Starfleet Design Bureau

I mean.. the point of a prototype is that all the issues are things you fix in the subsequent designs, isn't it? Like, the cost is fairly clear, the ship with the Prototype design is going to comparatively suck, but that's for the benefit of later ships who.. don't have to deal with the suckiness.
From my experience working with prototypes IRL, it depends. Once you have a working prototype, sometimes that lets you help iron out flaws in later designs. But sometimes you're just stuck with the flaws– the compromises you made to get the prototype working are just too time-consuming or complicated to get rid of.
 
With discussions on how to rework the tech advancement process going around, I figure I'd throw my hat into the ring as well; depending on what kind of failure a given experimental system has, perhaps the option of refining/rerolling a single aspect of it (say, size or thrust in the case of the impulse thrusters) could crop up in ships as many as two or three designs down the line (or more, at Sayle's discretion). The choice could even be offered to do one or the other (do you try to make a smaller thruster with the same thrust work, or do you try to dial the thrust up to match the current size?).

It's a way to make daring and falling short with this class potentially lead into at least somewhat unique designs in the future for sub-systems.

My feelings are as follows:

1. Next-Generation Tech is always better.
2. Even rolling badly on Next-Generation tech is always better.

Therefore:

1. The current system trades immediate improvement/tech advancement for opportunity cost.

You could get superior technology compared to canon, but you probably won't. You are actually more likely to get worse technology than canon. But since you still get access to the tech ahead-of-time, what it basically means is you get an immediate capability boost for the cost of probably having inferior technology in the usual lifetime of the tech. So for the engines you'd get better engines than expected for 2220-2235, and worse engines for 2235-2265 or something.

So in that sense the whole 'roll for decrease/increase' performance is a bit deceptive. That's just a bit of wiggle on the process. The staging just means that the closer you get to the ordinary introduction date, the less worse the technology is meant to be.

Honestly just having a 'rush technology' mechanic would probably be a more transparent and immediately understandable version of the current system.


So what are alternative versions. The way I see it there are a couple of options.

1. Technology is introduced and goes from prototype (early)->standard->mature technology with incremental improvements over time. Maybe the incentive when you have a mature technology is that it's close-performance and notably cheaper than an early introduction of prototype Next-gen tech. Maybe for the Ambassador-class you want to use a super-charged Excelsior-class impulse engine because it's 50% the cost, even if one of those fancy new thrusters from Avidyne gives you +25% thrust and pushes you up the tech tree.

2. Like the current system you can gamble on technology early, and those rolls are set for the ship you build. Then with each new ship, the underlying tech is refined stage-by-stage. So you roll on the Type-3 and it's a giant fuckoff engine that underperforms. Well the Halley is stuck with that. But the next ship has fixed the size issue down to a normal footprint, even if it's having issues with thrust still. Then the third ship is all smooth sailing. The catch for that will be that you don't get positive bonuses anymore. All tech will eventually have zero penalties, but no extra bonuses.

I welcome more suggestions: I wouldn't have considered the incremental improvement model otherwise. As it stands the three in consideration are:

1. The current system, just more transparent/rushing technology framing.
2. Technology improves over its lifetime, with next-generation leaps being less potent and more expensive.
3. Current system, but no bonuses and components normalize over time.
 
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[X] Type-3 Impulse Thruster [Theoretical] (Three Success Rolls: Size -> Thrust -> Prototype Performance)
 
1. Technology is introduced and goes from prototype (early)->standard->mature technology with incremental improvements over time. Maybe the incentive when you have a mature technology is that it's close-performance and notably cheaper than an early introduction of prototype Next-gen tech. Maybe for the Ambassador-class you want to use a super-charged Excelsior-class impulse engine because it's 50% the cost, even if one of those fancy new thrusters from Avidyne gives you +25% thrust and pushes you up the tech tree.

