A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

Karnax626 · Jul 21, 2024

Star said:
That's big if, there's also a possibility that they just bring up accusations against Biel-Tan to other Craftworlds without even approaching Iyanden catching them by surprise and making everyone else point accusatory finger against Biel-Tan and by extension against Iyanden's faction forcing them to put an united front to save face as abandoning Biel-Tan at this time without any other alternative would just leave them completely without the faction by association.

In that case it makes far more sense to hold united front with Biel-Tan and use the goodwill from Soulstones to soften any fallout, then deal with Biel-Tan in private as that way they at least keep the Major Craftworld on their side.

This is why i prefer to approach Iyanden in advance to assure them of our goodwill. That way at least Iyanden would have more time to prepare.

I'm still not seeing any reason to assume Saim-Hann would fumble it like that?

Revealing what we know to Iyanden early would just undermine Saim-Hann's own suite, seeing as how they're waiting until the full Moot starts before making it public.
If we want to throw Iyanden a lifeline then IMO the best way to do that would be to meet them today or tomorrow but don't mention BT.
Just sound them out on what specifically they want to gain from reforming the Empire, how they plan on achieving it, why they think it's feasible etc. Then when Biel-Tan's actions are revealed they'll know we're still willing to talk to them (Iyanden) in spite of that.

vsh said:
I think they only actually attacked exodites for now.

The update confirmed that they've been strongarming Craftworlds as well.

Mechanis said:
Aerellian Lightningblade, it seems, has wasted no time in throwing his weight around and showing no qualms about coercing what he wants at gunpoint from other Craftworlds in the region, and he guessed at once one of the things you were meeting for.

Alratan · Jul 21, 2024

10ebbor10 said:
The big problem with tech trades is that the vast majority of stuff is not trivially traded. It's not some blueprints that you hand over, it's insitutional experience, learned skills from bonesingers, and so on.

Still, I think an exchange program should be viable and good.

Even if tech trades take centuries to actually implement, setting the principle is what I think is important. It's about saying that we're all in this together and that we care more about victory as a species than in comparison petty games focused relative power between factions.

It's that message which I think will give us a boost of soft power in the short turn - and it's that soft power that is our best protection from other Eldar factions, and possibly from severe threats from others.

Also, it taking decades is a good thing. Having exchange parties of influential representatives from other Craftworlds visiting and learning from us is also an incredibly powerful soft power vector, as it should be a continuing source of influence.

Having other Craftworlds wanting to get around to their turn to tech share also gives them a strong incentive to make sure we survive and have the resources to teach them, so they're more likely to volunteer to help defend us rather than us having to pay on a case by case basis.

I'm also not sure how much training is needed for things that are seeker projects rather than things like expanding exotics production.

Karnax626 said:
The update confirmed that they've been strongarming Craftworlds as well.

That doesn't say anyone has been attacked. Just intimidated with the potential threat of attack, possibly without any explicit threats, just relying on what the target's own seers have foreseen as possible.

They were being extorted, not mugged, I think.

Copperscale · Jul 21, 2024

what we really need is this: The deathsword

A captured echo of the death of the universe.

It was used to wound a nascent Slaanesh.

It would probably kill Kairos easily enough. We would just have to catch him.

Prospalz · Jul 21, 2024

Vaul-blade mentioned in part 1/3 prolly could do it. The issue is getting the wielder in the same room as most paranoid and farseeing demons of 40k.

vsh · Jul 21, 2024

Prospalz said:
Vaul-blade mentioned in part 1/3 prolly could do it. The issue is getting the wielder in the same room as most paranoid and farseeing demons of 40k.

I think Cegorath + the surefire way to drip misinformation right into his brainwarp would do the trick. He's forced to see what Eldar scry for.

Copperscale · Jul 21, 2024

Prospalz said:
Vaul-blade mentioned in part 1/3 prolly could do it. The issue is getting the wielder in the same room as most paranoid and farseeing demons of 40k.

