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[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Some quick napkin math tells me that this will net us literally three times the Multi-Target Rating of the Miranda. That's good enough for me at just over twice the cost.
 
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

We know the D7 has a higher sprint so some ships will be able to keep up with us at warp so 2 aft torps to make them go away, also makes it so if they are coming behind the Feddie it can manuver to strike with 2 aft torps instead of 1 or none. And going prototype here means our next ship might have these as a standard option making it cheaper.
 
Lohjak said:
Turning our 160-170 cost heavy cruiser with excellent range and speed into a ship that spends 90% of its time sitting at planets for surveys does not seem like an ideal use of those expensive nacelles and warp drive.
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also remember this warning

Sayle said:
No, but don't dump useful stuff for speculatively useful science facilities.
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don't make a fancy science ship out of this, though dilithium for border patrols and for when it's delivering supplies into newly claimed areas seems like a solid bet

[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]
 
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[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Godwinson said:
Given the costs, it'd be a question of how the Fed handles two Mirandas.

Because they went with a short warp core and an in-line deflector, sacrificing sprint speed for reduced size and cost. Given that Max Warp is only useful for 12 hour jaunts at a time, this is, in fact, a good decision for a ship that's intended for patrols and massed fleet actions, since the only thing sprint is good for is immediate pursuit/retreat.
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Tellingly If the Fed gets its Alpha off first it turns one of the Mirandas to scrap instantly, the return alpha doesn't crack the feds shields, allowing it to zoom out and recharge shields before repeating the previous attack.
 
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[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

[X] Two Forward, One Aft (Rapid) [36/108 Damage]/[18/56 Damage] [Cost: 185]

Big boom is good.
 
Karugus said:
I feel like all the Miranda detractors might need to reconsider. As far as I'm aware, that's basically Sayle's take on the canon Miranda, and the canon Miranda was such a useful, cost effective, viable platform that it was spammed in obscene numbers and would never die no matter how much we fought to replace it.

We might not like it, but as far as Starfleet is concerned- the Miranda is a fantastic design. So looking at the Miranda to see what it does well is a decent way for us to look at what Starfleet likes. That's not to say the Miranda should be recreated from here on out- but we should look at what the customer likes and assume there's a reason why the customer likes the design, regardless of what we think.
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The canon Miranda was.
This isnt canon though, and both the technological and geopolitical state of affairs are quite different as well
I would not assume that Starfleet will hold it in the same regard as canon

Doesnt make it a bad ship
But its shortcomings are upfront and obvious, and for a star navy that has to cover an increasing volume of space, its not something they can just handwave

As it stands it looks very good for the interior of the Federation;
Towards the colonies and any new members, the Federation's advantages are just going to grow
Lohjak said:
The Miranda will theoretically become cheaper with mature tech, but with how many will be built they'll definitely be refit with new weapons once the tech hits standard, so it probably won't benefit as much.
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The Miranda appears to be built with mostly mature tech though
Hence the cost savings
Aint dropping much from here

Sayle said:
Well those numbers aren't right. My numbers in the sheet were right, but looks like they were somehow transcribed wrong into the update. Which is weird. It's been corrected in the post to 34 sustain and 58 burst.
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Thank you or the correction
So yeah, it looks like a Feddie will 2v1 a pair of Mirandas and walk away

Lavaflow said:
Personally I'm think Type IV, 2/1 or /20
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If you look upthread, Sayle says multitarget rating uses all your weapons including aft torpedos
 
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]
The cost saving of either of the other type 4 options aren't good enough to justify under arming the aft.
 
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Yeah, prototyping the new torps makes sense to me - and this puts us only slightly more than double the Miranda's cost, for a significant bump in firepower and the greater durability and utility of the larger hull.
 
[X] Two Forward, One Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage]/[12/36 Damage] [Cost: 164]

[X] Two Forward (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 159]

two forward one aft option has been added if you look at the threadmark
 
Favoring either of the Front+Rear Type-4 Launchers.