2. Like the current system you can gamble on technology early, and those rolls are set for the ship you build. Then with each new ship, the underlying tech is refined stage-by-stage. So you roll on the Type-3 and it's a giant fuckoff engine that underperforms. Well the Halley is stuck with that. But the next ship has fixed the size issue down to a normal footprint, even if it's having issues with thrust still. Then the third ship is all smooth sailing. The catch for that will be that you don't get positive bonuses anymore. All tech will eventually have zero penalties, but no extra bonuses.

Of the two presented, I think option 1 is a solid choice moving forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see it doing is making it so that the budget-minded amount us have an incentive to pick a standard or mature technology if we want to invest more heavily in other areas, while those of us who want to push the limits (or the budget-minded who've decided to invest in this area) can see the tech tree advance earlier than usual. I imagine the prototypes would come with a few more drawbacks than just cost, and I'd think that small 'stat' bonuses or rises to the tech could come from repeated use until it's a mature tech, but I'd understand if the aim is simplicity as much as verisimilitude.
 
Of the two presented, I think option 1 is a solid choice moving forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see it doing is making it so that the budget-minded amount us have an incentive to pick a standard or mature technology if we want to invest more heavily in other areas, while those of us who want to push the limits (or the budget-minded who've decided to invest in this area) can see the tech tree advance earlier than usual. I imagine the prototypes would come with a few more drawbacks than just cost, and I'd think that small 'stat' bonuses or rises to the tech could come from repeated use until it's a mature tech, but I'd understand if the aim is simplicity as much as verisimilitude.
I dislike removing the element of randomness, it makes it feel less like we're working things out and more like we're getting premade slots from other places, which might in some ways be more realistic, but it leads to less interesting quirks in the ships.

We'd not have all the memes about Yoyodyne if we'd started under that system.
 
I welcome more suggestions: I wouldn't have considered the incremental improvement model otherwise. As it stands the three in consideration are:

1. The current system, just more transparent/rushing technology framing.
2. Technology improves over its lifetime, with next-generation leaps being less potent and more expensive.
3. Current system, but no bonuses and components normalize over time.

If we went for 2, whenever we do a new ship and are choosing the subsystems, would there be a performance update on the various previous systems. Either a percentage based performance improvement or something that was eg; 30% below predicted performance is now only 10% below, with further development ongoing.
This would be a lot more natural as I have wondered if there is ongoing improvement to our choices in the background we just weren't aware of?
 
I dislike removing the element of randomness, it makes it feel less like we're working things out and more like we're getting premade slots from other places, which might in some ways be more realistic, but it leads to less interesting quirks in the ships.

I imagine we could still roll to see whether a given component is 'better', 'average', or 'worse', but I think adding the 'repeated use at least lessens the negative effects we get' would help take the sting out of 'well, we rolled poorly so we're stuck with a crappier piece of tech than even the worst example of it in canon until we let the next one/version bake for much longer than it did in canon' while still giving Sayle some leeway to keep some quirkiness inherent to a piece of technology.
 
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[X] Type-2 Impulse Thruster (Type-3: Theoretical -> Experimental, Size: Standard)
 
1. Technology is introduced and goes from prototype (early)->standard->mature technology with incremental improvements over time. Maybe the incentive when you have a mature technology is that it's close-performance and notably cheaper than an early introduction of prototype Next-gen tech. Maybe for the Ambassador-class you want to use a super-charged Excelsior-class impulse engine because it's 50% the cost, even if one of those fancy new thrusters from Avidyne gives you +25% thrust and pushes you up the tech tree.

2. Like the current system you can gamble on technology early, and those rolls are set for the ship you build. Then with each new ship, the underlying tech is refined stage-by-stage. So you roll on the Type-3 and it's a giant fuckoff engine that underperforms. Well the Halley is stuck with that. But the next ship has fixed the size issue down to a normal footprint, even if it's having issues with thrust still. Then the third ship is all smooth sailing. The catch for that will be that you don't get positive bonuses anymore. All tech will eventually have zero penalties, but no extra bonuses.
The first could work I think, but the second feels like the combination of "even a poor roll is still better than current tech" with "poor roll penalties will go away eventually" is still going to result in people voting to take every new tech they can.