Well, catch Kairos in a knockoff tesseract labyrinth, and you've got yourself a start.

If we got ahold of Petal cutter, we might be able to reverse engineer something that looks like a Doomblade though.

BeepSmile · Jul 21, 2024

[ ] Plan: To Create and Exploit Opportunities v.2, The Independents - And set up communication
-[ ][FIRST] Send out feelers among the Asuryani, see how things have been going on their end, and if any issues have cropped up on their end that we might be able to help with. Their path isn't ours, but that doesn't mean we don't share kinship.
-[ ][SECOND] Canvas through the Independents, see who we might be able to court to join our camp, anyone who might have need for assistance that we can offer--ideally without breaking our backs trying, but we have a large number of tools at this point, and all of us together are stronger than each of us apart.
-[ ][THIRD] Meet the Adaptionists about setting up a system/process for opt-in information sharing regarding webway mapping and realspace scouting, and possibly also scry-information (so as to save scry-AP and verification purposese). Mention that we hope to expand this to all Aeldari who aren't [murderous bullies] or that facilitate [murderous bully activities] (but express 'murderous bullies' in a more politic way).

If this plan gains traction, I am hoping for next turn's plan to look like:
[1] Open slot for others to meet us
[2] Expand the suggestion of setting up sharing of Webway-mapping, realspace scouting and scry-information sharing with Preventionists/Saim-Hann (I'd suggest the Survivalists, but the Preventionists have a much stronger anti Biel-Tan animus)
[3] ???

The Froggy Ninja · Jul 21, 2024

Alratan said:
There's no evidence Biel-Tan wanted to enslave anyone that I can see.

They wanted to play bandit, stealing relics and archives of knowledge.

That's bad, and in some ways may have left Craftworlds more vulnerable than if they had conquered them, but it's not chaining anyone to any anvils that I can see.

So, putting aside the fact that they've been press-ganging Exodites which is definitionally enslavement, I meant it when I said Holy War.

Khaine was indeed a literal guy who personally broke the limbs of fellow literal guy Vaul and actually chained him to an anvil.

Khorne was also the concept of war, and Vaul is also the concept of industry and craftsmanship, and his crippling and enslavement was also an allegory for the subversion of industry as a tool for the common good into exclusively being a vehicle to more effectively wage war.

Khaine worshipers beating the shit out of Vaul worshippers and stealing an industrial relic literally called the Forge of Vaul is thematically synchronous with the crippling and enslavement of Vaul by Khaine, even moreso considering our revelations about the connection between the Eldar and their gods.

Alratan said:
And Kinslaying may well be something that has lost a lot of moral impact in the sixty five million years when Eldar didn't die when they were killed, and it may take time for the habit of it being wrong to reestablish. Eldar could well have killed each other in games or training exercises or because it was a fast way of getting out of a rough spot without a single moral qualm only a couple of decades back.

Okay except (even putting aside that Bloody Handed Khaine is named such fifteen millennia ago specifically so no one forgets his kinslaying and that it was bad) nobody here is going to make light of feeding our brethren to the demon god that killed and ate all but three members of our pantheon and destroyed our civilization.

edofthesquid · Jul 21, 2024

I think we should consider some level of coordinating with Saim-Henn, because we both have pretty big things and frankly we don't want to distract from each other. Even just giving them a heads up that we have a bombshell potentially bigger than Biel-tan misbehaving might let them better prepare for handling them (though all this is somewhat dependent on the actually structure of the Aeldmoot proper - if there's a long enough stretch of time involved it might work out)

Star · Jul 21, 2024

Karnax626 said:
I'm still not seeing any reason to assume Saim-Hann would fumble it like that?