[X] Two Forward, One Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage]/[12/36 Damage] [Cost: 164]
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Wootius said:
To be clear, Standard parts become cheaper in 2260. That'll help both. 2265 is me guessing on the Feddie having a modest impact on the move to standard costs for the prototypes only it has, which with the 50-70+ cost of weapons will really help it.
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Something else to consider in the Feddie's favor is that Starfleet's only really paying for the Feddie's weapons loadout once in the coming decades rather than needing to do it twice.

The big "New Fleet Program" refit that is supposed to occur in 2275 involves refitting older ships like the Excalibur and Attenborough/Atwater with the Feddie's current weapons loadout.
Sayle said:
Regardless of losses the Excalibur entered its fourth decade with enough hulls to justify a refit which replaced or improved the shields, onboard laboratories, warp coils, phasers, and built out the torpedo systems for heavier Type-4 warheads. The improvement in capabilities and performance kept the ships in service for another three decades before larger vessels and improvements in basic technology made keeping the Excalibur active an increasingly costly proposition in personnel and upkeep.
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Sayle said:
While consisting of a small stable of vessels, the ship was nonetheless refit as part of the New Fleet Program in 2275, replacing the hull plating, nacelles, and phaser banks. The scientific facilities were likewise modernised, guaranteeing them another half-century of use. However by 2320 wear-and-tear concerns were beginning to spell the end of its expeditionary work and for its final decades it was restricted to orbital work only.
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Whereas the Miranda (no way Starfleet's not procuring a bunch just because they are better than the Newtons in every way besides sprint) requires that they pay for both the initial weapons and then pay again when they swap them out to the Feddie's Type-V Phasers and Type-4 Torpedo Launchers.

That isn't a small amount saved even if stuff like Nacelles and Warp Cores, and Shields, are still going to need replacing.

Some quick napkin math using the below weapons loadout and costs from this table:
Sayle said:
Six phasers covering dorsal/ventral, one phaser bank covering dorsal aft (actually two individual half-banks either side, but mechanically speaking), two forward and aft normal torpedoes.
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Initial Cost
Phasers: 7*3=21
Torpedoes: 2.25*4=9
Total: 21+9=30
Refit Cost
Phasers Type-V: 7*4=28
Torpedoes Type-4: 4*4=16
Total: 28+16=42
Refit+Initial Costs: 30+42=72

Compared to the initial tranche of Federation Class Ships:
Phasers: 10*5=50
Torpedoes (4 Type-4's): 4*5=20
Total: 70
So it ends up that the Miranda's are going end up costing marginally more weapons wise per hull for their initial ~3 decades of service.
 
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Moratorium's up
Sayle said:
For Starfleet the war had been a trial by fire against a superior opponent with difficult lessons. The front-heavy armaments which had been increasingly favoured for starships of all types had shown serious weaknesses against more maneuverable Klingon craft, and much of the war had turned on the question of strategic range and speed. Had the fleet been operating at a higher warp factor then lines of defense and strongpoints could have been established much further forward and the loss of Arcadia could have been prevented entirely.

That said, the usefulness of the high-cost and high-performance Excalibur-class could not be overstated. The war had thoroughly discredited a once-popular viewpoint that the future was to be found in light cruisers which could be inexpensively built to carry out the myriad of duties needed in the ever-expanding Federation and then consolidated in the event of warfare. While there was still a place for specialist vessels, military theory in the coming years would be more focused on how to deal with the long-range deployments and individual engagements necessitated by deep interstellar warfare.
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VOTE
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Aft weapons contribute to our multi-target rating
So that means that a savings of 5 points is not worth reducing aft torpedoes from 2 to 1
 
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

Means we can engage multiple targets more effectively, and future-proofs us for discouraging pursuit when the Fed is no longer the big stick around and needs to pick its battles more carefully.
 
Onionjones said:
Once the Miranda gets its refit that should fix most of its problems with speed, right?

Because outside of that it seems like a great ship
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Unfortunately the current problem is our cores are too much for our nacelles. The Miranda responded to this by essentially cheaping out on their core until their core's max output matched the nacelles max sustained output.

But when we upgrade our nacelles the Miranda is still going to have a miniature half crippled warp core.

No wonder the Miranda needs to be saved all the time. It essentially can't run and won't be ABLE to run anytime soon.