I still prefer the current system with a big clarification post that taking tech before it's in even the prototype stage is meant to be much riskier, but if you're worried about it being too harsh still maybe you could replace the big scary -25% with a second -10%? Maybe a little bit higher if you think that's not enough for the intended risk but I wouldn't put it above two -15%s. A lower penalty at max feels like it will make it much more intuitive that even if it is a little worse than it could have been if we let it cook, it will still be better than the current generation of parts, and probably isn't going to be off-putting enough to prevent people for voting for even earlier tech if they feel like the design could really use it given that on average each individual roll will have nothing bad happen.

On the flip side that kind of penalty is still something that's going to be felt if the roll does come up poor, and making it permanent means that there will be solid reasoning to argue for not taking it until it's moved out of Experimental at least if we don't think the current design really needs that extra capability.
 
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I imagine we could still roll to see whether a given component is 'better', 'average', or 'worse', but I think adding the 'repeated use at least lessens the negative effects we get' would help take the sting out of 'well, we rolled poorly so we're stuck with a crappier piece of tech than even the worst example of it in canon until we let the next one/version bake for much longer than it did in canon' while still giving Sayle some leeway to keep some quirkiness inherent to a piece of technology.
At that point yeah, I'd be happy, maybe with 1-2 being worse 3-5 being the same and 6 being better so it's weighted towards the negative just a little.
 
1. The current system, just more transparent/rushing technology framing.
2. Technology improves over its lifetime, with next-generation leaps being less potent and more expensive.
3. Current system, but no bonuses and components normalize over time.
I'd say the current system, it's fine IMO it's just a matter of reframing things so it's more explicit that tech rushes have potential serious consequences.
You could get superior technology compared to canon, but you probably won't. You are actually more likely to get worse technology than canon. But since you still get access to the tech ahead-of-time, what it basically means is you get an immediate capability boost for the cost of probably having inferior technology in the usual lifetime of the tech. So for the engines you'd get better engines than expected for 2220-2235, and worse engines for 2235-2265 or something.
One note WRT this is that it does feel like our current tech rate is fairly slow and we would be using the same components for a long time, which makes the potential of a bad rolls seem more serious. It seems like the base time between techs is around 6-7 projects and with recent projects being longer that's stretched the timespans involved.
 
[X] Type-2 Impulse Thruster (Type-3: Theoretical -> Experimental, Size: Standard)

We chose a Warp 8 engine with a massive lead up time. That means the next generation impulse drive isn't actually needed for a significant amount of time. As a tech rush- we'd be establishing infrastructure and production for an undercooked component that isn't fully developed when there's actually very little need for it. That's a very weird juxtaposition to us choosing to properly cook and develop our next gen Warp drive as long as necessary to get the sort of peak performance we want out of it. Committing to using a crappy and experimental impulse system now rather than similarly waiting feels bizarre.

I know the mechanics are in a bit of a weird place, but it feels especially jarring here. Do we develop technology by insisting on using experimental and poorly developed tech on a relatively inconsequential test bed? Or do we develop technology by actually refining a design until we're confident to use it? If nothing else if we've staked our colors on the Warp 8 generation of ships being revolutionary so we should probably commit to it rather than rush to implement novel tech because of it's novelty right now.
 
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3. Current system, but no bonuses and components normalize over time.
This seems like the most straightforward system to me, and the one that's truest to life. If you rush development, the best you can usually hope for is that it works as expected.

It also makes the tradeoffs clear. The upside to using prototypes would be that we get the technology early. The downside is that it's definitely going to be more expensive or complicated, and we won't know how well it's actually going to work. But we won't have to worry so much about development going forward, which makes things less complicated.
 
Honestly I kinda like the idea of prototype rolls going more, to use impulse engines with power-size axis as an example;
3 rolls -> fails, Big and less performance than expected
option for refinement the following turn:
{ } Try to reduce size
{ } try to increase power
{ } do nothing (introduce to general service as is)
with the former two as a 2-roll option. then if that fails, you get a third go, as a 1 roll check, and if you fail that you're just stuck with it; and the latter as the "the problems aren't that bad/we need this Right Now™" option.