Letting Saim-Han bring this out on moot proper means that they probably won't even warn Iyanden and will bring entire thing before anyone attacking Biel-Tan and Iyanden's faction. Even if this won't be directed at Iyanden as of now they are allies with Biel-Tan and won't just be able to back of suddenly. What happened otl was gradual. Here with sudden revelation Iyanden will need to make snap decisions and given how proud Eldar are they'll attempt to salvage this by shielding Biel-Tan to at least avoid complete isolation.

Generally we are overestimating Saim-Hann's goodwill towards Iyanden, they are both major Craftworld's and while both are competing for preeminence among Eldar. Even if Saim-Han doesn't attack Iyanden that doesn't mean that they won't take a chance to humiliate them indirectly and to weaken them.

Karnax626 said:
Revealing what we know to Iyanden early would just undermine Saim-Hann's own suite, seeing as how they're waiting until the full Moot starts before making it public.

I don't see how warning Iyanden would undermine Saim-Han in their attempt to go against Biel-Tan. Biel-Tan will get cooked anyway, by warning Iyanden we are at least preventing them from getting cooked as well by association.

Karnax626 said:
If we want to throw Iyanden a lifeline then IMO the best way to do that would be to meet them today or tomorrow but don't mention BT.

I don't think that talking to them courtly and then nodding pur head as being one of threatened Craftworld's by Biel-Tan will be productive as that shows that we knew of this and still didn't come to Iyanden for help, or otherwise.

Entire point of mentioning Biel-Tan is not to save Biel-Tan but to help Iyanden save their face in all of this and to give them dignified exit. If Saim-Han brings this on Moot proper and catches Iyanden out of guard that won't happen and Iyanden will be humiliated by association.

Karnax626 said:
Just sound them out on what specifically they want to gain from reforming the Empire, how they plan on achieving it, why they think it's feasible etc. Then when Biel-Tan's actions are revealed they'll know we're still willing to talk to them (Iyanden) in spite of that.

As i said it won't really have as same effect. Actually warning them achieves two things. It helps them to save their face and to not get hit by association and also makes them grateful to us.

Generally the best option for us going forward with Iyanden is to warn them about Biel-Tan's actions, thus preventing then from being publicly abd politically outplayed abd humiliated due to Biel-Tan's actions.

Alratan · Jul 21, 2024

In terms of our bigger ambitions, we'r not here to continue or escalate the conflict with Biel Tan, or to try to claim some sort of moral victory or publicly humiliate them.

That seems deeply self-indulgent and counterproductive in the face of the threat that we all, including Biel Tan, face.

Indeed, it's a lesser version of the same form of selfishness and misplaced priorities that probably lead Biel Tan to try this in the first place.

I think it might make sense to want Saim-Han about what we've learned so they don't get themselves into a position of spending too much fighting a threat from Biel Tan that actually no longer exists, which might make it harder for them to team up with other people against the real enemy.

The Froggy Ninja said:
So, putting aside the fact that they've been press-ganging Exodites which is definitionally enslavement, I meant it when I said Holy War.

Khaine was indeed a literal guy who personally broke the limbs of fellow literal guy Vaul and actually chained him to an anvil.

Khorne was also the concept of war, and Vaul is also the concept of industry and craftsmanship, and his crippling and enslavement was also an allegory for the subversion of industry as a tool for the common good into exclusively being a vehicle to more effectively wage war.

Khaine worshipers beating the shit out of Vaul worshippers and stealing an industrial relic literally called the Forge of Vaul is thematically synchronous with the crippling and enslavement of Vaul by Khaine, even moreso considering our revelations about the connection between the Eldar and their gods.

Okay except (even putting aside that Bloody Handed Khaine is named such specifically so no one forgets his kinslaying and that it was bad) nobody here is going to make light of feeding our brethren to the demon god that killed and ate all but three members of our pantheon and destroyed our civilization.

I don't believe that Biel Tan are anymore Khaine worshipers than anyone else here.

They're not a Wych Cult, you only find them in the Webway.