Meanwhile the Federation focused on maxing the performance of the nacelles and overbuilding nacelles. When we get the next nacelle I would not be supposed to see them slotted in 2 per ship, removing the double nacelle because the double nacelle is no longer needed.

And if not the Federation is going to be able to redline it's already oversized core and have nacelles that can actually ISE that power without exploding.

And worse it isn't clear the mini core will be comparable with the eventual warp 9 core we designed the standard warp 8 core to be comparable with. It may be completely left in the dist of history because of the compromises made to make it cheap.
 
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uju32 said:
Aint dropping much from here
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The Miranda will get hull, shield tonnage, and engines at discount in 2260 with the Feddie. Given those are gonna be ~38 of it's costs it'll get a nice 9.5 point drop while the Feddie will get ~16 points off. For a second procurement in 2260 -2270 the Miranda will maximize its cost edge at 45% of the cost of a Feddie. I expect a very large order of them to start the Miranda plague.

It'll take till the 2265, or 2270 if we're unlucky, when it'll get another 18.5 cost off for a large Feddie order but I'm modestly more optimistic about it happening now.
 
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[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

I can kinda see the strategic calculus here.

Seed the Federation interior with Miranda's, and the Excaliburs and Federations are the ones to react to the deathstacking to serve as anchors for those massed battles.

The Miranda's would basically be chaff/screening forces to match lighter ships, while a Federation or Excalibur clean sweep the enemies high cards

Edit: So a frontier defense would be something like Two local Mirandas backed up by an Excalibur or a Federation against any larger raiding force
 
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LOLROFL said:
Favoring either of the Front+Rear Type-4 Launchers.

[X] Two Forward, One Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage]/[12/36 Damage] [Cost: 164]
[X] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]


Something else to consider in the Feddie's favor is that Starfleet's only really paying for the Feddie's weapons loadout once in the coming decades rather than needing to do it twice.

The big "New Fleet Program" refit that is supposed to occur in 2275 involves refitting older ships like the Excalibur and Attenborough/Atwater with the Feddie's current weapons loadout.


Whereas the Miranda (no way Starfleet's not procuring a bunch just because they are better than the Newtons in every way besides sprint) requires that they pay for both the initial weapons and then pay again when they swap them out to the Feddie's Type-V Phasers and Type-4 Torpedo Launchers.

That isn't a small amount saved even if stuff like Nacelles and Warp Cores, and Shields, are still going to need replacing.

Some quick napkin math using the below weapons loadout and costs from this table:

Initial Cost
Phasers: 7*3=21
Torpedoes: 2.25*4=9
Total: 21+9=30
Refit Cost
Phasers Type-V: 7*4=28
Torpedoes Type-4: 4*4=16
Total: 28+16=42
Refit+Initial Costs: 30+42=72

Compared to the initial tranche of Federation Class Ships:
Phasers: 10*5=50
Torpedoes (4 Type-4's): 4*5=20
Total: 70
So it ends up that the Miranda's are going end up costing marginally more weapons wise per hull for their initial ~3 decades of service.
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And yet critically, they're cheaper right now, when Starfleet has a desperate need for ships to perform basic patrol and service missions.
 
Onionjones said:
But if we have dilithium prospecting we have definite orders with the Saladin being decommissioned
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Wootius said:
dilithium for border patrols and for when it's delivering supplies into newly claimed areas seems like a solid bet
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You can't just scan a planet for dilithium, though. You have to conduct a proper geological survey first, and then if the survey turns up dilithium you can figure out if it's worth extracting using the module:
Sayle said:
Last is next to main engineering, which could be used for a specialist dilithium laboratory. This would allow the Galileo to evaluate dilithium deposits on-site during its surveys rather than marking them for later investigation. Alternatively the space could be set aside for a more general geosciences suite which could accomplish more work overall but lacking the specificity of the specialist equipment needed for dilithium analysis.
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Putting dilithium analysis on this ship doesn't make sense unless it's also a planetary survey vessel like the Kea, but that's a role which involves a whole lot of sitting around a planet and not a lot of fast cruises that we need to take advantage of all those expensive warp votes.
 
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