuttles are also mentioned as being useful for damage control and assisting other ships which synergizes well with this ship's role as a fleet anchor.
Given the fact that neither this ship nor the Miranda are expected to carry anywhere near as many shuttles as the Archer (they have 20 shuttles each) having both ships capable of carrying a decent amount of shuttles should allow fleets to be less reliant on Archer's for fleet support and repair jobs which should be the most dangerous job an Archer gets assigned especially with more Klingon ships now having Warp 8 engines.
As with the Expanded Cargo option this could free up more Archers to do other tasks and also has the bonus of keeping them out of potential harms way.
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darkstarling
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I think Cargo is absolutely a good choice. My problem is that Shuttles are also a good choice... that synergizes with our design brief AND offers better synergy down the line while not playing to this classes strengths. If it helps, I promise next design I'll advocate for cargo.
I also want this ship to be really good at whatever it does. That's how it justifies its costs. And the Federation is a Fleet Anchor set up for emergency response. Shuttles take it from good at that - it's got the firepower in the right configuration, and the right nacelle configuration - to GREAT with tangible support to the rest of the fleet. And there are a lot of other modules that synergize with this sort of role.
Cargo is a good capacity, but it's leaving future synergy on the table. There's not a lot that combos with cargo, and in a design that MUST be comboriffic we can't afford it.
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Fabrication bay. Medical bay. Chemical research lab. Computer core.
Essentially taking advantage of the ability to bring lots of stuff like industrial materials and chemical feedstocks and then assemble them into things like filters, facilities, medium complexity equipment, and chemicals, and then send them down.
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Not computer core at least. We took computer core on the Archer and it did nothing even with mega fabrication.
The shuttlebay doesn't really help other members of its task force outside of combat, though? The shuttle bay is very nice when something has gone wrong, but if everything is going as expected the cargo would allow it to carry supplies for other vessels as well, potentially extending their range. Especially if it's used as an ad-hoc fuel carrier.
What potential synergies do you anticipate? I think we'll probably be offered something like the Archer's choice between a triage deck and a fabrication facility, and one of those is going to see much more use. I don't disagree that a shuttlebay is useful, I just think that it's mostly useful when things have gone wrong. And a ship that hard focuses emergency response has an issue that it's just not very useful if there's no emergencies happening, which is why I keep describing it as a glorified patrol boat.
Which is again a perfectly fine thing to be, but this thing is comically expensive and we need it to have a really obvious non-tactical use case, or else I fear that we simply won't build enough of them to matter. I don't think Starfleet tactical is going to be able to swing many high end heavy cruisers on the premise that they'll patrol around the borders and occasionally help a colony.
Changing my vote, hope I don't regret it.
[X] Expanded Shuttlebay
[X] Expanded Shuttlebay
You're comparing apples to oranges, especially since we don't know if the cargo bay is going to be 3 or 4 decks tall.
It's too small.
[X] Expanded Shuttlebay
Is it smaller than the cargo pod the archer employs, yes, is it completely incapable of performing the duties the archer does (to an extent) with this volume? No.
And if I recall correctly, the cargo pod requires specilise facilities to load and unload (at least in a way that isn't dump everything), whereas this extra-large cargo bay will be able to do loading and unloading completely by itself with the cargo bee compliment.
Something that will enhance its utility quite a bit, especially out in the frontier.
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darkstarling
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Actually on second thought I meant an Indiaman - a heavily armed ship for transporting valuable cargo and laughing at pirates. The closest thing the Federation has to a chinese treasure ship is the Enterprise D.
I'm taking the position that there is always going to be something going wrong. This is the era of Those Old Scientists, when a colony of a million or a billion can just disappear and it's tragic but we can't dwell because we need to keep it from happening again. Straight from incidents a
If that's the high level crises, there have to be a thousand lower level emergencies every day that we simply don't see because we're busy dealing with the Nomads and Doomsday Machines. And while colonies will usually survive they could do it a whole lot better if they knew Starfleet was coming.
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Don't be silly. We want to put a Weber of torpedoes in there.
(Well, the people that want the cargo bay want torps in there. Though I suppose we could strap a torpedo to a shuttle...)
The shuttles help with space search & rescue, and with stabilizing other ships.
So a task force with a Federation could bailey-wire damaged ships so they can limp home that would otherwise have to be abandoned, and rescue the crew off ships that can't limp off.
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[X] Expanded Cargo Bay