Sure, Khaine may have been partially rehabilitated amongst the Craftworld Eldar because of his sacrifice, but before the Fall he was apparently deeply unpopular. Biel Tan is more warlike and militaristic, but I'm absolutely certain they'd claim to be following in the path of Eldanesh, not of Khaine. I think their chosen iconography is of Asuryan, and that's more of a reflection of who they claim to be.

If you want to beat up some of the surviving Khaine worshippers, you'd need to find one of the Webway Realms where they're still having gladiatorial combats and honing the arts of murder.

Copperscale · Jul 21, 2024

Vote is open

Karnax626 · Jul 21, 2024

Star said:
I don't see how warning Iyanden would undermine Saim-Han in their attempt to go against Biel-Tan. Biel-Tan will get cooked anyway, by warning Iyanden we are at least preventing them from getting cooked as well by association.

Because Iyanden and Biel-Tan are allies, so if we warn the former the first thing they'll do is go to the latter and ask them about it. It'd give them advance warning which means Saim-Hann loses the advantage of surprise.

Star said:
Generally the best option for us going forward with Iyanden is to warn them about Biel-Tan's actions, thus preventing then from being publicly abd politically outplayed abd humiliated due to Biel-Tan's actions.

I mean, if Iyanden get humiliated by this that's not on us, that's on Biel-Tan. They're big boys, they can sort it out between themselves.

Like, Iyanden shouldn't be our priority over ensuring Biel-Tan cuts this shit out.

The Froggy Ninja · Jul 21, 2024

Alratan said:
I don't believe that Biel Tan are anymore Khaine worshipers than anyone else here.

Counterpoint:

The Lexiconum said:
Biel-Tan places an unusual importance on the role of the warrior within their society. Whereas in many craftworlds the Farseers hold sway over important decision, on Biel-Tan a warrior council, referred to as the "Court of the Young King," appears to be at least the equal of the Farseers.

This cadre reveres the idol of the Aeldari war god Khaela Mensha Khaine and taken its name from the ceremony in which they awaken the Avatar of Khaine. A strong and dynamic political faction, it is often the court that makes the decision to go to war or negotiate as they see fit.

Every member of the court is an Aspect Warrior trapped in one particular path. Unable to move to another path and gain new experiences, these Exarchs as they are known, are perhaps the most potent political force acting in Biel-Tan as well as its most deadly warriors.

So… like, sure, the Aspect Shrines and Paths haven't been codified yet (maybe, as the GM has stated, the timeline on that sort of thing is super fucked up) but the fact that the political structure they end up settling on after ten thousand years is "a bunch of warriors who embraces specific aspects of Khaine so much that they literally went insane, organized in a counsel named after the ritual sacrifice to Khaine used to summon one of his Avatars" I think it's pretty safe to say they have strong Khaine leanings.

Star · Jul 21, 2024

Karnax626 said:
I mean, if Iyanden get humiliated by this that's not on us, that's on Biel-Tan. They're big boys, they can sort it out between themselves.

Like, Iyanden shouldn't be our priority over ensuring Biel-Tan cuts this shit out.

By that logic Iyanden shouldn't have bothered to rein in Biel-Tan since if Biel-Tan wants to cause trouble that's not their problem. That's weary simplicist and more importantly divisive way to view things and division is last thing Eldari need going into this Moot.

Other thing is that we shouldn't let other Craftworld's to completely dictate our policies and our approach to the problem. At the end of the day Saim-Han has its own interests and it champions its own position. We on other hand need to look for our own interests and building positive ties with every (sane) major Craftworld as it is in our interest.

Ultimately our goal here should be to foster unity and to manage a joint condemnation of Biel-Tan opposed to letting every single actor push their goals. We also want to exit this with more friends and with as little enemies.

Karnax626 said:
Because Iyanden and Biel-Tan are allies, so if we warn the former the first thing they'll do is go to the latter and ask them about it. It'd give them advance warning which means Saim-Hann loses the advantage of surprise.