This gives room for atypical developments like our phasers or whatnot without having to do a full dedicated design post, adds an easy "extra" penalty (in that pursuing more refinement delays the technology's introduction to general service) and provides a reasonably "realistic" portrayal of "ahead of its time" type technology that technically works, but wasn't really mature when first implemented.
 
Honestly I kinda like the idea of prototype rolls going more, to use impulse engines with power-size axis as an example;
3 rolls -> fails, Big and less performance than expected
option for refinement the following turn:
{ } Try to reduce size
{ } try to increase power
{ } do nothing (introduce to general service as is)
with the former two as a 2-roll option. then if that fails, you get a third go, as a 1 roll check, and if you fail that you're just stuck with it; and the latter as the "the problems aren't that bad/we need this Right Now™" option.

This gives room for atypical developments like our phasers or whatnot without having to do a full dedicated design post, adds an easy "extra" penalty (in that pursuing more refinement delays the technology's introduction to general service) and provides a reasonably "realistic" portrayal of "ahead of its time" type technology that technically works, but wasn't really mature when first implemented.

I think this, along with doing nothing and sending the tech out as is consigning it to a slower, but still noticeable upward tick in quality of design, would probably be a solid update to the current system. As we're already rolling to see the outcome of technological experimentation, it's more an expansion than anything, though I could see some people consider it a little too complex sometimes.
 
I don't like the idea of completely removing randomness, I also don't like the idea we'd completely remove our chance at really nailing a technology. Fair solutions sound like an annoying level of complexity though.

I guess a permanent malus for the tech isn't that different from a decreasing malus for like 5 platforms though. So even if we eventually get a 0 negative modifiers tech by that point we're already experimenting with its successor so the modifiers might as well be permanent. Burning a lot of resources or brainpower on fixing issues could eat into our ability to develop the new concepts so we just kind of live with what we got.
 
I guess a permanent malus for the tech isn't that different from a decreasing malus for like 5 platforms though. So even if we eventually get a 0 negative modifiers tech by that point we're already experimenting with its successor so the modifiers might as well be permanent. Burning a lot of resources or brainpower on fixing issues could eat into our ability to develop the new concepts so we just kind of live with what we got.

I feel like the solution to that problem is to sometimes offer somewhat 'enhanced' versions of mature technologies that would be anywhere from a bit to rather cheaper compared to trying to push the tech tree forward. Something of a 'sidegrade' compared to a straight upgrade as Sayle notes in their post.

Maybe for the Ambassador-class you want to use a super-charged Excelsior-class impulse engine because it's 50% the cost, even if one of those fancy new thrusters from Avidyne gives you +25% thrust and pushes you up the tech tree.
 
Honestly I kinda like the idea of prototype rolls going more, to use impulse engines with power-size axis as an example;
3 rolls -> fails, Big and less performance than expected
option for refinement the following turn:
{ } Try to reduce size
{ } try to increase power
{ } do nothing (introduce to general service as is)
with the former two as a 2-roll option. then if that fails, you get a third go, as a 1 roll check, and if you fail that you're just stuck with it; and the latter as the "the problems aren't that bad/we need this Right Now™" option.

This gives room for atypical developments like our phasers or whatnot without having to do a full dedicated design post, adds an easy "extra" penalty (in that pursuing more refinement delays the technology's introduction to general service) and provides a reasonably "realistic" portrayal of "ahead of its time" type technology that technically works, but wasn't really mature when first implemented.
With the current system there's only 2 "permanent" rolls for a theoretical project, the third performance roll is just for the prototype itself and doesn't apply to later versions. Adding essentially a second saving throw to the roll means a considerable odds increase.

For an experimental, it's 1/3 bad, 1/2 standard, 1/6 better. With two rolls it becomes 1/9 bad, 2/3 standard, 8/36 better, so it's pretty much always optimal to take experimental techs. Theoretical becomes about equal to what experimental is now.

I think for this to work the base rolls would need to be significantly worse, something like making a 3 a bad result instead of a standard.
 
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