Iyanden and Biel-Tan obviously have different views on rebuilding the Empire given how otl had gone, so putting them in same basket isn't correct, if anything by doing that you are basically ensuring that two out of five major Craftworld's are antagonized on this Moot.

Other thing is that even if they tell anything to Biel-Tan that won't change a thing as Saim-Han already has strong case against Biel-Tan and by once they bring it up at the Moot Biel-Tan will have to suffer the consequences of its actions.

What telling Iyanden will cause is them being able to distance themselves from Biel-Tan and for them to better coordinate with rest of the Craftworld's on current situation without being catched by surprise allowing them to at least save face and us to preserve unity of the Moot for a real problem.

Profilozof · Jul 21, 2024

So I just noticed that this moot would probably be also known as the trial of Archon Aerellian Lightningblade, if not for us dropping the bomb in form of Isha being alive and held prisoner by Nurgle and us discovering the 3 curses.

That aside, my plan is a modification of @Alectai 's
[X] Plan: To Create Opportunities and see what the ember of old knows
-[X][FIRST]Canvas through the Independents, see who we might be able to court to join our camp, anyone who might have need for assistance that we can offer--ideally without breaking our backs trying, but we have a large number of tools at this point, and all of us together are stronger than each of us apart.
-[X][SECOND] Send out feelers among the Asuryani, see how things have been going on their end, and if any issues have cropped up on their end that we might be able to help with. Their path isn't ours, but that doesn't mean we don't share kinship.
-[X][THIRD] Iyanden: The prosperous Iyanden is not Biel-Tan; see if they are/were aware of the misdeeds of its ally and, if not, try to encourage them to look into it. You may not see Dominion's return as something that could work, but Iyanden is still kin who doesn't deserve to suffer for Biel-Tan's misdeeds. And if it causes them to abandon Biel-Tan to deal with the consequences of their actions? All the better.

Copperscale · Jul 21, 2024

Profilozof said:
That aside, my plan is a modification of @Alectai 's

You can vote already.

Alratan · Jul 21, 2024

Something I think that we as a voting base may not have decided is what are we here for.

Are we here to make sure that Biel Tan is punished for future-crime and because we hate that the threat of them made us feel so vulnerable that we want to damage them as much as we can?

Or are we here to do our best to ensure that the Eldar overcome the Curses as best they can and recover as much of their lost power and freedom as is possible?

Those two goals are probably in conflict.

If we want to do what's long term most likely to lead the Eldar as a species and us as a Craftworld, we're probably best off if Biel Tan isn't publicly humiliated. If this entire episode is thrown down the memory hole and everyone quietly pretends it never happened/or was going to happen, a minimum of face is lost and it's easier for people to work together, or at least not at active cross-purposes, in the very long term. We don't want them to suffer the consequences of their potential actions if that consumes resources and attention better spent on more urgent problems.

Without knowledge of the Curses and the potential to start working to solve them, Saim-Han would rationally want the Aeldmoot to be about drawing a bright line around Biel Tan and calling them out.

With the knowledge about the Curses, Biel Tan's behaviour is literally yesterday's problem. We should try to help them avoid getting themselves into a position where they're stuck on solving that rather than having the flexibility to switch tracks.

And, in many ways, Biel Tan attacking us because they were greedy is a much easier problem to deal with long term than if they were attacking us for ideological reasons or personal hatred.

You can deal with a greedy person who makes a poor decision by appealing to that very greed and showing them a more profitable way to get the the kind of things they want much more easily than someone motivated by ideology or animus.

We just have to avoid falling into that trap ourselves.

Profilozof · Jul 21, 2024

IronFist said:
You can vote already.

I know, but I find it to be slightly in bad fashion when @Alectai who wrote effective 2/3 of a plan I will post is asleep

Candesce · Jul 21, 2024

Profilozof said:
That aside, my plan is a modification of @Alectai 's

Looks fine to me. I might swap the Independents and Asuryani in order, just so we have the (probable) information on the trouble Biel-Tan has been causing Independents when we go talk to the Asuryani, but that's not a big deal I think.

I'm considering a variation on this where, rather than explicitly telling Iyanden to shape up, we instead go to talk to them about technological sharing and the concerns of losing the various treasures of the Eldar, where the subtext is we're extending them an olive branch without telling them explicitly what the branch is for; they'll figure it out soon enough. But that might be a little politically subtle for "Feanor."

Copperscale · Jul 21, 2024

Candesce said:
Looks fine to me. I might swap the Independents and Asuryani in order, just so we have the (probable) information on the trouble Biel-Tan has been causing Independents when we go talk to the Asuryani, but that's not a big deal I think.

So, basically my plan

Reposting for convenience:

[X] Plan: Political moves
-[X][FIRST] Meet with the Neutral and Independent craftworlds. Identify the notables, and extend a helping hand, within reason. Gather more evidence about Biel-tan's misdeeds.
-[X][SECOND] Make a peace offering to the Asuryani. Acknowledge their paths as a functioning interim solution, and hint at having a clearer picture of the magnitude of the solution required than you did twenty years ago, which will be useful in making something more effective.
-[X][THIRD] Reveal the extent of Biel-Tan's violent rapacity to Iyanden. Give them a day's advance notice to attempt some political face-saving moves.

Alectai · Jul 21, 2024

[X] Plan: To Create Opportunities and see what the ember of old knows

Waking up, but I think there's a good argument to be had here.

Candesce · Jul 21, 2024

[x] Plan: To Create Opportunities and see what the ember of old knows

BeepSmile · Jul 21, 2024

I'm against talking to Lyanden about Biel-Tan.
I don't want Biel-Tan to get an opportunity to spin shit or risk undermining whatever Saim-Han is planning, especially consider we could use that slot to do... basically anything else.
---
[X] Plan: To Create and Exploit Opportunities v.2, The Independents - And set up communication
-[X][FIRST] Send out feelers among the Asuryani, see how things have been going on their end, and if any issues have cropped up on their end that we might be able to help with. Their path isn't ours, but that doesn't mean we don't share kinship.
-[X][SECOND] Canvas through the Independents, see who we might be able to court to join our camp, anyone who might have need for assistance that we can offer--ideally without breaking our backs trying, but we have a large number of tools at this point, and all of us together are stronger than each of us apart.
-[X][THIRD] Meet the Adaptionists about setting up a system/process for opt-in information sharing regarding webway mapping and realspace scouting, and possibly also scry-information (so as to save scry-AP and verification purposes). Mention that we hope to expand this to all Aeldari who aren't [murderous thieves] (i.e. Biel-Tan), (but express 'murderous thieves' in a more politic way).

Star · Jul 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Political moves

[X] Plan: To Create Opportunities and see what the ember of old knows

Well i believe i mostly made my case about warning Iyanden. In short political benefits from Iyanden's gratitude, helping Iyanden save face and greater unity of the Moot and going out of it.

As for why now is good time to notify Iyanden? Well it's to give them enough time to digest and verify the information as well as to give them enough time to find a way out without disgracing themselves.

Otherwise beside Asuryani and Independents being in different order, plus somewhat different wording i feel this to be same plan. No offense to anyone BTW.

BeepSmile said:
I'm firmly against talking to Lyanden about Biel-Tan.
I don't want Biel-Tan to get an opportunity to spin shit or risk undermining whatever Saim-Han is planning, especially consider we could use that slot to do... basically anything else.

At this point it's already to late for them, this is about Iyanden now. Even if Biel-Tan attempts anything by this point Iyanden will check out the claims anyway.

I also said it before but Biel-Tan cannot erase what it done over one day, not when Saim-Han is gathering evidence and is about to share it with the others.

A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

The Blade Will Never Die

The Blade Will Never Die

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion